Air Canada Rouge, Is it really that bad?

I've read a number of comments about how bad Air Canada Rouge is (seatguru, various forums) and wondered if any of the Cruise Critic members have had the misfortune of flying with them?

I've looking at a possible Med cruise and can't help but notice that 90% of the flights to Europe on Air Canada are now Rouge branded. While I like Air Canada I have no desire to fly on Rouge if the comments about cramped space, inexperienced cabin crew and overall uncomfortable seats are true.

In looking at the pricing I can probably fly Air France, KLM, Lufthansa (on Lufthansa planes) or BA for about the same price with the only difference being the need to make a connection while in Europe.

Any comments from anyone who has flown Rouge (preferably a long haul flight) would be appreciated.

I haven't flown Rouge, but I've read nothing but complaints. Try using seatguru.com to compare seat pitch and width for Rouge versus your other choices.

I notice many award bookings using UA miles to Europe are now pulling up Rouge flights, and I wouldn't consider them.

Yes, it's really that bad if you're flying in coach. If you want to waste your money on Rouge Premium, it's acceptable.

I will do almost anything to avoid flying Rouge, including driving some or all the the way, or taking multiple connecting flights on other airlines. When they changed my flight to San Diego to a Rouge flight, I chose to fly to LAX and rent a car to drive to San Diego instead. That's how much I won't fly Rouge (coach). The seats are thin and uncomfortable, the legroom is a ridiculous 29", the service is minimalist (i.e. only in flight entertainment is to stream to your iPad, or a rented iPad). The staff can range from lousy to good, that's variable.

They say streaming inflight entertainment is also available on Windows laptops, but on my last flight with them (I have only done 3), Windows streaming wasn't available. I don't know if it's actually working now or if it will again in the future.

I've read a number of comments about how bad Air Canada Rouge is (seatguru, various forums) and wondered if any of the Cruise Critic members have had the misfortune of flying with them?

 

I've looking at a possible Med cruise and can't help but notice that 90% of the flights to Europe on Air Canada are now Rouge branded. While I like Air Canada I have no desire to fly on Rouge if the comments about cramped space, inexperienced cabin crew and overall uncomfortable seats are true.

 

In looking at the pricing I can probably fly Air France, KLM, Lufthansa (on Lufthansa planes) or BA for about the same price with the only difference being the need to make a connection while in Europe.

 

Any comments from anyone who has flown Rouge (preferably a long haul flight) would be appreciated.

Change planes in Europe, it's way easier than putting up with Rouge; even if they do have hats.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/rob-lowe-pokes-fun-at-air-canada-rouge-in-series-of-tweets-1.1823565

More seriously, most of the seriously bad reviews on the north american configured A319s; the 767s seem to take a tiny bit less abuse.

For about the same price as AC Rouge, you might be able to fly Air Transcat club class (their premium economy).

Where/when are you flying from/to ?

In December i did a Vancouver to Las Vegas flight in Rogue in the A319.

Went down in Premium Rogue. Basically it is the same setup as business class on a European short range Airline. The middle seat is blocked. Hot meal service is the same as Business Class on regular Air Canada. More than willing to do it again. It sounds like they plan to put the regular domestic business class seats back into these aircraft.

Came back in regular economy in Rogue. They use thinner seats and it is a bit tighter from a leg room perspective. Pitch is used to measure leg room at 29-30 inch it is cramp. I would say it is very comparable to Air Transat.

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The cabin crew was excellent. It is a younger crowd that typical on Air Canada. I was told they hired Disney training department to train staff on how to provide good customer service. It shows. They should do the same for the regular Air Canada staff.

If money was no object my preference would be:

- Air Canada International Business Class

- Air Canada Domestic Business Class which is equal to Rogue Premium

- Air Canada Premium Economy or Air Transat Club

- Air Canada Economy Plus or WestJet Premium

- Air Canada Regular Economy

- WestJet Economy

- Air Canada Rogue or Air Transat Economy

A lot of those Rogue flight to Europe are destinations that are new leisure travel destination for Air Canada. Virtually all of the tradition business destinations still have the regular Air Canada service.

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like everything I have read and heard is pretty accurate, will try to avoid Rouge unless it becomes too painful/expensive.

I'm in Ottawa and looking at cruises that end/depart in Barcelona, Rome, Venice. The only direct flights to Europe from Ottawa are regular AC flights to Frankfurt or Heathrow with the Air Canada website trying to route me via Montreal to direct flights on Rouge branded airlines. I also look at flights from Montreal (short drive) which opens up the possibilities of using the airlines I've previously mentioned.

It is interesting that I can fly regular AC flights to Europe and connect onto my final destination on Lufthansa for about the same price as Rouge via Montreal. Seems like an easy decision given the feedback. Will dig in to see if KLM, Air France offer better/cheaper alternatives.

As a budget traveller, Rouge service didn't bother me much from YVR to SFO (2 hours). I'm 5' 6" with a significant waist, but understand larger passengers would have problems.

Just make sure my iPad is charged up and their entertainment app is downloaded.

Air Canada is providing choice to customers who are demanding ever lower fares. Many were switching to discount flyers while demanding lower fares (with tighter seating, reduced luggage allowances, etc...). I could have flown Allegiant, but found AC schedules more practical.

As a budget traveller, Rouge service didn't bother me much from YVR to SFO (2 hours). I'm 5' 6" with a significant waist, but understand larger passengers would have problems.

 

Just make sure my iPad is charged up and their entertainment app is downloaded.

 

Air Canada is providing choice to customers who are demanding ever lower fares. Many were switching to discount flyers while demanding lower fares (with tighter seating, reduced luggage allowances, etc...). I could have flown Allegiant, but found AC schedules more practical.

The real issue I find is that the fares are not any lower, they are the same or more than prior years and the non-discount competition is priced the same. Seems like a cash grab to me. That and they have taken away our choice by the majority of overseas flights being replaced by Rouge with no comparable regular service.

Air Canada is providing choice to customers who are demanding ever lower fares. Many were switching to discount flyers while demanding lower fares (with tighter seating, reduced luggage allowances, etc...). I could have flown Allegiant, but found AC schedules more practical.

Nope. Air Canada isn't offering any choice, and it's not offering any lower fares. Fares on Rouge are no lower than on mainstream AC, and passengers don't have a choice -- if AC wants to Rouge a route, you're flying Rouge whether you want to or not. And if they Rouge a route after you've bought a ticket, they won't even tell you that they've switched you from AC mainline to Rouge and only if you happen to find out and are willing to wait on hold for an hour or more are you able to switch your flight (and that only happened because the media kicked up a fuss).

No lower prices to consumers, just worse accommodation and worse service.

Of course the principal benefit is that Air Canada is able to lower its cost structure when it deploys Rouge over mainline when servicing an otherwise low yield route. Us vacationers are a cheap lot.

Over the Atlantic, there is a way to win, though. AC, along w/ UA and the LH group belong to a pricing / capacity / revenue sharing arrangement (typically would otherwise be called a price-fixing scheme - but it has regulatory approval) called Atlantic Plus Plus. As scottbee mentions, look for other mainline route options within the alliance and connect in Europe. Space available, the base fare and fuel surcharge are priced the same (with a small variance +/- in final fare based on airport / nav / security accessorial charges based on the city through which you fly.) Scott.

Nope. Air Canada isn't offering any choice, and it's not offering any lower fares. Fares on Rouge are no lower than on mainstream AC, and passengers don't have a choice -- if AC wants to Rouge a route, you're flying Rouge whether you want to or not. And if they Rouge a route after you've bought a ticket, they won't even tell you that they've switched you from AC mainline to Rouge and only if you happen to find out and are willing to wait on hold for an hour or more are you able to switch your flight (and that only happened because the media kicked up a fuss).

 

No lower prices to consumers, just worse accommodation and worse service.

For the flights to Europe, all the regular business routes (London, Paris, Frankfurt, Munich, Copenhagen, Geneva, Zurich) are still mainline Air Canada.

Most of the European Rogue routes that Air Canada has were operated with aircraft in old cabin configurations or they pulled out decades ago. Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Amsterdam, the UK (outside of Heathrow) are destinations that Air Canada can't make work with an aircraft that has a high-end business class. Last time I was able to fly a scheduled carrier non-stop Toronto to Lisbon with CP Air 20 years ago. Manchester was 15 years ago on Air Canada.

Personally I think the "Rogue" branding is a good strategy. The flights have a different level of comfort and are marketed under different branding. As a comparison I have done US Airways on the 767 and it is worse than Rogue and worse that their new aircraft but still sold under the exact same name. Even the United and Delta older 747 cabins I would put on par with Rogue. Hardware swaps on US caries occur on a regular basis.

Personally I think the "Rogue" branding is a good strategy. The flights have a different level of comfort and are marketed under different branding. As a comparison I have done US Airways on the 767 and it is worse than Rogue and worse that their new aircraft but still sold under the exact same name. Even the United and Delta older 747 cabins I would put on par with Rogue. Hardware swaps on US caries occur on a regular basis.

Oh, it's a very good strategy for Air Canada, but it's not a good strategy for it's passengers ;)

Yes, they do have a different level of comfort and service, which would be fine if it were priced at a different level. However, Air Canada prices them at the same level as their mainline flights and seems to think that passengers should feel they are equivalent (which is why they won't bother to tell you if you're flight gets switched from mainline to Rouge). To me, it's like they're pissing down my leg and trying to tell me it's raining. If they want to run a budget airline, they should price it like a budget airline and not tell "leisure" passengers that's it's the same great Air Canada service and amenities.

Air Canada, goes hand in hand with extra blood pressure medication. They are always my carrier of last resort but I've still been stuck with them far too many times. For flights to Florida out of Toronto I'll try to get West Jet or Air Transat first but Air Canada always seems to have a lock on the best return times for the post cruise flight.

My favorite Air Canada piss-off...we and another couple paid extra for a Sat to Sat vacation at a Sandals in Jamaica, Air Canada Vacations changed it to a Sun to Sun vacation so that they could cancel a Sat flight. Of course they wouldn't discount us the extra paid for the Sat departure...and their answer when told a Sunday return just didn't work for us "oh, you can return on Sat but you're still paying the full shot.

DW has said for years that if i have a heart attack Air Canada is probably going to be involved.

I've read a number of comments about how bad Air Canada Rouge is (seatguru, various forums) and wondered if any of the Cruise Critic members have had the misfortune of flying with them?

I returned to YYZ from Dublin on Rouge this past August. Because I returned early the only seat open was in Premium and I am glad that was the case. The back end was packed. The flight was 3 hours late arriving from YYZ because the aircraft was late into YYZ from Jamaica. This meant all the families were even more tired and cranky. I on the other had was more comfortable up front. The idiotic Apple streaming thing they have going is very annoying but better than nothing. I had two other devices, a Playbook and a Macbook Air . Neither would stream the movies. The IPad was free for those up front but the damn thing wouldn't stay upright so I had to hold it so I could view it. The crew as has been mentioned were very young and inexperienced. That will of course change quickly.

DW's parents returned a week later also from Dublin ( flight I was supposed to be on in economy ) and were not happy. Of course the bad weather in Toronto which caused them to be diverted to North Bay for fuel didn't help either.

This past November DS1 and his wife flew Rouge to Barcelona for a cruise but they lucked out. The flight was only a half load so they could stretch out. DS1 is 6'2" and that made a big difference. They didn't worry about the lame entertainment system and just slept for the flight. Their return flights were LH-AC via Frankfurt.

I would choose one of the other options you mentioned. I have had some friends say unkind things about KLM though. One was a short slight woman that flew YVR - AMS this past August and complained bitterly about seat comfort and space. She flies several times a year on US carriers, to Florida primarily, so that was her reference point.

The Canadian competition on the Dublin route is the other low cost airlines including Sunwing and AT. That seems to be true for most of the Rouge routes, little or no non-stop mainline competition. If you don't want Rouge then you have to accept a connection somewhere. Someone suggested the Rouge routes are a cash grab by AC. I certainly agree. I don't share the " anyone but AC " opinion though. My experience with LH and BA has been on a par with AC, not significantly better or worse. I prefer Mainline AC to Westjet.

I prefer Mainline AC to Westjet.

So do I, and I prefer mainline AC to US carriers. I've always been a huge AC supporter, but this is just killing it.....it's hard to support one part of a company when they do something like Rouge in the other part :(

So do I, and I prefer mainline AC to US carriers. I've always been a huge AC supporter, but this is just killing it.....it's hard to support one part of a company when they do something like Rouge in the other part :(

It is the direction several of the other airlines are heading in. They operate subsidiaries on the leisure routes where they can't generate the revenue in the business class cabin to help pay for the flight. Instead they increase the density in economy.

Lufthansa has its Germanwings and Eurowings subsidiary

Swiss has its Edilwisse subsidiary

ANA has Air Japan and Vanilla subsidiary

Qantas has their Jet Star subsidiary

Air France/KLM has transavia.com

It is the direction several of the other airlines are heading in. They operate subsidiaries on the leisure routes where they can't generate the revenue in the business class cabin to help pay for the flight. Instead they increase the density in economy.

Are the subsidiaries priced the same as the mainline airline? I don't normally fly on their routes, so I don't know.

I find it richly ironic that Canadians, who have been whining about Air Canada all my lifetime, now complain that Rouge is not up to snuff and please can I have my regular AC service back that I miss so much? Eh?? I don't get the idea that AC has switched to Rouge and hasn't told you - Rouge flies to Edinburgh, Venice, Barcelona etc that AC has never served before, ever. Mainline AC still does London, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney etc etc. Just for reference, we flew Rouge to Venice in Premium Economy, I am Aeroplan Elite (or whatever they call it these days) and have flown on countless airlines in many parts of the world. Bear in mind too that AC was bankrupt. It's a business folks, their first duty is to survive, if you want cheap - and you all do - you get cheap. Sacre bleu, have you tried Ryanair?

Are the subsidiaries priced the same as the mainline airline? I don't normally fly on their routes, so I don't know.

That is very hard to say. From my own person experience....

I have flown from Saskatoon to Taipei. Air Canada -> Air Canada -> Japain Air (one of ANA lower cost options). Pricing is based on the total trip and how various fare buckets lineup not on the individual segments.

I have been on flights connecting from KLM to transavia.com to get from Canada to Faro Portugal.

United had something similar for a while, I believe it was called TED or something similar. I have been on that but always as a connection with an Air Canada or United flight.

The fare is based on how many empty seats are left on the aircraft and how the computer system builds the connections.

I lived in Saskatoon for some time. We were always on those CRJ regional jets to make connections elsewhere. The CRJ are far worse that anything Rogue has to offer. The fares were not less because of the cramp conditions but on demand and how close the specific flight was to being full.

Last week I priced out a trip to Paris. Under $1,000 on either Air Canada or Alaska/Delta/Air France. I priced it out before Christmas and it was closer to $2,000. If I do it next week, who knows where it will be.

As a side note, rumour on the street is WestJet want to squeeze and extra row or two into there aircraft and it adjusting pitch to make it happen. Moving a little bit closer to Rogue.

I find it richly ironic that Canadians, who have been whining about Air Canada all my lifetime, now complain that Rouge is not up to snuff and please can I have my regular AC service back that I miss so much? Eh?? I don't get the idea that AC has switched to Rouge and hasn't told you - Rouge flies to Edinburgh, Venice, Barcelona etc that AC has never served before, ever. Mainline AC still does London, Paris, Frankfurt, Zurich, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney etc etc. Just for reference, we flew Rouge to Venice in Premium Economy, I am Aeroplan Elite (or whatever they call it these days) and have flown on countless airlines in many parts of the world. Bear in mind too that AC was bankrupt. It's a business folks, their first duty is to survive, if you want cheap - and you all do - you get cheap. Sacre bleu, have you tried Ryanair?

sure rouge has added new flights, but...

off the top of my head -- Mainline AC replaced by rouge (to Europe):

Toronto - Athens

Toronto - Dublin

I'm sure there are others too

Mainline AC replaced by AC "High Density" (458 v 349 seats on a 777-300). The reviews of these planes are every bit as bad as Rouge.

Vancouver - London

Vancouver - Hong Kong

Montreal - Paris

Air Canada are trying to squeeze every last penny from people (did you know their current fuel surcharge Vancouver - London exceeds the airlines total per-seat fuel cost); and there will be a point where it snaps.

Out of Vancouver Air Canada is down to serving only one USA destination (EWR), everything else is Rouge or Jazz.

Are the subsidiaries priced the same as the mainline airline?

Typically, the mainline airline does not fly the route (often withdrawing from it when the subsidiary takes over) so it can be impossible to do a like-for-like comparison.

I understand, and actually mis-wrote. What I meant to ask was are they priced like a mainline airline on that route (i.e. a competitors mainline vs their subsidiary).

RickT ... Air Canada (regular variety) has flights to various European stops via Montréal.

Perhaps this would be better for you than Rouge?

Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, I've seen that AC still flys to some main cities in Europe (Paris, Brussels, Frankfurt, etc) via Montreal. Unfortunately all the direct flights to the Med ports (Barcelona, Rome, Venice) are now Rouge only out of Montreal. I can connect via Toronto and hook up to non-Rouge flights but I'd rather take my chances with European airports than have to deal with Pearson.

At this point my question has been answered and I'll avoid Rouge unless I have no choice or the savings are too great to ignore. I've enjoyed flights on KLM and Air France and often find them a lot less expensive than Air Canada (even Rouge fares).

We have reward flights with UA and the flights are AC. the route being Heathrow/Montreal/Miami. How can I check if these are Rouge flights? Until I found this thread I had never even heard of Rouge. Thanks

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