How Many Return and Cruise Again?

[sail7seas]

I've been thinking about the dining experiments which have been on-going on Oosterdam and Noordam.

 

If these searches for alternative systems for feeding us all dinner are triggered by requests by new cruisers in general (not just new to HAL) and are seeking to satisfy their requests for flexibility in scheduling/dining times, I wonder if anyone has analyzed if it has made any positive difference in HAL's numbers??

 

If they are making changes that are not pleasing so many of us traditionalists, I'm hoping they are at the very least reaping a big benefit. If they juggle with the system that has worked for so long (okay.....the four seatings vs. two is relatively new but not that drastic a change), are enough of the new cruisers so happy about being able to come to the dining room when they want that they are booking tons of future cruises?

 

Or, are they jumping from cruise line to cruise and it didn't matter a whit to them that HAL made drastic changes to attract and (presumably) keep them.

 

Maybe they decided after just one cruise they don't wish to cruise again and we traditionalist get to inherit changes made on their behalf that they will never partake of again

 

What do you think about this?

[kryos]

You make an excellent point, Sail. I have a feeling that a lot of the "new age" cruisers who love the more progressive dining formats are ones who won't develop any particular loyalty to any one line. It could very well be that they do a HAL cruise, rave about their "As You Wish" Dining experience, and then don't sail for another two years, at which time they book the line that gives them the best price at the time. Others take one cruise and then say "that's enough" and go back to land vacations. Then we, the HAL loyalists, are stuck with the changes these new cruisers have dumped on us.

 

However, on the flip side of the coin ... when those people leave HAL, lots of others take their place. Many people take just one or two cruises over a lifetime ... but that number of new cruisers can be in the millions. Even if they never sail a second time, the cruise industry makes a bundle on these new cruisers. So, I guess HAL figures that even if most of those people who raved about alternative dining formats never sail a HAL ship again, there will be plenty of others ... in the same general age range ... who will and these cruisers will love it too.

 

Bottom line ... as long as there are more people onboard ship who prefer an alternative dining concept, such as "As You Wish," HAL will offer it. Those people don't have to sail HAL again and again. As long as others like them come onboard, HAL will still reap benefits. After all, you can impute that if a certain type of passenger loves something, others fitting his same basic demographic profile will love it too. We traditionalists may soon (if we are not already) be in the minority and thus our wishes won't mean that much to HAL. Oh, they'll offer a choice between traditional dining and "As You Wish" ... at least for now ... but as the future bears in upon us ... and the traditionalists become smaller and smaller in number ... coupled with the ships getting bigger and bigger to support more "freestyle" type dining formats, HAL will go 100% flexible dining.

 

Of course, hopefully by the time this happens, you and I both won't be sailing any longer. I know that once the smaller ships are all mothballed, and the only choices available out there become 5000-passenger megaships, I'll be doing other things on my vacations. Sadly, I won't be spending them on the sea when that time comes. I can be in big crowds right here at home ... and it doesn't cost me a dime.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Sale Away]

I would guess the response cards have the typical "have you cruised with HAL before" and "how many cruises have you ever taken" type questions on there so the people reviewing the results can better categorize the answers.

 

I'm personally with the traditionalists as I prefer a set time for dinner. If I'm that rushed on a particular day, I'd rather order in to eat in the cabin on my verandah anyways. :D

[SWeaster]

Carnival Corporation owns a dozen cruise lines and somewhere around eighty ships. The company should be able to provide each with a distinct personality that appeals to different segments of the cruising public. At present they have lines with reputations for extreme partying, more refined lines and some that fall between those extremes.

 

I'm an engineer so I rarely leave much to chance. We booked our first cruise on HAL only after extensive research. HAL's passenger demographics, refined style and excellent service appealed to us. With just two cruises under our belts, one cancelled due to a medical emergency and another pending we are far from being long time cruisers. Although we have yet to be disappointed, we don't have nearly as much attachment to Holland America as some other people do. If HAL morphs into something that no longer appeals to us we can always jump ship to another Carnival company or a competitor.

[HeatherInFlorida]

I agree with SWeaster ... 100% if not more:) . And this is why all this tweaking makes no sense to me. They really end up competing with themselves. Why not let each line offer its own feel and not mess with it? There will always be peope out there looking for traditional, not just those of us who have cruised that way before.

 

But getting back to Sail's point, if I understand it correctly, we have been told by a CC member we've all come to know that it's all about the bottom line and not about individual cruisers no matter how many days they have on HAL. We're told HAL doesn't care about loyalty and the real money comes from ADDING passengers from the vast majority of people who have NEVER cruised.

 

Those are the people they're trying to attract ... masses and masses of people. According to this poster who we know to be in a position to know, whether or not you or I return to sail HAL is really not the issue. It's all about the numbers.

 

So if they can get more people to cruise, particularly those who never have, then they have been successful with their tweaking. All they want to do is fill their ships.

 

And even though I fought this poster tooth and nail, I'm now inclined to believe that he is correct. None of this is fun to hear and none of us wants to feel like just another number, but the fact is that's what cruising has become.

 

I still believe that it is without a doubt the absolute best experience out there for what we pay. Neither HAL nor anyone else owes me more than that. As long as there are choices to give me want I want, I'll be happy.

[sail7seas]

Bottom line ... as long as there are more people onboard ship who prefer an alternative dining concept, such as "As You Wish," HAL will offer it.

 

I don't have any way of knowing if there are more who prefer "As You Wish". Do you have some inside info that says that is so? I seem to feel there are more traditionalists because they are making noises about making the lower level traditional dining seeing as it offers more seating than the upper level.

[sail7seas]

Bottom line ... as long as there are more people onboard ship who prefer an alternative dining concept, such as "As You Wish," HAL will offer it.

 

I don't have any way of knowing if there are more who prefer "As You Wish". Do you have some inside info that says that is so? I seem to feel there are more traditionalists because they are making noises about making the lower level traditional dining seeing as it offers more seating than the upper level.

[ekerr19]

I don't have any way of knowing if there are more who prefer "As You Wish". Do you have some inside info that says that is so? I seem to feel there are more traditionalists because they are making noises about making the lower level traditional dining seeing as it offers more seating than the upper level.

 

Sail -

 

I agree. There may be some who like the idea, but the majority "preferring" it... I just don't see it...

 

Most of HAL's demographic seem to prefer to cruise HAL for tradition and continuity - they are not necessarily looking for "new & innovative"...

 

My parents always preferred HAL because they knew what they were going to get and LIKED it - the traditional product was always very important to my Dad.

 

...just my thoughts. :)

[hammybee]

CCL operates on the economies of scale. They keep building and growing the business and have a tremendous need to fill cabins.

 

30,000 pax are telling CCL that they prefer to dine when and with whom they want. There is no denying that NCL is a huge player in this business and regadless of how any of us feel they keep gaining market share.

 

I really do believe that most pax new to cruising do not care for the assigned time, table and tablemate thing. That we do not hear from more of them says more about this board than it does about the Comment Cards.

 

The alternative to this would be to operate HAL as Saga does its two old and beloved ships, Ruby and Rose. Their size and longer intineraries enable them to operate very traditional cruises perhaps more so than is reasonably feasible for HAL and their growing inventory of ships. It's the quest for new business that enables HAL to launch the Noordam and more. Otherwise we all might meet eachother on the old Noordam and bond over our common plumbing issues during our evening meal.

[tssace]

"Most of HAL's demographic seem to prefer to cruise HAL for tradition and continuity - they are not necessarily looking for "new & innovative"... "

 

We cruise with HAL because we've enjoyed traditional higher quality cruising with them in the past. We are at the younger end of the spectrum for HAL's passengers - free-style cruising does not cut it for us unless we are on a barefoot-sailing-ship type of cruise. I guess if HAL continues with this "as you wish" dining and it affects our experience with tradition dining we'll be searching for another cruiseline. After all, we can spend our $$ 'as we wish'!!!

[lougee1043]

traditional dining is still available -=-- it was on our recent odam cruise while alternate dining was being tested----i am a traditional dining person and as long a traditional dining is available in one of the dining rooms i really dont care what is being tested or implemented or adjusted in the other one

[HeatherInFlorida]

Where does this information come from that new cruisers don't want traditional dining? Is this information from some specific reliable source? Because I think there are a heck of a lot of new cruisers right here on this board who aren't thrilled with this new concept.

 

They continue to return from this "experiment" with horror tales. As I said on another thread, obviously those behind this thinking are going to insist it's supported, but that doesn't mean that it is.

 

Anyone who thinks that this is truly "as you wish" dining is seriously misguided. I've been reading about this on here for awhile now and from what everyone says it doesn't end up being AS YOU WISH at all! You must make a reservation and even if you do, you'd better make it early or book a pretty ritzy cabin because otherwise you will not get what you want and you'll very likely be standing in line.

 

That's the basis of people's complaints. I'm sure there are many people who would be thrilled if it was seriously a "walk in any time and eat" plan. But it's just not!!! That's the point. It's not "as you wish" at all so I have no idea why they're calling it that.

[cruznon]

I think many of us who prefer traditional dining have taken the continuation of HAL traditional dining as a "given" and therefore we haven't commented on our surveys how much we value and enjoy tradtional dining.

The newbies to cruising (or who haven't experienced HAL or are not traditionalists) probably do note that the set dining times are inconvenient to their lifestyle and that opening dining would be preferable. (Maybe NCL commericials or friends have had an influence or created expectations.)

I believe we are learning that we must make sure to include in our comments how much we appreciate traditional dining and that this is a factor (traditional dining) does influence our cruising choices.

IMHO, if HAL continues to try to be "all things to all people" they loose the special qualities of the cruise line. Cruise lines should not be homogenized--there need to be differences to fit the different wants and needs of cruisers. Hopefully, HAL remains more of a traditional line with elegance, gracious hospitality, beautiful art, mountains of glorious fresh flowers, formal nights, etc.

I really like the fact that HAL's ships are not party ships or like one of the ships that has 800+ kids on board in a single sailing (I was actually on such a ship.) THat's why we come back. I think it would be foolish of any business to ignore repeat customers.

[jhannah]

... as long a traditional dining is available in one of the dining rooms ...

Exactly. But this is the rub. Not everyone who wants traditional can get it. That's been proven on Princess and other lines. So unless the stars line up just right for you, you could be relegated to the "anytime" venue ... and if you're wanting to dine at a popular time you will likely end up with a pager!

[hunzabunz]

The anytime dining only seems to work if you get a table that will only have your party. Just off the Oosterdam in December and had this dining venue. I made sure that it was only me, my DH and Sister at a table for 4. The 2 tables on either side of us were for 10 each. At one time one of the tables only 1/2 showed at the start of dinner and the second group at the table showed up during the 1st groups soup and salad. Needless to say, our servers were so flustered trying to keep up with them that things got slow with just us 3.

 

I guess that's the biggest complaint. The servers are just non stop rushing that they can't visit with you anymore. That's the thing that we like best about Holland, the servers chatting it up with you.

 

Nan

[Tricia724]

I guess good old Abe Lincoln knew what he was talking about when he said you can "please all of the people some of the time....and some of the people all of the time....but you can't please all of the people all of the time." And Abe wasn't even a cruiser.

 

I agree with cruznon that those of us traditionalists should state on the comment card that we like the fixed seating dining, and I'm going to do that when I'm on Maasdam in a few weeks. By not stating our preferences, we are perhaps allowing the people screaming for flexible dining to get priority. It's like not voting on election day.

[hammybee]

I think many of us who prefer traditional dining have taken the continuation of HAL traditional dining as a "given" and therefore we haven't commented on our surveys how much we value and enjoy tradtional dining.

The newbies to cruising (or who haven't experienced HAL or are not traditionalists) probably do note that the set dining times are inconvenient to their lifestyle and that opening dining would be preferable. (Maybe NCL commericials or friends have had an influence or created expectations.)

I believe we are learning that we must make sure to include in our comments how much we appreciate traditional dining and that this is a factor (traditional dining) does influence our cruising choices.

 

I have said before, that I often feel like I have sailed the other HAL, a very different cruise experience than many on this board have with HAL. I am thinking this may be due to the fact that with one exception, my experiences on HAL have been during prime time spring break and summer vacation times, 7-12 day sails, when the demographics are quite different.

 

What I have heard loud and clear, for years, is that many people prefer flexibility of dining times, dependent upon the current and next days' shore excursions and their whims of the moment. Early seating is often too early and late is too late and most people would prefer something in between which is what creates problems, when they do occur, on other cruise lines. It's no different than a land based vacation where the restaurants are jammed at 7, so you better eat early or late or be prepared to wait.

 

The majority of these cruisers are under 50. They spend money, a lot of money because cruising is still a novelty. As the cruise progresses, they tire of the routine of traditional dining and often end up in the LIDO, leaving empty tables and abandoned tablemates. Their behaviors send a clear message to HAL. And I have no doubt that they make their preferences known on the comment cards.

[hammybee]

I guess good old Abe Lincoln knew what he was talking about when he said you can "please all of the people some of the time....and some of the people all of the time....but you can't please all of the people all of the time." And Abe wasn't even a cruiser.

 

I agree with cruznon that those of us traditionalists should state on the comment card that we like the fixed seating dining, and I'm going to do that when I'm on Maasdam in a few weeks. By not stating our preferences, we are perhaps allowing the people screaming for flexible dining to get priority. It's like not voting on election day.

 

I agree with both of you. Use your comment card to tell HAL what you like about HAL, instead of dwelling on what you did not like or enjoy. Do you want, for example, traditional dining and formal evenings to continue forever and ever? If so, forget about telling HAL you found the pop corn too salty. In other words, choose your battles and decide what is really important to you.

[hammybee]

[quote name=HeatherInFlorida;9007584

 

They continue to return from this "experiment" with horror tales. As I said on another thread' date=' obviously those behind this thinking are going to insist it's supported, but that doesn't mean that it is.

 

That's the basis of people's complaints. I'm sure there are many people who would be thrilled if it was seriously a "walk in any time and eat" plan. But it's just not!!! That's the point. It's not "as you wish" at all so I have no idea why they're calling it that.[/font][/color][/size]

 

This is interesting Heather. From the very few that have returned from the dining experiement, having actually experienced it, I think it's running close to 50-50.

 

Those that strongly prefer traditional dining often focus on the negative posts. Those who strongly prefer more flexible timing, read it the other way and the very few, like me, who don't care one way or another, perceive there to be more balance between the two.

[caviargal]

All they want to do is fill their ships.

 

And even though I fought this poster tooth and nail, I'm now inclined to believe that he is correct. None of this is fun to hear and none of us wants to feel like just another number, but the fact is that's what cruising has become.

 

I still believe that it is without a doubt the absolute best experience out there for what we pay. Neither HAL nor anyone else owes me more than that. As long as there are choices to give me want I want, I'll be happy.

 

Filling ships is the bottom line and one could replace "HAL" with "Celebrity" and a few other lines and the same concepts apply.

 

Cruise line are changing and the differences between them are lessening. More dining options/times, relaxed dress codes, ala carte options from coffee to ice cream, cut backs in many aspects of the experience are all signs of the times.

 

I no longer find that cruising is a great value for me, nor is it the best overall experience for my taste. I personally do not care for the ever larger vessels being built which will attract a different type of cruiser. I don't like how casual and family oriented most lines have become.

 

Since those things are not going to change, I have no plans to cruise for pleasure in the foreseable future, unless I opt for a luxury line every few years when funds permit. Land based trips to the Caribbean and annual visits to Europe have far more appeal these days.

 

I took my first cruise in 1968 and feel instantly in love! What cruising is evolving into is everything I dislike about a vacation.

[Sage]

Caviargal, DH and I happen to agree with you. When you try to become "something for everyone", you become something else. We do not appreciate the "something else" HAL has become, and have moved on to a cruise line that is more traditional.

[gizmo]

Anyone who thinks that this is truly "as you wish" dining is seriously misguided. I've been reading about this on here for awhile now and from what everyone says it doesn't end up being AS YOU WISH at all! You must make a reservation and even if you do, you'd better make it early or book a pretty ritzy cabin because otherwise you will not get what you want and you'll very likely be standing in line.

 

That's the basis of people's complaints. I'm sure there are many people who would be thrilled if it was seriously a "walk in any time and eat" plan. But it's just not!!! That's the point. It's not "as you wish" at all so I have no idea why they're calling it that.

 

Agree 100% I have said the same thing many times. :)

 

The term "As You Wish" is nothing but a marketing tool to make people think they can eat anytime they want. Same goes for "Personal Choice" or whatever it is Princess is calling.

 

All this sounds good in the brochures, but it just isn't true.

[kryos]

Sail -

 

I agree. There may be some who like the idea, but the majority "preferring" it... I just don't see it...

Betcha the majority of those newer cruisers the cruise lines are trying to attract prefer it.

 

As long as HAL offers a choice, I can live with it. If I can't get traditional dining on a cruise, then I won't take that cruise ... at least not if I'm planning to travel solo on the boat. I will just tell me TA ... either I get confirmed for traditional dining or cancel my booking.

 

But come the day that HAL no longer offers a choice ... and I don't see that happening anytime soon ... then I too will jump ship. True, I am loyal to HAL ... simply because I've had most of my best experiences sailing HAL ships ... but if I had to put up with "freestyle" dining, then I would simply look for another alternative for my cruise dollars.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[fsalzer]

The term "As You Wish" is nothing but a marketing tool to make people think they can eat anytime they want. Same goes for "Personal Choice" or whatever it is Princess is calling.

 

All this sounds good in the brochures, but it just isn't true.

 

As You Wish Dining's open dining option (HAL), Personal Choice's Anytime Dining option (Princess) and Oceania's open dining have been "as we wish". We've never had a wait except one evening on Star Princess and that wait was less than 5 minutes. We usually commence dining "whenever we wish" between 6:00pm and 7:30pm.

 

Fred

[Krazy Kruizers]

I have thought the same thing. I keep hearing reports that passengers like this new thing and that new thing. We talked to a couple of people who were first time cruises and they just raved about all the new changes that HAL was making. But when I asked them if they would cruise on HAL again, their answer was "no". When I asked them why, they said that HAL's itineraries for longer cruises (10 days) were doing islands likeSt Kitts, Trinadad, Nevius which the other cruise lines are doing.

 

JMO - these people will write glowing reports about the dining times and etc., but move on to other lines and we traditionalists will be stuck with whatever these one-time-HAL cruises give top numbers on.