Europe 2012 Very dissapointing

[Aruba]

While I too prefer the 14-day itineraries, is a 10- or 12-day itinerary really the end of the world as we know it, as some seem to be implying? I must have received a different brochure than some of you -- I thought the European itineraries were fine, and in fact booked 4 of them yesterday.

[pacheco18]

My TA (a volume O booker) tells me the 10 day itineraries are selling well to those who cannot take 2 weeks off.

[hondorner]

...and the latest one - included one night stay at a hotel for Europe. We often fly in 5-7 days in advance and use Starwood points for our hotels pre and post cruise. Now if we wish to go to Europe we have pay for a hotel night in a hotel we have no interest in using. Based on previous pricing for hotels I'm guessing this alone added $400-$500 per person to the quoted fares for 2012. Who asked for this?

I don't know who asked for it, but I see it as a discount. The fare is what it is, but now, all I have to do is opt out of the hotel and voila! I have a $500 discount off the fare. I've never spent $500 for a night in a hotel in my life (in fact, I would be hard pressed to add up all my hotel fares to $500), so it represents a real savings. I don't think the fare has increased dollar for dollar solely because of the hotel option; I think it is a clever marketing device to offer something no other cruise line offers, except sister line Regent, where it has already been a successful marketing tool.

[hondorner]

...Now with tripling capacity...

You've mentioned that twice, and I don't get it. Previous capacity of the 3 R ships was 684 x 3 = 2052. Marina added 1258 to bring it to 3310, an increase of 61%. Now, Riviera will add another 1258, which, if there were no other changes, would total 4568, which is a little more than double the original capacity of the R ships. Tripling would be 6158.

 

But, in fact, Insignia is being leased at the same time that Riviera is launched, so the actual total capacity will be 3884, which is less than double the capacity of the R ships (4104). Since the addition of Marina has already proved very successful at 3310, adding Riviera for a net increase of 574 is hardly going to cause more than a ripple.

[pacheco18]

Don -- you are a smart cookie (LOL) but I do not understand how you can see it as a discount. When a store marks something up 500% and gives you 25% off they make you believe you are a getting a discount. They are just making a little less profit, but still making plenty.

 

O is overcharging for one night in a hotel (by 100%) and you have the option to reject the overcharge. That is not my understanding of a discount.

 

"Marketing tool" is a correct description, but if you believe it's a discount, I have this bridge . . . . it's in Brooklyn . . you know the one. LOLOL

 

Many who are uninformed with take the "free" hotel and the overcharge because they do not even know that they can get a credit and they do not understand the difference between per room and per person rates.

 

I agree with most of what you say, but not this time.

[hondorner]

Don -- you are a smart cookie (LOL) but I do not understand how you can see it as a discount. When a store marks something up 500% and gives you 25% off they make you believe you are a getting a discount. They are just making a little less profit, but still making plenty.

That's the discount.

[pacheco18]

Yikes! I hope Betsy does the shopping in your family

[meow!]

Tripling would be 6158.

 

But, in fact, Insignia is being leased at the same time that Riviera is launched.

There will be three Marina class ships within the next couple of years, and I haven't heard that R ships are leaving the fleet. Am I missing something?

[gillianrose]

There will be three Marina class ships within the next couple of years, and I haven't heard that R ships are leaving the fleet. Am I missing something?

 

Yes, unfortunately. There will be only two Marina class ships, Marina and Riviera, and Insignia (an R ship) is being sent to Hapag-Lloyd on a long term charter.

[hondorner]

Yikes! I hope Betsy does the shopping in your family

I already explained it when I said "I don't think the fare has increased dollar for dollar solely because of the hotel option...", but I'll try again.

 

The credit for opting out of the included hotel for one night is $250 per person at the level at which I book.

 

Marina is shown for a 10 day cruise from Barcelona to Rome on April 2, 2012. The fare for a category C, Ocean View, before any credits, is $4,199. I booked the Maiden Voyage of Riviera in that category, 10 days in a similar period, for the same fare.

 

Marina is listed for that same 10 day cruise from Barcelona to Rome on April 16, 2011. The fare, before any credits but without the included hotel stay, for the same Ocean View cabin, is $3,999.

 

The 2012 cruise represents a $200 increase, less than the $250 dollar credit they are offering in 2012. That's a $50 discount per person, even before taking into consideration other increased costs that may account for at least a portion of the fare increase.

 

I do the shopping, and I wouldn't think of buying a bridge from you...you probably paid too much for it. ;)

[hondorner]

There will be three Marina class ships within the next couple of years, and I haven't heard that R ships are leaving the fleet. Am I missing something?

Yes. As Gillianrose reported, Insignia is being leased in April, 2012. And, the option to build a third Marina class ship was dropped quite some time ago. My figures are accurate.

 

Costs have increased everywhere. There was an article in my newspaper business pages just this morning that was headlined, "Food costs up, construction down." Part of the reason why construction is down is because construction costs are up, higher than resales. You cannot live in the past and be happy with the present.

[MightyQuinn]

Our preference is for longer itineraries. It's not likely we would consider anything less than 14 nites on any cruise line. While going B2B is an option to extend the cruise, I don't think it's quite the same as having a single uninterrupted voyage.

 

My biggest disappointment for 2012 is the apparent decrease in the air credit should you decline Oceania air. I've compared the air credit for identical destination/arrival cities for similar itineraries since 2009. The air credit used to be almost equal to the cost of arranging independent flights. It was a great deal for those of us who prefer to use FF miles or otherwise book our own air. Now the credit has decreased to the point where it's not even close to the cost of those same independent flights. It's now much less attractive to make our own arrangements. So we'll (reluctantly) take included air. Maybe that's the point of the decreasing air credit - to stimulate interest in Oceania air.

[wripro]

Having more cruises per year does not mean more revenue for O. It's a per diem deal which nets them a certain amount pre day per ship no matter how long the cruise.

 

Seven day cruises will attract more younger people. There is a reason most luxury lines have resorted to this now. Their marketing departments must be telling them it will mean more bookings.

 

As for the "free" hotel Oceania has obviously taken a page from Regent's book here. Does anyone believe O has not built that $500 they'll credit you into the price of the cruise? Everyone should take that credit because the hotels they're giving you are hardly worth that amount.

[gillianrose]

Consider the age of the people who are working in the marketing departments. They don't seem to understand that people in their 50's, 60's, and 70's want and can afford something different (in time off and money spent) from what they (in their 20's, 30's, 40's and possibly early 50's) want and can afford.

 

It sounds like they are tailoring cruises to fit their own needs, wants and desires.

[Mura]

As for the "free" hotel Oceania has obviously taken a page from Regent's book here. Does anyone believe O has not built that $500 they'll credit you into the price of the cruise? Everyone should take that credit because the hotels they're giving you are hardly worth that amount.

 

 

Out of curiosity I priced the Grande Bretagne in Athens for this April (we'll be there a year from now) and the cheapest double is 265 Euros ... or about $371 at today's exchange rates.

 

Not cheap, but not $500 either. I have no idea, of course, what the rates will be in April 2012.

[hondorner]

...Does anyone believe O has not built that $500 they'll credit you into the price of the cruise?

Me. I showed in another thread that it was a $50 discount for me. I didn't look up the prices in the more expensive cabins; the fact that $50 is important to me should indicate why :rolleyes:. There could be myriad reasons why the fares have increased, but at least in my category, they have not increased as much as the credit regardless of the reason.

[YoHoHo]

Out of curiosity I priced the Grande Bretagne in Athens for this April (we'll be there a year from now) and the cheapest double is 265 Euros ... or about $371 at today's exchange rates.

 

Not cheap, but not $500 either. I have no idea, of course, what the rates will be in April 2012.

Also I believe O is including transfers from the hotel to the ship, hotel taxes and porterage fees.

 

I've only walked past the Grande Bretagne. Looks like a great place to stay. I am sure you'll enjoy it.

[YoHoHo]

They have raised fares so much through the years (see our earlier post on this thread). Time and again through the years, we have cautioned against over-expansion, and it is like talking in the wilderness. Now with tripling capacity, and at a time of turmoil resulting in skyrocketing oil prices, and earthquake cum nuclear disaster, unfortunately about the worst timing possible.

Not arguing with your research into the price increases just a comment on supply and demand.

 

Increasing capacity, not just with O but with all new cruise line capacity, increases supply and availability so normally would reduce prices in order to increase demand.

 

I suspect real cost (O has $1.2 billion :eek: in these two new ships, $600 million per I believe - it takes a lot of fares just to pay the interest never mind for the Lalique crystal) plus marketing beliefs and new-to-O and new-to-cruising passengers that is increasing prices beyond the increase in the number of cabins available.

[Leonid]

Consider the age of the people who are working in the marketing departments. They don't seem to understand that people in their 50's, 60's, and 70's want and can afford something different (in time off and money spent) from what they (in their 20's, 30's, 40's and possibly early 50's) want and can afford.

 

It sounds like they are tailoring cruises to fit their own needs, wants and desires.

 

Great post. Hondorner, listen up. Your posts are interesting, but not always on the mark.

[meow!]

I suspect real cost (O has $1.2 billion :eek: in these two new ships, $600 million per I believe - it takes a lot of fares just to pay the interest never mind for the Lalique crystal) plus marketing beliefs and new-to-O and new-to-cruising passengers that is increasing prices beyond the increase in the number of cabins available.

You have a really good point, thank you. In that case, passengers are indirectly paying for Oceania's over-expansion. In fact, this present thread is the first on this board that shows such a unified stance against price increases. (We are against all unreasonable price increases, whichever the line).

[meow!]

I've only walked past the Grande Bretagne. Looks like a great place to stay. I am sure you'll enjoy it.

We walked by the Grande Bretagne in 2008, it was a very nice upscale hotel in the fashionable district, but it was expensive. Instead we stayed at the Electra Hotel, on a main shopping street fairly close to the Grande Bretagne, at perhaps half the price. Hope this helps.

[TKS]

[quote=MightyQuinn;28381178

 

My biggest disappointment for 2012 is the apparent decrease in the air credit should you decline Oceania air. I've compared the air credit for identical destination/arrival cities for similar itineraries since 2009. The air credit used to be almost equal to the cost of arranging independent flights. It was a great deal for those of us who prefer to use FF miles or otherwise book our own air. Now the credit has decreased to the point where it's not even close to the cost of those same independent flights. It's now much less attractive to make our own arrangements. So we'll (reluctantly) take included air. Maybe that's the point of the decreasing air credit - to stimulate interest in Oceania air.

 

We cruised O first in 2009, and found the credit for air was far less than we would pay to book our own air then too. So I don't really see any difference this year.

 

I may be wrong (and if I am, I'm sure someone will correct me), but since O originates and ends its cruises in a relatively limited number of cities, I have to believe they work with the airlines to get bulk discounts on airfares which we, as individuals, could never match.

 

I've used air deviations on each of the two O cruises we've taken, and found the company to be fair and accommodating in their approach. We've gotten the airlines we requested (or, more importantly, not those we didn't want!), reasonable schedules (not more legs, late at night because they're cheaper), and in both cases only paid the $100 p/p air deviation fee, no additional charges.

 

Kay

[meow!]

Yes. As Gillianrose reported, Insignia is being leased in April, 2012. And, the option to build a third Marina class ship was dropped quite some time ago. .

So they have become a bit more practical and back-tracked from their original plan. That is surely a step in the right direction. Still, it is a doubling (instead of tripling) of berths.

[DOJO466]

Consider the age of the people who are working in the marketing departments. They don't seem to understand that people in their 50's, 60's, and 70's want and can afford something different (in time off and money spent) from what they (in their 20's, 30's, 40's and possibly early 50's) want and can afford.

 

It sounds like they are tailoring cruises to fit their own needs, wants and desires.

 

I beg to differ with you here. We want and can afford these cruises you say 50's/60's etc. want. We cannot take an extended amount of vacation time (we get 10 weeks per year) at any one time due to time constraints placed by our employer (sorry some of us do have bosses/employers). We just got off Marina after 18 days, DH's boss almost made us cancel and he was told to limit his max time off to 14 days, so until he retires we welcome the shorter trips in Europe, not saying we like it but at least we are given the opportunity to continue sailing on a wonderful line and are hoping to do #6 soon.

[Senior Citizen]

I've used air deviations on each of the two O cruises we've taken, and found the company to be fair and accommodating in their approach. We've gotten the airlines we requested (or, more importantly, not those we didn't want!), reasonable schedules (not more legs, late at night because they're cheaper), and in both cases only paid the $100 p/p air deviation fee, no additional charges.

 

Kay

 

Isn't the deviation cost $200 in 2012?

 

I agree with whoever said that we can't look back. But, I do long for 2005 when we paid $5,000 for an inside cabin on a B2B (28 days total) Stockholm to Dover/Dover to Civitavecchia. Of course costs have gone up since that time and Oceania is entitled to charge more for their product. Doesn't mean I like it but that's the way everything is going.

 

I, like others, was very disappointed in the 10 day itineraries that are port intensive. I like a mix of sea days when we can play trivia, go to tea, play bridge, socialize... All of these activities are a very important part of the cruising experience.

 

But I couldn't stand on principle and decided to book two cruises. I'm going to back them up with cruises on other lines and/or land travel because O's possible B2B itineraries mean repeating a number of ports if not all of them.

 

I'm hoping that their Winter 2012/2013 itineraries will be longer. Can you imagine going around the horn in 10 days??

 

Hi Don and Betsy. I understand the point you were making about the hotel "discount." I wish they were discounting the airfare too so we could find someplace to save some money!