Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[dougnewmanatsea]

I don't know a whole lot about davits. There are a lot of different designs, but it's all very complicated and technical and I suspect nobody really knows or cares other than people who buy, sell, maintain or use the things. I do not fall into any of those categories. I just hope they work if I ever need them ;) .

 

As for the boat that sank in Greece recently, it was really not a "ship" in any sense of the word, just a little day cruiser. I'm frankly astonished the news even went beyond the local level - it must have been a slow news day.

[MMDown Under]

From time to time I have enjoyed reading this thread as I appreciate the cruising/shipping knowledge of the participants.

 

I was wondering if you can answer a question for me? Are some modern ships just not designed for rough seas ocean cruising?

 

A person has written a letter to the editor, stating that a recent cruise around both islands of New Zealand with P&O Sun Princess as "the trip from hell". Seems the ship left Sydney a day late. Then they were left on the boat for an extra 24 hours at Dunedin and missed ports of call at Christchurch and Wellington. The ship arrived back in Sydney 9 hours late (after being told it would be 5 hours late).

 

Was this just a unfortunate case of extremely bad weather, or was this ship's design inappropriate for rough seas ocean cruising?

 

Way back when, I have cruised in extremely rough seas, but, on each occasion, the ship just ploughed through, with no ports missed.

[dougnewmanatsea]

While there are certainly cruise ships not designed for rough seas - river cruise ships for example ;) - that is certainly not the case for a ship like SUN PRINCESS or any other major cruise ship.

 

It is reckless to go too fast in bad weather in even the most seaworthy ship.

 

I have no idea if there were factors other than bad weather causing the delays, but if they were caused by bad weather, that does not reflect poorly on the seaworthiness of the ship.

[MMDown Under]

Thanks.

[Druke I]

I tend to disagree a bit with doug's post re ships and rough seas.

 

Hull fineness has a huge effect on ride in rough seas. Hull fineness has been defined as hull length/beam ratio and draft.

 

Gross generalization, but a longer thinner hull tends to cut through waves, while a shorter beamier hull tends to ride over the wave tops, increasing the pitching motion. Of course, frequency of waves and size of troughs has a large influence on ride.

 

Larger cruise ships often have shallower draft, to enable the ship to enter more harbors. Hand in hand with shallower draft is the flatter bottoms of cruise ships opposed to liners.

 

Princess' Sun class ships (and Grand class also) do not ride as well in rough seas as the former Royal Princess (now P&O UK Artemis) or the former Regal Princess (now P&O Au Pacific Dawn).

 

Incidently, the Tasman Sea does have a reputation for being rough, although the three times I have crossed it the seas have been relatively smooth.

[Conte Di Savoia]

While modern day ships are seaworthy, I think the change from deep draft ships, such as QE2 and France to the shallower draft variety, has made a difference in the way ships ride the waves. Some years ago I left New York for Bermuda on QE2 just as a hurricane was passing off the coast. The captain held us in the harbor for a few extra hours before heading out into the Atlantic. The waves were still significant but QE2 plowed her way through without hesitation. We arrived in Hamilton on time while Celebrity's Horizon arrived late and with broken windows. Hull design makes all the difference. I'm sure the speed also plays a roll.

Thanks for reminding me of our own crossing of the Tasman Sea on Silver Cloud. We were tossed around for two uncomfortable days at sea. We were told that experience was typical for the area.

[Saga Ruby]

The worst consistent seas I've ever encountered were on Saga Rose last August. Out of 18 days, 14 of them were bad weather with Force 7 winds and higher (Force 10 being hurricane force). We could not land at Nuuk, Greenland because the harbourmaster radioed the ship that the port was under Force 10 winds and a fully-loaded 40' container on the pier had been blown over.

 

The one thing I learned about continuing high seas is that the body tires after 2-3 days of being off-balance. We are so used to being vertical that muscles responding to new challenges get tired. I found myself seated a lot on this cruise. But I love high seas, bad weather, the challenge of it all, and Saga Rose dealt with the ongoing seas like a champ.

 

Digression - I'm enjoying the Inspector Rebus mysteries by Ian Rankin. He uses a Scots phrase about social drinking - "getting mortal." I learned years ago about why everything good in the UK is "Brilliant!" but what does that drinking phrase refer to?

 

Ruby

[MMDown Under]

Thanks for all your comments.

 

Whilst I didn't think the ship's design made it unseaworthy, I thought it might have effected the way it sailed through the water in rougher seas.

 

Has brought back memories of my roughest seas :

• 
  
• New York to Rotterdam (ropes to get around, furniture flying, etc.),
  
• Southhampton to Libson (infamous Bay of Biscay, where even I got seasick),
  
• Great Australian Bight (where almost everyone was seasick, except me).

Funnily enough, we haven't experienced really rough seas in the Tasman Sea or Bass Strait.

[CGTNORMANDIE]

I agree with Druke. Modern cruise ships are not all alike...by any means. I remember leaving Miami on the NORWAY ex SS FRANCE and seeing the RCCL SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS going out before us. There was a big storm off Miami and the SOS had to return to Miami...it was just too rough for them. The NORWAY simply sailed through it smartly. Some of the mega liners are ill suited for rough seas...due to hull design. The new QUEEN MARY II is built for Atlantic crossings...whereas the Princess Grand Class ships do not seem suited for transatlantic crossings. Some ships sail nicely in choppy waters...up to a point...and then fall apart in rough seas...the ex Celebrity HORIZON was one of them. She could take a head on sea...but would wallow in a following sea.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I don't mean to suggest that all ships behave the same way in bad weather, but a statement that any large cruise ship "is not designed for bad weather" is, quite frankly, false.

 

There is a lot of nonsense going on especially among ocean liner enthusiasts about how modern ships are terrible in bad weather and so on. This is, quite frankly, a load of tripe. The received wisdom among ship nuts is in this case completely false.

 

Of course, many times cruise ships will slow down in bad weather for the comfort of the passengers, or even for safety reasons, but by no means were old ships immune to this. However, in the old days operators may have been more hesitant to slow down or go around bad weather, i.e. they calculated that their passengers would rather encounter a bad storm than be late. That's less likely to be the case of today's cruise passengers.

 

I don't care what ship you're on; if you're in truly bad weather it will not be a comfortable thing. That goes for old ships as well as new. And at any rate, comfort is quite subjective and has little correlation to what is safe.

 

However, while there are a lot of people out there who like to give the impression that modern ships (except maybe QM2) are incapable of transporting their passengers safely through bad weather, there simply isn't any truth in it. (And it is also important to not confuse stability, comfort and safety, which are all entirely different things.)

 

I'm sorry if I'm a bit blunt here, I'm just tired of people (no, not on this thread) giving completely false impressions about the capabilities of modern ships that are based purely on nostalgia and not at all on fact.

 

We may like old ships, but there is no doubt that new ones are vastly superior in every technical aspect.

[Druke I]

Check out the thread "Pixs of small ships" or somesuch title. It is on this page, and there are some shots of Saga Ruby (the ship).

 

I'd give the link, but I have not been successful doing that!

[Saga Ruby]

Thanks, Michael. Isn't Saga Ruby beautiful? I occasionally look at that thread and enjoy the poster's pix. If memory serves, you and Virginia will soon be leaving for your crossing on Regatta - a fond Bon Voyage to you both.

 

If memory still serves, Donald is home from his eastern Caribbean cruise. Donald, how was your cruise but, more particularly, how were your flights?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

If memory still serves, Donald is home from his eastern Caribbean cruise. Donald, how was your cruise but, more particularly, how were your flights?

 

Ruby

 

Hi, to all! I finally arrived back home last night, a day late, thanks to the thundershowers in Dallas. I am still recovering from it. The flights to San Juan passed nicely, and the one from San Juan to Dallas was without incident. Here is the report which I sent to my travel agent:

 

There was a problem with the homeward flights. I made it to Dallas, but Flight 887 to Vancouver was cancelled, and I was assigned Economy Class on Flight 1379, scheduled for a 10:40am departure on the next day (March 18). American Airlines put me overnight in a Holiday Inn Select. My two suitcases were not released by the airline, so I had to wear the same clothes for two days. Holiday Inn provided complimentary toothbrush and toothpaste, and shaving cream and razor.

The next day, the flight from Miami (the plane afterwards being used for the route to Vancouver) arrived late at 10:30am, and the departure was moved to 11:15am. Passengers boarded the aircraft, but then sat for an hour in the sweltering plane as thundershowers lashed the area. At 12:30pm a delay of about two hours was announced, and we were allowed to leave the aircraft to purchase food and drinks from the airport quick-food joints. We decided to stay in the airy terminal rather than re-board the aircraft.

At about 1:30pm it was announced that a few passengers had become ill from sitting in the aircraft and cancelled their travel plans. All of the luggage were emptied from the aircraft and taken to a hangar so that these passengers’ luggage could be found and removed.

A new departure time of 3:30pm was announced, and at 2:45pm we re-boarded the aircraft. However, at 3:30pm the luggage hatches were once again opened and the ground crew went inside to locate and remove one or two more suitcases. We finally took off at 4:00pm, more than five hours after the original scheduled time. After all these inconveniences, Economy Class passengers were still charged for snacks and drinks on the flight. I did not purchase any.

I was assigned seat 31E, but I switched places with a woman in 30F who wanted to sit beside her husband in 31F. Afterwards, a 250- or 275-pound man sat in 30E beside me. I had to twist my torso sideways against the fuselage because of his girth, and after three hours I had a pain in my left side from this contortion. The woman in 29F reclined her seat, adding to my confinement. It was a most uncomfortable and unpleasant experience, especially because I had paid to fly in the comfort of Business Class. There were four children among those sitting in the large seats of Business Class.

Please make arrangements for American Airlines to immediately refund me the difference between fares for Business Class and Economy Class on Flight 1379, DFW to YVR.

 

The cruise was great! More on that later, after I'm more or less back to normal.

 

Donald.

[Alan2504]

Digression - I'm enjoying the Inspector Rebus mysteries by Ian Rankin. He uses a Scots phrase about social drinking - "getting mortal." I learned years ago about why everything good in the UK is "Brilliant!" but what does that drinking phrase refer to?

 

Ruby

 

Mortal (pronounced - mortul)

Quite profoundly drunk, any traits worthy of a higher being having long departed.

 

I hope that helps your enjoyment of Rebus! :)

[Saga Ruby]

Mortal (pronounced - mortul)

Quite profoundly drunk, any traits worthy of a higher being having long departed. I hope that helps your enjoyment of Rebus! :)

 

Oh thanks! That is helpful. I didn't want to expound on my thought that Scots are immortal and that a wee bit of the grape might change that status, but now I can stand down. I am quite happily working my way through the Rankin/Rebus list. Am sort of "backing in" to the original books but each and every one is a winner. My new toy is "Nemo no me impune lacessit" which is in "Mortal Causes."

 

From the HAL board: "Most passengers (not necessarily those who frequent this board) choose a cruise and/ or flights based upon price. And then many complain that the experience has changed. Given the cost of an outside cabin is now about 80% less than it was 30 years ago, change is inevitable."

 

I agree that cruise line cabins have greatly cheapened, but didn't know that "80% less" statistic. I'm lazy about numbers but know that Donald is good with them. Do we agree with that backward projection of costs per cabin?

 

Donald - Welcome home. I feel your pain about the DFW Airport mess. We got 7" of rain that day and it took two days to unwind the mess. Get some rest then tell me if the "80% less" figure is correct.

 

Ruby

[Alan2504]

Oh thanks! That is helpful. I didn't want to expound on my thought that Scots are immortal and that a wee bit of the grape might change that status, but now I can stand down. I am quite happily working my way through the Rankin/Rebus list. Am sort of "backing in" to the original books but each and every one is a winner. My new toy is "Nemo no me impune lacessit" which is in "Mortal Causes."

 

Ruby

 

Ahha! the motto of The Order of the Thistle

 

"No one provokes me with impunity"

 

..... also found on the edge of our £1 coins too!

 

Probably in Rebus parlance the equivalent of "don't mess with me" :)

[Saga Ruby]

Ahha! the motto of The Order of the Thistle No one provokes me with impunity" ..... also found on the edge of our £1 coins too! Probably in Rebus parlance the equivalent of "don't mess with me" :)

 

Yes, exactly! Some years ago, I watched the BBC serial of "Bleak House" by Dickens. One of the major characters used the name of "Nemo." When his lost love read his note, she murmurred the name and said, "No one." They really knew their Latin back in the day.

 

A well-educated friend of mine has been kind enough to pass along the name of "Nemo" as used in Homer's "Odyssey." It is a wonderful part of a wonderful saga (pardon the pun). Evidently Dickens read Homer and Rankin read Dickens. What a proud motto for the Scots in The Order of the Thistle.

 

How we wound up with a Disney film about a fish named "Nemo" is beyond my ken.

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

I agree that cruise line cabins have greatly cheapened, but didn't know that "80% less" statistic. I'm lazy about numbers but know that Donald is good with them. Do we agree with that backward projection of costs per cabin?

 

In 1972 I paid $715 for an inside cabin on the 13-day cruise aboard Victoria. That averaged $55 per day. The last time that I had an inside cabin was in 2006 aboard the Zuiderdam for a 7-day cruise to Alaska, for $2,051 or an average of $293 per day. I have absolutely no idea how to compare these two averages 34 years apart, but there must be a website where the cost of living is indicated.

 

Donald.

[Kapricorn]

Six days ago, when I was in Curacao, the Saga Ruby was docked near my ship. What a really beautiful vessel! I snapped this photograph of her.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

Six days ago, when I was in Curacao, the Saga Ruby was docked near my ship. What a really beautiful vessel! I snapped this photograph of her. Donald.

 

I just love looking at photos of Ruby and Rose in various ports. Thanks for sending that photo from Curacao. You could park these ships in a wading pool and they would stand tall and proud.

 

About Ye Olde Dayz for cabin prices. Early on, as I pondered if I could afford a cruise, I would run the per diem rate and it was always around $300-$500 for an inside cabin which priced out to around $8,000 for 16 days.

 

Nowadays, I'm paying about the same or less. I made a crossing on Celebrity's Constellation in 2003 from B'lona to your recent port, San Juan. The sole reason for taking that cruise was the per diem rate of $233 - I was so incredulous that I booked it. The industry was in the mud after 2001 so I jumped at the chance to spread a little money around. It makes my head hurt to try to factor in cost-of-living differences. But I'll bet that 1981's $300 per day is much more than today's rates.

 

If you hurry, you can get back to DFW Airport for Easter Sunday - it's due to be pouring rain that day. Shall I call Holiday Inn Select?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

If you hurry, you can get back to DFW Airport for Easter Sunday - it's due to be pouring rain that day. Shall I call Holiday Inn Select?

 

LOL!!!

 

As for Holiday Inn Select, as soon as I entered the room I thought that it was a smoking room. That was how bad it smelled. There was a sign on the desk which said it is a non-smoking room. So, it must have been the mustiness. It was quite overpowering. I wouldn't recommend that place to anyone. The staff was nice, though.

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

I'm posting this message to force Donald's reply onto a new page. Wish me luck.

 

I'm having whimwhams that the problems on CCritic are flaring up again. Uh oh.

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

In Grenada, P&O's Oceana was moored on the other side of the pier. As we departed, the passengers on the Oceana waved British flags and sang songs for the entire time that we inched away from the pier. They seemed to be having so much fun that I wondered if I was on the wrong ship! Here are a couple of photographs which I took of the happy throng. You can see a guy dangling a large British flag over the railing.

 

On the Galaxy, there also was an unusual amount of passengers from the British Isles. I suppose that their Pound was at such a favourable rate that enabled them to go in droves over to the Caribbean.

 

Donald.

[Conte Di Savoia]

Donald

Sorry to hear about your travails getting home. It sure can take the fun out of the vacation experience and make you feel as though you've never been away.

How was Galaxy? I've taken two cruises aboard her and always found her to be a delightful ship. I recently read that she is due for a major overhaul and redo. Did she look warn and tired? Are you still manic over Celebrity?

Thanks for the pictures of Oceana and Saga Ruby. It seems that the whole UK has checked out and headed for $-dependent ports and why not?

Ruby

It seems that our beloved Saga Rose has been plagued by electrical problems on her current world cruise causing her to miss some ports, including Hong Kong. However the line has been good about flying passengers to Hong Kong so that they don't miss out on the experience. That has to be quite a costly tab for them to pick up. From what I have read, they have been extremely good to their passengers under the circumstances. She's scheduled for one last world cruise in 2009 but she clearly has a deteriorating physical plant. The end is nearing, I'm afraid.

[dougnewmanatsea]

With regard to SAGA ROSE's electrical issues... These were caused by two completely unrelated leaks, one in the port and one in the starboard exhaust gas boiler. According to Stephen Card, who is now on board, the problems involved "the kind of leak that even a brand new vessel could suffer", so hopefully this is not an indication of the ship's condition.

 

The problems have been resolved and I understand everything is now going very well.