Evolution of HAL in 2013........

On this first day of the year, a question came to my mind. :D

Those of us who have sailed HAL for many years and many cruises have watched a steady evolution of the cruise line and much has been way in the positive column.

Our first cruise was on Noordam III and though the vibration on that ship was very uncomfortable for me, I knew we had found our cruise line of choice during that cruise.

Statendam came out mere months later, we sailed her during Inaugural Season and we are now some 80 cruises later with HAL.

Then came Vistas and some of us resisted but many of us came to love those ships as well.

Signature met even stiffer resistence but they seem to be welcomed by newer cruisers more than some of the 'older ones'. We are among those who are enjoying Eurodam/Signature more than we expected. Now, here comes Pinnacle and I can't wait to see her.

The down side:

The decrease in crew has been noticed by all who know HAL.

The diminishment in quality, variation and specialness of menus and food is obvious to most of us. I often read the menu these days and cannot find anything that 'excites' me? How about quality food, well prepared and served as used to be? Gone! IMO

So, I got to thinking......

How can they evolve the company more to keep us coming back, charge fares the majority are willing to pay and still offer something we consider worth buying.

If crew gets cut more, it will be unpleasant conditions at best.

If menu quality gets cut more, it will be undesireable IMO seeing dining and lovely meals are important to many of us.

So.......

I suspect and come close to predicting, the next evolution for many of the cruise lines, including HAL, will be a la carte dining. Pay as you order. I think it might be coming to a ship near us sooner rather than later.

I think they may offer a basic Lido included in the fare but all other food on board will be from menu with prices same as any shoreside restaurant and we will pay for what we order.

I know this might glean howling of No Way but I'm wondering not so much what you think of this being likely or possible but more what you think will be the further changes coming in the foreseeable future which will have a real impact on our cruise experience.

We have to think they are not done with cutbacks.......

Where do you think they will make them?

I'm really curious your thoughts.

Thanks.

Rather than go ala carte -- $100 pp more rise in fare (for a typical seven day cruise) should cover that -- so why not hike the fares a small smount? If folks truly value the HAL experience they will pay that. Another $50 should cover more staff/crew.

If cruisers truly jump cruise lines to save a small number of dollars rather than preserve what are now becoming the "bare bones" remnants of the HAL premium line experience --then so be it, the masses have spoken.

I would hate to think that Carnival and HAL would throw out these last remnants of our cruise experience just to increase what are already huge profits -- in other words sacrifice the HAL difference for greed. The price of Carnival stock weathered the recession as well as the Costa disaster -- and up until the last few weeks of fiscal cliff panic, stock prices were up to levels that we have not seen in a few years -- so unless it is sheer greed -- why cut further? Alternately, why not make all Carnival lines the same and just shovel in the bucks?

We have truly enjoyed the HAL experience as well as the wonderful folks we meet on board -- but we are also shopping for an alternative should present trends continue. Haven't found it yet so our hopes are in HAL's corner.

I think there are many cruises who have no loyalty to any cruise line though they may like one more than another.

In this era, I may be wrong but I think a large percentage of the 'newer' cruisers pick their cruise first by price. Where they get the best 'bargain' is where they go. Many are willing to get less because they are paying so much less.

That leaves those who are paying more not so happy.

Sail, I agree with you on how today's younger cruisers make their choices. We have certainly seen that in the evolution of our airlines --- everything is now charged ala carte.

Just waiting for the airline that recognizes that an all inclusive fare might just attract a few passengers who take the time to add up the total tariffs. Eventually cruise lines might also respond in kind but not for a while.

If cruise lines cut service any further, go to pay-for-fee models for meals, entertainment, etc., there will be very little reason to choose cruising over land-based vacations, except for price. Bigger rooms, less hassles with trying to catch a ship with a 2:30 all-aboard time, and more attentive service will be able to be found on land.

It's getting to the point at which the major selling point of a cruise is that it is dirt cheap - that isn't exactly making your fellow pax a more gentile group.

I agree that it appears many of today's cruisers are choosing a line based on price, the lower the better. This is while some of us are saying that we would rather pay more and get the experience we have come to enjoy.

I, for one, am willing to put my money where my mouth is, and I have booked a cruise on a line that appears to offer what HAL used to offer.

Just as newer cruisers have no loyalty to a given line, Seattle has no loyalty to long-time cruisers. Seattle is interested in the bottom line, as they should for stockholder benefit. All this means, though, is that the lack of loyalty will extend to the formerly loyal long-time cruiser.

Sad to say, I am glad I have fewer cruising years in front of me than I have behind me. It was good while it lasted, but the gig is coming to an end.

yes, ruth c. i'm in your 'boat.' but i still think it is not a matter of 'evolution' rather than 'devolution.' sad that so many will never know how things were on hal. i used to love cruising into any port on a hal ship; not so much now. alas.

The remaining attraction for me is becoming a very focused list and that list remains important to us but there are limits.

There are many people on HAL ships we've met along the way who we truly enjoy greatly and many we care about the same as good friends anywhere. As those people retire or even move along to other cruise lines, same as cruisers, that list will be shorter.

We still love the air/the sea/the relaxation and ease of a cruise. I love early morning in the quiet of my veranda watching as we come into port. Our cabins are comfortable and provide everything we need. Sure, in land hotels we have suites that are suites, rooms and bathrooms that are much larger etc but we enjoy our cabins just fine.

We also love the 'hotel' brings us to a new place a number of days throughout our cruises.

Another plus for DH is he is not retired and when he leaves his office for a cruise, there is a 'mystique' among many of the people withwhom he deals in his profession and they think it near impossible to reach him on a ship. Of course, some know better than that but he is left alone on a cruise but not necessarily in a land hotel particularly if it is within the states. That escape from his work is a major reason we cruise so often.

We don't care about the shows, we don't do many excursions anymore, forget about art auction and bingo, there's nothing to buy in the shops, and the HAL cats could miss the ship in port and we'd applaud the 'quiet'. :D

DH would enjoy the casino again if he was able to breathe in there. We used to go in every night but we cannot stand the smoke now.

Depends what is important to each as to whether they continue to cruise and specifically cruise HAL.

We would be very sad to think we would not again see those friends were we to stop sailing HAL.

Unfortunately Holland America currently has the lowest prices (on average) out there in the Mass Market lines for purchasing a cruise and YES I said Mass Market because Holland America is competing in the Mass Market division. It just will not work to raise the prices based on Holland America's current way of selling. This past year of 2012 Holland America had a far more difficult time filling their ships at their regular pricing and had to resort to some of the lowest Flash prices ever seen. This past summer in Alaska while Princess and Norwegian who is their biggest competition in Alaska had sailings closed and totally sold out at 4 to 3 weeks prior to the cruise HAL was giving away their cabins. So to say they need to raise prices to keep the ala carte issue from happening is not going to happen till HAL finds a way to fill those ships much earlier rather than give them away in the final weeks leading up to the voyage. I do however see some slight changes occurring that HAL is actually starting to reduce prices much earlier in hopes of filling the ship several months out but the biggest problem is Holland America has already conditioned those that want to cruise with them to wait till the prices take a big drop after Final Due date. The percentage of cabins that have sold after final has doubled and this really is not the direction that HAL needs to be going. I have stated before they have themselves backed into a corner. I do see signs of them attempting the correction but unknown if we will see any drastic changes in 2013. In the mean time they have no choice but to reduce product and quality in other areas to make up for the much lower priced cabins they continue to sell.

Holland America may need to go the way of Carnival with such things as Early Saver pricing and nonrefundable deposits that will encourage passengers to book early for best pricing and cabin selection then gradually increase pricing. With Carnival and actually Celebrity and Royal Caribbean pricing starts out much lower at 18 months prior to the cruise date and gradually increases, this in turn conditions the cruiser to book early and less likely to cancel because of seeing the pricing higher then what it was when they booked. Granted there are always some sailings with Carnival that occasionally drop in price closer to the sailing and ever more rare is it happening with Celebrity and RCI.

Lisa.......

All that being said, hopefully you'll address my major question...........

Where do you see HAL making further cuts?

We know there will be cuts but what is your speculation as to where?

I think there are many cruises who have no loyalty to any cruise line though they may like one more than another.

 

In this era, I may be wrong but I think a large percentage of the 'newer' cruisers pick their cruise first by price. Where they get the best 'bargain' is where they go. Many are willing to get less because they are paying so much less.

 

That leaves those who are paying more not so happy.

I'd agree and say we've reached the point where we're willing to actually pay more to get more. I think I really need to say cruising to us is a quality issue not a quantity issue. For years and years my wife and I both worked and cruising was a once a year vacation. It was and still is our single major vacation of the year. We had, and actually my wife still has, very senior and demanding positions. Lots of pressure day in and day out. We're talking 60 to 80 hour weeks on good weeks and basically on-call 24/7. We don't want to go on a cruise "hoping" we'll have good food or acceptable service and unfortunately that's what we've been reduced to on HAL. That's not relaxing, that's not a quality vacation to us. I understand that's not the way others look at it. Got it. Cruising just for cruising sake is a good to even great vacation, you'll get no argument from me on that. Maybe we'll get to that level of expectation some day but not right now.

A very thought-provoking discussion. One of the pleasures of cruising has always been the lack of a price on the menu...trying dishes you might not order at home. I'd hate to see a la carte.

I've also been looking at other options lately for the future. Our trips will be more expensive but it may well be worth it to go back to a higher level of quality. We see our horizon shrinking. Our trips are precious and we don't want to waste our once-in-a-lifetime experiences.

It has been depressing to see once-gracious dining room service by wine stewards disappear, to name one example. There is now no time for the onboard staff people to spend a few minutes interacting with passengers. The cruise directors' staffs have been trimmed way back, and we miss some of the activities they used to have. I still remember on my first cruise how I felt like a princess from the kindness and wonderful service of the waiters and stewards.

Prices haven't increased much in years and there are so many more ships and beds to fill...and the recession kept them low and lower. Something had to give. We are now inundated by sales materials on board in our door mail box from all the profit centers... the spa, shops etc. because understandably they have to make it up somewhere. At some point, it will be impossible to ignore all the cutbacks and sales pitches.

Sail, didn't you start a thread like this a few weeks ago under a different heading? Sure, this one is specific to dining, but it's just another speculation about what the next cut will be. And a depressing way to start the New Year:(

Having just cruised on the Eurodam Dec 15-22 I will share my thoughts on HAL. HAL was the first cruise line we cruised - Alaska Volendam 2003. We became hooked on cruising then and have since tried most of the major lines along with more trips on HAL. I have to say when I want a quiet ship atmosphere I choose HAL - perfect for European cruises because when you come back from port dog dead tired all you want is a decent meal and a comfortable, clean bed. I love the Philippino crew and how sweet and accommodating they are. To me, HAL's biggest deficit is their entertainment. It is so stale and boring I don't even bother - hence the choice of HAL for a quiet cruise. No, I don't need an ice skating rink and rock climbing wall, but at 59 I am not quite ready to nod off to the HAL cats playing 40's and 50's music. A venue such as Johnny Rocket's is such fun when the servers launch into a tune in the middle of lunch and guest entertainers that you have actually heard of or off broadway shows would really be a treat. I think they are trying some new things for 2013 with the addition of Dancing with the Stars cruises but I personally would like to see a couple of alternative entertainment choices besides the lousy production shows, the typical magician and the comedian. JMO

Lisa.......

 

All that being said, hopefully you'll address my major question...........

Where do you see HAL making further cuts?

We know there will be cuts but what is your speculation as to where?

I think for the short term we have seen in recent month the cuts that are going to take place, little things like charging for cappuccino in the main dining room. There could be some more slight cut back on quality of food provisions but I also think that will be a ship by ship/sailing by sailing thing based on the profits of any particular sailing. You can bet those sailings that cabins were sold a low prices will not have the higher quality. Lines such as Princess, Carnival and RCI have been practicing that for years. Ships such as the Prinsendam will not see/feel the affects nearly as much due to the price per diam that is charged and already fills the ship. You can bet if you are on a sailing of a longer voyage on a smaller ship that sold out early and really had not flash sales you will not feel much for change, but those larger short cruises that continue to have Flash Sales with prices that drop such as we have seen recently of $349 PP expect that something has to give :rolleyes:

I think other things we could see changed that is not earth shattering but could save them some money in the long run is eliminating Robes from non suite cabins and only supplying them to 4 Star and above. A few amenities such as the bottle of Bubbly in the Suite cabins, that was tested this past year and we could see that permanently removed, as well as the corsages for suite passengers on first formal night. While these seem petty in the long run week after week the cost does add up. The one thing I am not sure about that happened this year was the reduction of Wine Stewards in the Main Dining Room,I am waiting to hear if they have in fact seen a reduction in Wine Sales/alcohol sales if not then this will remain the same but if over all sales have dropped drastically I suspect they could bring back a few more stewards but I think HAL likes that they have freed up more crew cabins.

I honestly think HAL is looking at getting a handle on their pricing and will most likely not attempt to make any more major cut backs till they decide how they will handle that and with making some of the minor changes they are making. Just my personal opinion is the problem that happened the the Veendam and not passing their USPH earlier this year had a earth chattering wake up call to Holland America. Just my opinion they were letting things slide on the older ships in hopes of making the bottom line look better by not spending as much money but that bit them in the rear end. Many management positions were changed or eliminated, new people brought in that most likely make less money. I think at least for the next few months things will be left as they are to see if the changes made make an over all affect.

I will tell you what they are most likely to cut. Me! We usually sail in S Suites. Minimum price for the room is over $ 600.00 a night, plus extras for excurrsions, etc. That amount of money spent goes towards other land vacations VERY well. So currently I went from looking to book my next cruise with HAL to going to Europe instead.

Unfortunately Holland America currently has the lowest prices (on average) out there in the Mass Market lines for purchasing a cruise and YES I said Mass Market because Holland America is competing in the Mass Market division. It just will not work to raise the prices based on Holland America's current way of selling. This past year of 2012 Holland America had a far more difficult time filling their ships at their regular pricing and had to resort to some of the lowest Flash prices ever seen. This past summer in Alaska while Princess and Norwegian who is their biggest competition in Alaska had sailings closed and totally sold out at 4 to 3 weeks prior to the cruise HAL was giving away their cabins. So to say they need to raise prices to keep the ala carte issue from happening is not going to happen till HAL finds a way to fill those ships much earlier rather than give them away in the final weeks leading up to the voyage. I do however see some slight changes occurring that HAL is actually starting to reduce prices much earlier in hopes of filling the ship several months out but the biggest problem is Holland America has already conditioned those that want to cruise with them to wait till the prices take a big drop after Final Due date. The percentage of cabins that have sold after final has doubled and this really is not the direction that HAL needs to be going. I have stated before they have themselves backed into a corner. I do see signs of them attempting the correction but unknown if we will see any drastic changes in 2013. In the mean time they have no choice but to reduce product and quality in other areas to make up for the much lower priced cabins they continue to sell.

 

Holland America may need to go the way of Carnival with such things as Early Saver pricing and nonrefundable deposits that will encourage passengers to book early for best pricing and cabin selection then gradually increase pricing. With Carnival and actually Celebrity and Royal Caribbean pricing starts out much lower at 18 months prior to the cruise date and gradually increases, this in turn conditions the cruiser to book early and less likely to cancel because of seeing the pricing higher then what it was when they booked. Granted there are always some sailings with Carnival that occasionally drop in price closer to the sailing and ever more rare is it happening with Celebrity and RCI.

Lisa - I really hope this happens. We do book a long way out (normally) and it does get tiresome seeing other get a 'steal of a deal' because they waited. a better price for booking early may solve some of the problems.

Sail - as for your question - rather than think about cutbacks I'd like to start the New Year thinking about how HAL is going to improve the brand and bring itself back to a truly premier cruise line. (am I dreaming? maybe - but people will pay for a good experience - look at Oceania, etc.) I think many of us would pay more to have a premier experience.

As to the new cruisers - yes, they may go by price the first time, but generally speaking no the second;) (at least no the people I know).

Happy New Years Day all - may there be many wonderful cruises in everyone's future:)

Sail, didn't you start a thread like this a few weeks ago under a different heading? Sure, this one is specific to dining, but it's just another speculation about what the next cut will be. And a depressing way to start the New Year:(

:confused: I don't know, Startwin..... Did I? If so, it must be something on my mind more than I realized. :eek:

Sorry if you found it and this thread depressive. :o

Please start a happier one and cheer up anyone I may have upset. :)

Whatever enhances the bottom line will be on the table, for sure.....

I will offer my opinion on what I know. Working in the food industry for many years I can tell you that with food cost escalating more than ever over the last few years it is a struggle for restaurants and other foodservice operators to continue to offer the same quality of products without raising prices. They struggle to get customers while margins are shrinking. I realize HAL makes money in many ways but this is a huge cost/labor for them. I have read many threads about food on here and other forums as well. This is certainly subjective but seems like we want to continue having high quality options and would be willing to pay a bit more to get them. Now whether HAL chooses to raise fares or charge separately for premium items is yet to be seen. It seems to work well on other lines like Norwegian and RCI but that model may or may not be a good fit for HAL. I personally would rather pay a bit more on the fare than have to think about what I am spending at every meal. JMO.

Sail, didn't you start a thread like this a few weeks ago under a different heading? Sure, this one is specific to dining, but it's just another speculation about what the next cut will be. And a depressing way to start the New Year:(

I so agree with you - very depressing indeed.:( Do not need depressing thoughts on a New Years Day. Happy New Year everyone!!! :)

I travel solo, so HAL has been a great "fit" for me. However, if they ever decided to go to a la carte dining, they will never see me again. Fixed seating, meeting and making new friends in the MDR is important to me. What really irks me is that I keep asking HAL for brochures, and never receive them. However, I keep getting brochures without asking, out of the blue, from Oceania, Silverseas, and Regent! I'd love advance notice of new itineraries with an early booking incentive. Now that I'm in a position to enjoy longer itineraries and sail more frequently (100 days over the past two years, 116 days already booked for 2013), I feel they couldn't care less whether I return or not because they'd rather have "newbies" whose expectations of what a "premium" cruise line are quite different from what mine are. For the time being, I am sticking with longer cruises on the "S Class" ships and will be trying the Prinsendam for the first time this year and hoping for the best. I'm willing to pay a little more for the ambience I've come to enjoy since I first started sailing with HAL in 1976!

I read with much interest, the responses to this question. Someone mentioned the service on the Oceania line. So I looked up a 10 day cruise

in the Western Caribbean on that line. Starting price From $2,997. I had

trouble finding a 10 day to the same place on Hal. However, I looked at

a typical 14 day Hal to the same place. Starting from $1,699. As discussed on this thread, one can readily see what may be causing these problems of course.

A ten day verses a 14 day for Hal. Could I suggest that if Hal raised their

price by say $500 pp to $2,199, we could see the return of the Hal we knew,

the astonishing food, the violins in the MDR, wine stewards that had time

to talk to you about wine or anything else. I have been on a world cruise and many Grand Voyages on Hal. I certainly would pay that additional price to have Hal come back to where I and my DW want the line to be again. An elagant cruise is steak, escargot, and filet instead of chicken. The extra $500

does not even approach Oceania fare.

I didn't like it when they started having the specialty restaurants and watched as they slowly charged for more and more of what used to be included in your ticket price. If I wanted to just stay in a hotel and eat at pricey restaurants I would, but I like cruising the old way with it all included. It would be very disappointing to have that all disappear.

Like I stated I do not see any huge changes and I also do not see Ala Carte happening any time soon or at least ala carte as many are presuming. While yes HAL could slowly introduce a few items like the charging of the cappuccino in the main dining room and the additional bottle water or sparkling water in the dining room as an Up Charge I doubt it will be well received or even pushed that much if it was items like a better quality steak or totally different entree's. What I do see HAL changing but this is more of a 5+ year plan is the introduction of more / new specialty restaurants. With them looking at adding Tamarind to existing Vistas and then the new ship I believe will have a few new venues. I think that will be the route you see them move to. Not so much the additional up charge of numerous items on the Main Dining Room menu.

NCL went thru a period where their passengers were not always embracing all the new Specialty restaurants and there are still sailings that their Main Dining Room is more packed but it appears they now have a nice mix of those wanting to dine and pay extra. I feel that will also happen with Holland America, but not in 2013 ;)