Passport Clarification Needed..

[TPKeller]

Theoretical points of discussion will only serve to unnecessarily confuse people who aren't familiar with the requirements and how they're enforced. Thanks to your post, for the next five years we'll be answering questions that start "I thought I read on Cruise Critic that I only had to have any type of copy of my birth certificate..."

 

Thanks for nothing. :rolleyes:

Feel free to report me and have it deleted.

 

Where else would you propose such things be discussed?

 

The law is ambiguous, at best. Bad law serves no one. Even worse by an order of magnitude is allowing bureaucrats the authority to interpret bad law at their own fleeting discretion.

 

Every DHS or State Department rule should be traceable back to a law, and one that clearly justifies those rules. It appears to me that this one might not. When government agencies are no longer accountable to the people via the laws enacted by their duly elected representatives, it is no longer the United States of America. I don't know about you, but that is not something I'm willing to just roll over and give up.

 

Theron

[njhorseman]

Feel free to report me and have it deleted.

 

Where else would you propose such things be discussed?

 

The law is ambiguous, at best. Bad law serves no one. Even worse by an order of magnitude is allowing bureaucrats the authority to interpret bad law at their own fleeting discretion.

 

Every DHS or State Department rule should be traceable back to a law, and one that clearly justifies those rules. It appears to me that this one might not. When government agencies are no longer accountable to the people via the laws enacted by their duly elected representatives, it is no longer the United States of America. I don't know about you, but that is not something I'm willing to just roll over and give up.

 

Theron

 

If you want to discuss this sort of thing, start a separate thread, which will disappear from the front of the board once people are done discussing it, rather than mucking up this one, which as a "sticky" stays at the top of the board.

 

While you're at it, you could cut the political BS about government agencies not being accountable out of the discussion. I'm sure there are plenty of politically-oriented sites on the Internet where you can bellow about that to your heart's content. This site is about cruising, and on this thread we're trying to answer cruisers' passport-related questions.

[TPKeller]

If you want to discuss this sort of thing, start a separate thread, which will disappear from the front of the board once people are done discussing it, rather than mucking up this one, which as a "sticky" stays at the top of the board.

 

While you're at it, you could cut the political BS about government agencies not being accountable out of the discussion. I'm sure there are plenty of politically-oriented sites on the Internet where you can bellow about that to your heart's content. This site is about cruising, and on this thread we're trying to answer cruisers' passport-related questions.

Quite the contrary. I am trying to determine the intent of the law, and whether the agencies who are tasked with implementing and enforcing it are doing so properly. If I can find evidence that they are not, then I will take steps to see that they do.

 

Theron

[oregonrebel]

So i just discovered that my US passport expired last month. I do however have a valid passport from Norway. I live in the states but have kept up my passport from norway since i have dual citizenship. It shoudnt be a problem to use my Norwegian passport even though I live in the states should it? My wife is American if that makes any difference. I just would rather save the $140 to use on the ship instead of renewing my US passport...

Anyone have any input??

[njhorseman]

So i just discovered that my US passport expired last month. I do however have a valid passport from Norway. I live in the states but have kept up my passport from norway since i have dual citizenship. It shoudnt be a problem to use my Norwegian passport even though I live in the states should it? My wife is American if that makes any difference. I just would rather save the $140 to use on the ship instead of renewing my US passport...

Anyone have any input??

 

There's always the possibility that using a Norwegian passport would subject you to a visa requirement in some country you'll be visiting that wouldn't apply to a US citizen.

 

For that matter I can envision a problem with US CBP when you reenter the US and you're asked why you're visiting and how long you plan to stay and you tell them you're also a US citizen.

 

Maybe someone who has personal experience with this will disagree, but if it were me, I'd renew my US passport.

Edited April 10, 2011 by njhorseman

[cherylandtk]

I agree that using your Norwegian passport to enter the US could create problems. You would be treated as a non-citizen and expected to have applied for and received advance clearance from the visa waiver ESTA system, as well as showing proof that you intend to leave the US after your 'visit'.

 

I know you want to save the $140, but using your Norwegian passport is not the answer. Could you use instead your proof of US citizenship by one of the other accepted means? You did not mention how you came about your US citizenship, but if you are on a closed loop cruise, that might be a better way to both save the $140 and leave and enter as a US citizen.

[oregonrebel]

Thanks for your input. I was born in Norway to a Norwegian mother and a American father. At that time i received my US citizenship and have had it since. I lived in the US for the last 25 years with the exception of living in Norway 2005-2006.

I of course have a Oregon DL and my birth cert. and such. Im such a cheapskate so maybe i will just get the passport card and then also carry my Norwegian passport if there is any emergencies, such as having to fly from Belize to Oregon or something like that...

Well, its food for thought....

thanks for your input!!!

[mapsmith]

So i just discovered that my US passport expired last month. I do however have a valid passport from Norway. I live in the states but have kept up my passport from norway since i have dual citizenship. It shoudnt be a problem to use my Norwegian passport even though I live in the states should it? My wife is American if that makes any difference. I just would rather save the $140 to use on the ship instead of renewing my US passport...

Anyone have any input??

 

 

Since the government is not shutting down, Call the Passport Office (or go to their website) and ask your questions.

 

HOWEVER, I believe it is ILLEGAL for a US Citizen to use a foreign passport to enter the United States--even if you have dual citizenship. Using a Norwegian Passport to return "home" could have unexpected consequences at the border.

[oregonrebel]

thanks for your help... I will call and check on that. I have always used my Norwegian Passport to fly to norway and the US to fly back... I always feel nervous though about having 2 passports on me....

[cherylandtk]

I was born in Norway to a Norwegian mother and a American father.

Then you probably have a form FS-240, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, which is the document that foreign-born US citizens use in place of a US birth certificate. Take that with you on the cruise, and it will be just like using a US birth certificate. Won't need your Norwegian passport unless there is an emergency and you have to fly.

[InvernessNessie]

I am also a dual national and just had my US passport renewed as we are travelling to the States in July. It cost me $110. The consulate told me it is now illegal for a US citizen who is a dual national to travel to the US with the passport of another country. A new passport is much cheaper than a lawyer's bill...

[vjmatty]

I am also a dual national and just had my US passport renewed as we are travelling to the States in July. It cost me $110. The consulate told me it is now illegal for a US citizen who is a dual national to travel to the US with the passport of another country. A new passport is much cheaper than a lawyer's bill...

 

This is why it is better to just use the EU passport when going into and between EU countries... when you come back into the US it is usually quicker to use your US passport anyway.

[njhorseman]

This is why it is better to just use the EU passport when going into and between EU countries... when you come back into the US it is usually quicker to use your US passport anyway.

 

EU passport to go between EU countries? If you're in the Schengen area there's no passport needed to travel from one Schengen country to another. I realize that the compostions of the EU and the Schengen countries are not identical, but it as almost the same group of countries in both.

Edited May 15, 2011 by njhorseman

[vjmatty]

EU passport to go between EU countries? If you're in the Schengen area there's no passport needed to travel from one Schengen country to another.

 

I have had to show my passport when flying from UK to France or UK to Ireland. However, on a codeshare flight I have not had to show it in connecting airports.

[njhorseman]

I have had to show my passport when flying from UK to France or UK to Ireland. However, on a codeshare flight I have not had to show it in connecting airports.

 

UK and Ireland are not in the Schengen area. They are the main countries in the EU that are not part of Schengen. Your experience has nothing to do with whether a flight is a codeshare. It has to do with connecting in a Schengen country when you've come from a Schengen country. You go through passport control when you first enter the Schengen area from an non-Schengen country, but there is no further passport control when you continue onto another Schengen country.

[vjmatty]

UK and Ireland are not in the Schengen area. They are the main countries in the EU that are not part of Schengen. Your experience has nothing to do with whether a flight is a codeshare. It has to do with connecting in a Schengen country when you've come from a Schengen country. You go through passport control when you first enter the Schengen area from an non-Schengen country, but there is no further passport control when you continue onto another Schengen country.

 

Now you mention it.... last year we had a connecting flight through HEL en route to HAM, and we only had passport check in HEL. However, in HEL we had to go through security when getting OFF the plane, which I thought was strange :confused:

[lindyg]

If I remember right, your passport needs to be valid six months beyond a sailing date.

 

I am wondering if I recall this fact correctly. We sail in November and our passports expire in 2012 so am thinking we need to renew them soon.

Is that possible ahead of 2012?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Linda

[TPKeller]

If I remember right, your passport needs to be valid six months beyond a sailing date.

 

I am wondering if I recall this fact correctly. We sail in November and our passports expire in 2012 so am thinking we need to renew them soon.

Is that possible ahead of 2012?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Linda

The "six month" thing is one of my pet peeves... If my passport is only good for 9 and a half years, then why am I paying for a 10 year passport. The State Department should make them valid for 10 and a half years.

 

Anyway...

 

I don't know if this is still the case, hopefully someone can shed some authoritative light... if you are using your passport only to prove US citizenship, then your passport expiration date should not matter, as citizenship does not "expire".

 

If you are using your passport for entry into a country that requires you to have a passport, then that is where the six month thing kicks in.

 

If anyone can provide confirmation or refutation of this with regard to any new rules, please do so... I would personally think an expired passport is better proof of citizenship than a Birth Certificate, and they do still take those for the US based closed-loop cruises.

 

Theron

[njhorseman]

If I remember right, your passport needs to be valid six months beyond a sailing date.

 

I am wondering if I recall this fact correctly. We sail in November and our passports expire in 2012 so am thinking we need to renew them soon.

Is that possible ahead of 2012?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Linda

 

The "six month" thing is one of my pet peeves... If my passport is only good for 9 and a half years, then why am I paying for a 10 year passport. The State Department should make them valid for 10 and a half years.

 

Anyway...

 

I don't know if this is still the case, hopefully someone can shed some authoritative light... if you are using your passport only to prove US citizenship, then your passport expiration date should not matter, as citizenship does not "expire".

 

If you are using your passport for entry into a country that requires you to have a passport, then that is where the six month thing kicks in.

 

If anyone can provide confirmation or refutation of this with regard to any new rules, please do so... I would personally think an expired passport is better proof of citizenship than a Birth Certificate, and they do still take those for the US based closed-loop cruises.

 

Theron

 

US Passports are good for 10 years, it's just that there are some (by no means all) countries that require your passport to be valid for at least six months beyond your date of entry into their country. This is not a US or State Department issue...it is an issue of the laws of a country you may be visiting.

 

Without knowing where lindyg is sailing, the question can't be answered. If this is a typical closed loop Western Hemisphere cruise departing from the US, you only need a valid passport...in fact you don't actually need any passport...a birth certificate and government-issued photo ID will do...so if you don't need any passport, if you have a passport it sure as heck doesn't need to have 6 months remaining validity. On the other hand, if lindyg is sailing to some exotic locale, there may be a country on the itinerary that requires your passport to have six months validity remaining.

 

Note: You can't use an expired passport for a closed loop cruise under the new rules...it has to be a valid passport...but there is no 6 month requirement.

Edited June 4, 2011 by njhorseman

[TPKeller]

Note: You can't use an expired passport for a closed loop cruise under the new rules...it has to be a valid passport...but there is no 6 month requirement.

If that is indeed true, that is one bone-headed rule, as I noted earlier, citizenship does not "expire", and obviously an expired passport is going to be a more recent proof of citizenship than a birth certificate, which is currently accepted.

 

Do you happen to have a cite for that?

 

Theron

[njhorseman]

If that is indeed true, that is one bone-headed rule, as I noted earlier, citizenship does not "expire", and obviously an expired passport is going to be a more recent proof of citizenship than a birth certificate, which is currently accepted.

 

Do you happen to have a cite for that?

 

Theron

 

The closed loop cruise regulation is written as an exception to the rule that otherwise requires a passport for international travel. The exception specifies the documents that are acceptable for proof of citizenship and an expired passport is not one of them. The documents specified are birth certificate, Consular Report of Birth Abroad, or Certificate of Naturalization:

 

The US regulation is 22 CFR § 53.2 (b)(2) which reads as follows:

 

Quote:

Exceptions.

(b) A U.S. citizen is not required to bear a valid U.S. passport to enter or depart the United States:

(2) When traveling entirely within the Western Hemisphere on a cruise ship, and when the U.S. citizen boards the cruise ship at a port or place within the United States and returns on the return voyage of the same cruise ship to the same United States port or place from where he or she originally departed. That U.S. citizen may present a government-issued photo identification document in combination with either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services before entering the United States; if the U.S. citizen is under the age of 16, he or she may present either an original or a copy of his or her birth certificate, a Consular Report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services;

[cherylandtk]

Theron, the former rules, prior to WHTI, used to mention the use of an expired passport being accepted as proof of citizenship for some travel as long as it was expired less than five years. That wording has been removed, although if you can find an old CFR citation you might find the words. It would be under the contiguous countries exception. (Am I having a deja vu moment or didn't we already have similar discussion about this?)

[GoingWithTheFlow]

Thanks to reading this thread, I realized I needed to renew my passport. Since our cruise is to the Mex. Riviera, yes, I know I can use my birth certificate & drivers license, but I thought it best to renew anyway. I did not know about the 6 month requirement!

 

On a different but related note, my husband who is British and has a U.S. resident card, forgot to bring that card with him when we went on an Alaska cruise a few years ago. He had his U.K. passport, but not the card!!! When the bus (transfer) got to the Vancouver border, he was escorted off the bus by a surly young woman who angrily told him he might have to fly home! :eek:

 

Luckily for him, there was a stamp in his passport with his resident number on it from the last time he returned to the U.S. so they could track his status and confirm his U.S. residency. Not sure exactly how that happened to begin with, but if it had not been for that stamp, he would have not been able to sail, because you see, we live in HAWAII! That would have been a long swim back home to get that card. :rolleyes:

 

So if you or a friend/family member have one of these, don't forget that U.S. RESIDENT card!! It's just as important as your passport.

Edited August 2, 2011 by GoingWithTheFlow

[cherylandtk]

Flow-Yes, your hubby should be reminded that he is required to carry his green card on him at all times...which is probably why the border agent got so upset.

 

A green card is issued to all permanent residents as proof that they are authorized to live and work in the United States. If you are a permanent resident age 18 or older, you are required to have a valid green card in your possession at all times.

From http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=f1903a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f1903a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

[GoingWithTheFlow]

Flow-Yes, your hubby should be reminded that he is required to carry his green card on him at all times...which is probably why the border agent got so upset.

 

From http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=f1903a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f1903a4107083210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

 

 

Yes, he knows this NOW! I thought he understood this because he always had it in his wallet before, but he changed to a new a wallet around that time and for some reason did not put the card in! Won't happen again that's for sure. :)