Reduced Staffing - a myth?

I'm sorry, but you suspect wrong. Non US citizen crew working on a non-US flagged vessel are not covered by workmans comp.

 

The fact that the med staff would attend to a crewman's injury I should think would go without saying. That's one of the reasons they're there. But that has nothing to do with US workmans comp law.

 

In the case of a serious injury, the crew person does have recourse to US courts under current law. But that is a whole 'nother ballgame.

Well makes sense, I guess, and probably a part of the reason there are so few US citizens as employees on ships, although I have seen more in the last few years but mostly in entertainment and front desk/operations positions. Have yet to see a housekeeping/maintenance/dining room/bartender from the US....and of course they may well be there but if so there aren't many.

Am I wrong, isn't the link just a company trying to get some lawsuits going and couldn't they be putting this information in there to try to lure clients in.

....it is a site about maritime lawyers but not a specific law firm...but, yes, in the end there is no doubt there is an attorney(s) behind it looking for business.....

....it is a site about maritime lawyers but not a specific law firm...but, yes, in the end there is no doubt there is an attorney(s) behind it looking for business.....

Well makes sense, I guess, and probably a part of the reason there are so few US citizens as employees on ships, although I have seen more in the last few years but mostly in entertainment and front desk/operations positions. Have yet to see a housekeeping/maintenance/dining room/bartender from the US....and of course they may well be there but if so there aren't many.

I wold be extremely surprised if ever any US citizen were working in service positions on a cruise ship. They can make more working at Micky D's. In fact, I doubt the lines would recruit a US cit for those jobs, since it might bring with it other issues, but I don't have specific knowledge.

Entertainers, lecturers, and the like are not employees. They are provided to the ship under a contract with agencies who specialize in such things. They are paid by the agencies.

You will find the occasional American in the upper-level executive or navigation ranks on a ship; for those jobs, the US vs. foreign market pay is much more comparable. For some slots, it's appropriate to have a native English speaker, someone who grew up in the culture of the pax, i.e. another American or close analogue (Brit? Canadian? Aussie?), or at least someone who spent years in one of those places and is comfortable in the culture. Still, it's not the usual situation.

I wold be extremely surprised if ever any US citizen were working in service positions on a cruise ship. They can make more working at Micky D's. In fact, I doubt the lines would recruit a US cit for those jobs, since it might bring with it other issues, but I don't have specific knowledge.

 

Entertainers, lecturers, and the like are not employees. They are provided to the ship under a contract with agencies who specialize in such things. They are paid by the agencies.

 

I suppose you might find the occasional American in the upper-level executive or navigation ranks on a ship; for those jobs, the US vs. foreign market pay is much more comparable. Still, it would be the odd situation.

I wold be extremely surprised if ever any US citizen were working in service positions on a cruise ship. They can make more working at Micky D's. In fact, I doubt the lines would recruit a US cit for those jobs, since it might bring with it other issues, but I don't have specific knowledge.

 

Entertainers, lecturers, and the like are not employees. They are provided to the ship under a contract with agencies who specialize in such things. They are paid by the agencies.

 

I suppose you might find the occasional American in the upper-level executive or navigation ranks on a ship; for those jobs, the US vs. foreign market pay is much more comparable. Still, it would be the odd situation.

After I sent the last post I did remember 2 US Citizens in the F & B areas of X ships, one was originally a maitre'd in Blu on Solstice and then manager of both Silhouette & Reflection Lawn Grill areas, may still be on Reflection, not sure. The other an ass't maitre'd in Blu on Equinox, so I guess there are a few, but these were not servers/waiters/asst waiters which I agree would be hard to find.

Having said that and since I worked myself up in the hotel business, starting as a "bus girl" a long time ago and now GM of an Oceanside resort, I would have LOVED to have begun my career working on ships and seeing the world.....alas the ships around back then were far fewer and smaller.

Having said that and since I worked myself up in the hotel business, starting as a "bus girl" a long time ago and now GM of an Oceanside resort, I would have LOVED to have begun my career working on ships and seeing the world.....alas the ships around back then were far fewer and smaller.

I'm with you, I would have loved to work on a cruise ship when I was younger. When I first started my career (I was a clerk typist), Princess Cruises was one of our customers and every time they called in an order, I would ask them if they had a Cruise Director's job available....too much of watching the Love Boat, I wanted to be Julie McCoy LOL!

HA! Good old Julie, Captain Stubing and the crew.....yup that would have been fun!!:):)

Well makes sense, I guess, and probably a part of the reason there are so few US citizens as employees on ships, although I have seen more in the last few years but mostly in entertainment and front desk/operations positions. Have yet to see a housekeeping/maintenance/dining room/bartender from the US....and of course they may well be there but if so there aren't many.

We may be taking this conversation too far off the original track, but just a clarification. The obligation or non-obligation of providing workers compensation insurance is not whether an employee is or is not a US citizen per se. The rules have more to do with much more complicated legal requirements related to where the company is located, owned, operating, etc., etc.. I am not claiming to be an expert on work comp for cruise employees, but I know that much is true.

And related, to comment on another post, just because ships provide medical care onboard does not necessarily mean they provide medical care at all once the person leaves the ship, even if the injury/illness occurred while sailing. Perhaps they are, I don't know. But I don't think we can assume so.

I can tell you this. Ship crew travel is a big revenue area for international airlines in general, and most of such travel, at least in the old days, was not for cruise ships but for cargo vessels (today there are relatively fewer cargo vessels/crew members and more cruise vessels, so I don't know what the current situation is). In the old days those guys had union agreements that got them first class seats -- I'm sure there were discounts, but not to the extent of interline discounts.

 

You're correct that crew needs to be in place when needed so less reliance can be placed on last minute bookings, all the more so due to the much higher load factors in today's aviation.

 

Without going into a long discussion of rate making theory (I was a transportation economist once upon a time), I wouldn't worry that "you are paying for their travel." Airlines are good at maximizing revenue, and if they are "giving seats away" they are getting it back somewhere along the way, and not from your pocket.

Today's load factors are extremely higher. I rarely travel on a flight that is anything but 100% full and I don't think I am alone. So I guess I just don't see how they could provide seats at numbers quoted by the post I was referencing and it not somehow impact the prices the rest of us are paying? I understand the concept of a symbiotic relationship, but I don't get it for this situation. Providing discount cruises to airline employees doesn't provide any value to the airlines that I can determine, with the possible small exception of a perk to enhance good employees (pretty unneeded these days of high unemployment). I understand the point of volume discounts - all large companies can negotiate those - but 20-25% of a standard fare? I doubt it. I am not an economist so there could certainly be something I am missing here, but I am a very logical thinker and this doesn't compute with me.

We may be taking this conversation too far off the original track, but just a clarification. The obligation or non-obligation of providing workers compensation insurance is not whether an employee is or is not a US citizen per se. The rules have more to do with much more complicated legal requirements related to where the company is located, owned, operating, etc., etc.. I am not claiming to be an expert on work comp for cruise employees, but I know that much is true.

 

And related, to comment on another post, just because ships provide medical care onboard does not necessarily mean they provide medical care at all once the person leaves the ship, even if the injury/illness occurred while sailing. Perhaps they are, I don't know. But I don't think we can assume so.

Well, as you say we're getting a little far afield here, but one last post to clarify further. This is my understanding. It all relates to the registration (flag) of the ship. Substantially any US flag ship, cruise or otherwise, must be 100% crewed by US citizens or resident aliens (with a green card). On such a ship, the employer is subject to US labor laws and must provide workmans comp same as any US employer. On a non-US flag ship, which will certainly be crewed by non-US citizens, there is no US jurisdiction related to labor matters, US labor laws do not apply, and as such there is not and cannot be an obligation that the owner carry US workmans comp -- this is true no matter that the beneficial owner is a US company with principal offices in the US. It's the nationality of the ship itself (registration/flag) that matters. Further, I don't believe that such an owner needs to supply workmans comp even to the odd american who might be employed on the ship, any more than a factory in, say, France that happens to employ an American would need to do such a thing. In the main, workers of any nationality working on foreign soil (including ships flagged on that soil) are subject to the labor laws of that soil, not US laws.

That said, in order to recruit workers and keep the workforce happy, it is clearly necessary for the prospective employer to attend to such matters as what happens in the event of injury. There may be laws in the flag nation that apply. There are international standards that apply and that all nations observe. So it's not as if these workers are not protected. But the protection does not devolve from US law, but other laws and customs.

With regard to your post just above about airline fares, low fares for the other guy only have a negative effect on your fare if that cheap guy displaces someone else who would have been willing to pay a higher fare. That might have happened in days gone by, but in the modern era it would be the rare airline that would let it happen if it could be avoided. That's why airlines have devoted large resources to yield management systems -- those systems job is exactly to prevent just that scenario. Again I can't speak for every airline out there, and the state of the art is always changing, but my belief would be that these days if cruise lines want positive space for their crew they are going to have to pay the price. Airlines that plan to stay in business don't give away revenue any more.

 

Entertainers, lecturers, and the like are not employees. They are provided to the ship under a contract with agencies who specialize in such things. They are paid by the agencies.

Some mainstream cruise lines do hire directly themselves, and have entertainer staff from the US.

Also, similarly, the childcare staff of cruiselines are direct employees, and often of US origin, as well as many other nationalities.

As with other ship staff though through to the captain, they are working on contracts.

Cle-guy

Your comments are a thoughtful attempt to help understanding what is or might be going on.

Not to detract from that discussion let me make a few technical comments.

I was reading another thread and came across this quote discussing the current financials put out by RCI in their SEC Stock Filings:

... RCI has 23 ships, Celebrity 11, Azamara 2, total of 35 ships...

As far as I know all SEC filings are made by Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd (RCCL) and none by their subsidiary Royal Caribbean International (RCI). RCCL's 2013 Annual says they "operate a combined total of 41 ships". They count only 21 ships in RCI (are you counting Quantum and Anthem, who would not be included in 2013 numbers?). Is there a reason why you excluded RCCL's European based subsidiaries (Pullmantur [4 ships], CDF [2 ships] , TUI Cruises [50% joint ownership;2 ships in 2013 plus a new build in 2014])? Aren't their numbers rolled up into the RCCL figures you are quoting?

Possible you may have access to data I have not seen (I am not a stock broker nor a professional investor).

Thom

Some mainstream cruise lines do hire directly themselves, and have entertainer staff from the US.

 

Also, similarly, the childcare staff of cruiselines are direct employees, and often of US origin, as well as many other nationalities.

 

As with other ship staff though through to the captain, they are working on contracts.

If you look at my original post (#104) from which you are quoting only a fragment, you will see that in that same post I already pointed out that sometimes Americans are hired for jobs of that nature. (It was in an edit, within the 20 minute limit). The reference was exactly to staff such as entertainment directors and child care where persons familiar with the culture are appropriate and necessary.

I'll take your word for it that some lines hire entertainers directly, but I doubt it's the common case. I certainly agree that many or most of the entertainers are Americans, at least for trips out of the US, but in most cases they are provided by agencies and are not direct employees. I know I once looked into getting a gig as an enrichment lecturer (I worked for many years in maritime transport studies), and quickly discovered that the only way to do that was through an agency, never the cruise line itself. The same is true of most entertainers.

As to everybody working on contracts, sure, every employee no doubt has an employment contract of some type. But that's not the same as the contract between an entertainer and an agency, which agency then contracts with the ship to provide the entertainer. That's a horse of a completely different color.

The only US Flag "true cruise ship" is NCL's Pride Of America, which sails around the Hawaiian Islands and I thought I read that the majority, if not all, of their crew are US citizens.

As an aside and purely anecdotal hearsay, friends just returned from this cruise...staff US. Unfortunately, they were not very impessed with the ship or NCL experience overall....they did hotels and most tours with them....

A few yrs ago,while on Celeb cruise to Hawaii, we met some of the Pride staff on their day off on a local excursion...nice folks but they complained alot abt woking on this ship...

As an aside and purely anecdotal hearsay, friends just returned from this cruise...staff US. Unfortunately, they were not very impessed with the ship or NCL experience overall....they did hotels and most tours with them....

 

A few yrs ago,while on Celeb cruise to Hawaii, we met some of the Pride staff on their day off on a local excursion...nice folks but they complained alot abt woking on this ship...

I'm sure there are complaints from crew members on each and every ship that sails the oceans.

If you look at my original post (#104) from which you are quoting only a fragment, you will see that in that same post I already pointed out that sometimes Americans are hired for jobs of that nature. (It was in an edit, within the 20 minute limit). The reference was exactly to staff such as entertainment directors and child care where persons familiar with the culture are appropriate and necessary.

 

I'll take your word for it that some lines hire entertainers directly, but I doubt it's the common case. I certainly agree that many or most of the entertainers are Americans, at least for trips out of the US, but in most cases they are provided by agencies and are not direct employees. I know I once looked into getting a gig as an enrichment lecturer (I worked for many years in maritime transport studies), and quickly discovered that the only way to do that was through an agency, never the cruise line itself. The same is true of most entertainers.

 

As to everybody working on contracts, sure, every employee no doubt has an employment contract of some type. But that's not the same as the contract between an entertainer and an agency, which agency then contracts with the ship to provide the entertainer. That's a horse of a completely different color.

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Cle-guys comments are well stated and researched but I have a totally different take. I'm a simple person and just go on a cruise to enjoy myself with my wife and take in the whole cruise experience. If the experience becomes bad and it hasn't yet, my pocketbook will do the talking.

Yup..that sums it up for us. Lucky, to have had many yrs of wonderful elegant upscale and fun cruising with X, hopeful we can enjoy some more.

We have no contract only brand loyalty so if service and product declines to a more pedestrian experience, we are free to look elsewhere. Not necessary so far.

Cle-guy

 

Your comments are a thoughtful attempt to help understanding what is or might be going on.

 

Not to detract from that discussion let me make a few technical comments.

As far as I know all SEC filings are made by Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd (RCCL) and none by their subsidiary Royal Caribbean International (RCI). RCCL's 2013 Annual says they "operate a combined total of 41 ships". They count only 21 ships in RCI (are you counting Quantum and Anthem, who would not be included in 2013 numbers?). Is there a reason why you excluded RCCL's European based subsidiaries (Pullmantur [4 ships], CDF [2 ships] , TUI Cruises [50% joint ownership;2 ships in 2013 plus a new build in 2014])? Aren't their numbers rolled up into the RCCL figures you are quoting?

 

Possible you may have access to data I have not seen (I am not a stock broker nor a professional investor).

 

Thom

I pulled my ship counts just from the X, AZ and RCI websites, didn't pull from filings. Also I thought they got rid of Pulmantur and wasn't sure if TUI is fully owned (and as I se you state 50% therefore its revenues and expense wouldn't be in the figures, its earnings would be reported "net")

I counted Oasis and Allure, as those were quoted as a partial reason for the 4% overall decrease in wages expense (although it as flat, if adjusted for the capacity it meant a true decline which is how I calculated the number of positions lost compared to the wage expense that was the same)

nearly all, if not all, service employees/crew are union members and their terms of employment are covered by the Collective Bargaining Agreement. FIT, an Italian union, represents Celebrity employees.

 

 

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According to RCCL's 2013 10K report, which is incorporated into its Annual Report, approximately 80% of its shipboard employees are covered by collective bargaining agreements. Like everything else, it does not break that out by its individual brands, but the company asserts elsewhere, as a basis for presenting all its data on a consolidated basis, that all its various operations are similar; as such, it may be inferred that the percentage for Celebrity is roughly the same.

The 10K also states that RCCL, in common with all international shipping operations, passenger and cargo, must conform to the "International Labor Organization's Consolidated Maritime Labour Convention which became effective in August 2013. The Convention reflects a broad range of standards and conditions governing all aspects of crew management for ships in international commerce, including additional requirements not previously in effect relating to the health, safety, repatriation, entitlements and status of crewmembers and crew recruitment practices."

According to RCCL's 2013 10K report, which is incorporated into its Annual Report, approximately 80% of its shipboard employees are covered by collective bargaining agreements. Like everything else, it does not break that out by its individual brands, but the company asserts elsewhere, as a basis for presenting all its data on a consolidated basis, that all its various operations are similar; as such, it may be inferred that the percentage for Celebrity is roughly the same.

 

The 10K also states that RCCL, in common with all international shipping operations, passenger and cargo, must conform to the "International Labor Organization's Consolidated Maritime Labour Convention which became effective in August 2013. The Convention reflects a broad range of standards and conditions governing all aspects of crew management for ships in international commerce, including additional requirements not previously in effect relating to the health, safety, repatriation, entitlements and status of crewmembers and crew recruitment practices."

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Because the majority of vacant cabins we would assume would be in less desirable locations (lower decks for example, or "embedded" in the walls of some Passenger Decks... This I know to be true for Deck 3 on S-Ships)

 

Conversions could be possible... But it would be a lot of work reconfiguring... More so we assume if only a handful of cabins involved.

One of the hidden use of guest cabins is for overflow from crew cabins caused by contract workers, official company visitors, guest entertainers and space available use for crew families. More space in crew cabins would be first used by these variables.

Other variable factors affecting cabin use include where:

- Crew families stay in guest cabins when they come aboard as a guest.

- Management spouses of employees stay in the cabin with the employee when authorized.

- Contractors who are allowed spouse to accompany them.

- Other crew who are married to a fellow shipmate share a cabin.

Bottom line is that RCCL is probably making effective use of all spaces and it would not be seen by the majority of guests.

As an aside, I know personally that there have been significant restructuring events with management including moving folks from the Hotel side to the Marine side to include significant salary losses in the process.

That sounds about right. The 20% not covered would be management, ships officers and the entertainment staff etc.

 

 

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I'm not certain. Officers may well be unionized -- they certainly are on US merchant ships, right up to masters (the International Organization of Masters, Mates & Pilots is one of the important maritime unions). Entertainment staff are for the most part not employees, so they don't count. It would be interesting to get hard information. I'll ask around the next time I have the opportunity.

If you look at my original post (#104) from which you are quoting only a fragment, you will see that in that same post I already pointed out that sometimes Americans are hired for jobs of that nature. (It was in an edit, within the 20 minute limit). The reference was exactly to staff such as entertainment directors and child care where persons familiar with the culture are appropriate and necessary.

 

I did read your post. It did not refer to either childcare, nor entertainment workers. All you wrote about American workers was "You will find the occasional American in the upper-level executive or navigation ranks on a ship". I do not consider the childcare department, nor entertainers to fit in within either "upper level executive" nor "navigation". Your statement gave a slant that implied only the most senior officers came from America, which is not evidenced by the facts.

I also only quoted a fragment because it was the relevant statement being replied to. The rest of your post was not relevant to the point nor context - unless you wish to claim that childcare and entertainers fall under "upper level executive or navigation".

I did read your post. It did not refer to either childcare, nor entertainment workers. All you wrote about American workers was "You will find the occasional American in the upper-level executive or navigation ranks on a ship". I do not consider the childcare department, nor entertainers to fit in within either "upper level executive" nor "navigation". Your statement gave a slant that implied only the most senior officers came from America, which is not evidenced by the facts.

 

I also only quoted a fragment because it was the relevant statement being replied to. The rest of your post was not relevant to the point nor context - unless you wish to claim that childcare and entertainers fall under "upper level executive or navigation".

You continue a pattern of mis-characterizing what I have said, to the point that your misreadings seems willful, not just mistaken.

I 100% stand by what I said that post (#104). Reread it again. It in no way gives any such "slant." It specifically says that, in addition to Americans who may be found in upper level or navigation posts, there are jobs where understanding of the culture is important and you may sometimes find Americans in those posts as well. Here are the exact words: "For some slots, it's appropriate to have a native English speaker, someone who grew up in the culture of the pax, i.e. another American or close analogue (Brit? Canadian? Aussie?), or at least someone who spent years in one of those places and is comfortable in the culture."

While I didn't specifically mention childcare, childcare would certainly fall under the rubric of such a "cultural" post, since some parents of whatever nationality are obviously more comfortable leaving their kids with folks of the same nationality and the cruise line will respond to that preference. Similarly, posts covering such jobs as directing entertainment include the necessity to for example go out on stage and tell warmup jokes, something that requires deep involvement in the culture of the audience. So yes you will find Americans in such posts, and what I said earlier includes such employees.

The bottom line remains that very few shipboard employees of cruise vessels are Americans. The vast preponderance of exceptions, as I said previously, would be an occasional officer, a few executives on board, and a few in jobs where only an American or "near-American" has the cultural and linguistic underpinnings to carry out the required function. While it is true that many entertainers are also Americans, entertainers, by and large, are NOT employees and I have made it clear in several posts that they are outside of the scope of my remarks, although you continue to drag them back in.

This exchange has gone on long enough, and has become rather pointless. I think it's time to stop.