Celebrity dumps disabled man on island.

[wolfganghowell]

Hi Dan, I appreciate the clarification. As the daughter of a journalist, I applaud your stance to keep the opinions out. ;) More journalists should remember that cardinal rule.:) Report the news. Let the viewer or reader form their opinions.

 

And as cnote said, ADA compliant does NOT mean fully accessible - as anyone who has been temporarily or permanently disabled knows.(I've dealt with it first and second hand, thankfully temporarily.)

 

Hmmm- if Mr Keskeny's wife had been able to go on the cruise, would they be pursuing litigation on the so called non compliance issue? If the butler had been willing to go above and beyond his duty and provide bed and toilet assistance every time it was requested, would he have received extra tips and praise to corporate? This just seems spiteful that his unrealistic vacation was ruined because a private company that had a contract stating you must be self sufficient to travel expected him to honor HIS contract. And as a shareholder, it ticks me off that our money is being spent on this kind of nuisance suit.

[AlanAllyn]

The slope was up into the bathroom -- he said he had no issue exiting the bathroom on the downward slope.

It sounds like Celebrity retrofitted the cabin by putting a slight ramp up to the bathroom floor level. I always thought that a ramp would satisfy ADA.

[TMLAalum]

Particularly, I think your 4 points below are great. I'll bet there are a few more nuggets to be gleaned from this thread, but I'll leave it to others to ferret them out!

 

As for me, I'm an actual lawyer acting as arm-chair lawyer on this thread. I can see the arguments from serveral points-of-view, but not all. And yes, I also believe we are all essentially wasting our time on here, but guess what, it's kind of fun. And without this thread and this board we would have not learned such valuable things as:

 

1) ADA compliant might not really mean fully accessible

2) Nude cruisers bring, use towels when they sit in public areas of the ship

3) Many disabled passengers use and enjoy Celebrity, even if it's not perfect

4) That there are many blind attorneys out there

 

And I'm sure many other things. I people just wanted information about their cruises they could go any number of places for checklists and FAQ's; but we want little more. So we come here to talk, comment, criticize, discuss.

 

If we could only dicuss that which we have first hand knowledge of - things would get way boring - I mean - how would teachers teach?

[WK-Orlando]

This really does look like a setup to me. "An activist..." First he was traveling with his wife and then alone. Has been on ships before yet did not realize assistance would be required. Expected 'personal' assistance from stewards that are not authorized or trained thus a big liability risk to the company if they try to act in that capacity and there is a problem.

 

Agree the line should have refunded his fare for PR sake but this man is no fool and knew traveling alone would be a problem.

 

Sorry, but I smell a setup.

[caladezi]

When will this thing die???

[sherri3802too]

I think everyone in this story is at fault.

 

RCL/Celebrity should have facilities that meet ADA requirements if they sail from a US port. If there is a non-ADA problem entering the bathroom, then RCL/Celebrity better figure out how to fix it to be compliant. This may be a basis for legal action, irrespective of Celebrity's contract, but I'm not a lawyer.

 

RCL/Celebrity on-board management apparently showed little "compassion" and understanding...but I am left wondering just how confrontational the passenger was vs asking nicely for help.

 

There is no reason given why they put the passenger off the ship...so can't comment on that issue.

 

The passenger should not expect a butler or staff member of the ship to provide routine assistance....if one needs that type of care, they should take a companion with them. There is a shady line between helping someone who stumbles once...and helping a passenger each time they want to go to the bathroom or if they fall off the toilet seat. Butler's are not for personal/touch the body type of assistance...that's really pushing.

 

I just read about the case and I agree with the person above.

I do not believe this man should have been travelling alone.

From my reading, it seems that a foreign regsitered ship does not have to comply with ADA rulings.

I also had the impression this man HAD booked a specific cabin that was supposedly for people with disabilities and his beef is that the cabin toilet and bed did not in fact conform to the specifications he expected when booking his cabin.

 

That could be true. I know a woman who has a daughter with cerbral palsy and she often finds that many motels with rooms labelled as suitable for the disabled are in fact, not really suitable for the severely disabled as they don't fulfil the stringent requirements.

 

Be that as it may, this passneger seems to need a high level of care and it is plain in the literature and online that that level of care in NOT available on board.

The passenger states he fell off the toilet but there was a fellow passenger in the cabin already, recruited to help him. Is that reasonable? I don't think it is. If you need help to even go to the toilet, then you need someone with you on the cruise. You can't rely on the help of 'kind people'. That's not a fair expectation.

The man knocked back the idea of paying for a nurse 24/7 as he said it would be like paying for a cadillac when he only needed a ford (or words like that).

So.. wouldn't it have been cheaper for him to pay for a relative or neighbour or friend to go along to help him?

 

I guess I don't know all the facts, but my take on it is that cabins should conform to stringent standards-though whether they are US standards is a moot point if it isn't a US ship. But I imagine requirements are similar from country to country.

But any passenger should be able to be independent. If they are not, there are special travel tours arranged especially for disabled people who will need assistance and this man may be better off on one of those.

[annsplans]

I had not been informed of the termination of common sense.

[detroitcruiser]

Hi everyone,

 

Just posted an update on the story following interviews with Mr. Keskeny, his attorney, the line, ADA experts:

 

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=4449

 

There are still numerous unanswered questions -- like precisely what Celebrity means when they say the Sky Suite is ADA compliant -- but at this point, the line has said that it has no further comment. There are lawyers involved now, so I suppose they'll do their talking during 1) binding arbitration (the contractual dispute relating to the cruise cost, $4,000-plus, and the cost of transportation home, $1,500) and 2) if there is a separate ADA compliance lawsuit that results from the whole ordeal. Keskeny's attorney, Richard Bernstein, is adamant that there will be.

 

If anyone has any questions, I'll do my best to answer them. I'm by no means an expert in ADA legalese -- and how the ADA applies to foreign-flagged vessels generally, and to this incident specifically -- but I can certainly reach out to experts if need be. It's an understatement to say that the ADA 'standards,' 'guidelines' and the legal application and enforcement thereof (by the Department of Justice and the Department of Transportation) is ... complicated.

 

Mr. Askin, could you please explain how you can write an article about ADA issues on cruise ships without citing the ONE US Supreme Court case that specifically deals with that issue? Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd., 545 U.S. 119 (2005). The case clearly explains that foreign cruise ships based in US ports have to comply with the ADA.

[jc foster]

Mr. Askin, could you please explain how you can write an article about ADA issues on cruise ships without citing the ONE US Supreme Court case that specifically deals with that issue? Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd., 545 U.S. 119 (2005). The case clearly explains that foreign cruise ships based in US ports have to comply with the ADA.

Hmmm, that sounds good to me. There must be a few bucks here for an attorney and his client somewhere.

[awboater]

After reading the update, seems the story has changed quite a bit.

[bananavan]

This story is already on the Daily Mail (UK ) website. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1377421/Man-multiple-sclerosis-booted-nudist-cruise.html

If they have picked it up, it has to be a titilating story.

Somehow I think it strange that this was his second cruise, the first being another nude cruise on Carnival in 2009. On that cruise his assigned roommate and cabin steward helped him out.

According to a quote from Mr K to the Daily Mail affiliate, he is a nudist at heart, but in the end he kept his trousers on.

That is just plain creepy. If you are into the freedom that nudity brings, terrific. But if you chose to stay clothed on a clothing optional cruise that has to mean that the freedom to let it all hang out is not what brought you onboard.

[e150club]

Good thing he wasn't on the Achille lauro cruise.

[sarge98]

Some additional info on the above. Per the Macomb Mich Daily newspaper Thurs April, 14, 2011. The man does have MS. He booked the ticket through a TA, the article says his wife was supposed to go with him but became ill shortly before the trip and didn't go along. The article says he never filled out a special needs form because they never asked him to do so. According to the cruise line the room was for handicapped, per the man it wasn't in compliance. After the toilet incident the line told him he could stay on the ship is he hired a private nurse which the man refused because it was too expensive, so the line did put him off the ship. Some info from the newspaper.The man was in a $4000 suite on a 10 day trip.

[alexkrn46]

Good thing he wasn't on the Achille lauro cruise.

 

That cracked me up.

[Chelly]

Good thing he wasn't on the Achille lauro cruise.

 

Oh you are bad, but I am struggling not to laugh.

[98Charlie]

Some additional info on the above. Per the Macomb Mich Daily newspaper Thurs April, 14, 2011. The man does have MS. He booked the ticket through a TA, the article says his wife was supposed to go with him but became ill shortly before the trip and didn't go along. The article says he never filled out a special needs form because they never asked him to do so. According to the cruise line the room was for handicapped, per the man it wasn't in compliance. After the toilet incident the line told him he could stay on the ship is he hired a private nurse which the man refused because it was too expensive, so the line did put him off the ship. Some info from the newspaper.The man was in a $4000 suite on a 10 day trip.

Pretty much what was in the original article. Not surprising since both the Macomb Daily and Oakland Press are both owned by the Journal Register Company.

 

Charlie

[RDC1]

Mr. Askin, could you please explain how you can write an article about ADA issues on cruise ships without citing the ONE US Supreme Court case that specifically deals with that issue? Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd., 545 U.S. 119 (2005). The case clearly explains that foreign cruise ships based in US ports have to comply with the ADA.

 

 

Yes and No. The ruling indicated that they needed to comply to some degree, but that they did not have to make permanent structural changes.

 

Also the issue in that case was that the cruise line was not willing to take minor actions for accomodation such as some adjustments in the dining room organization for example.

 

So it is not a requirement for full compliance.

 

This case will come down to the contract and if the terms concerning a passenger that requires assistence must be accompanied by a person to provide. Clearly while the law, even in US businesses, must provide accommadation, I do not think that even in a hotel in the US that the hotel must provide someone to assist the individual in the way requested here. If they cannot require a hotel to do so, which does not have that language in their terms. then I am hard pressed to see how they can require a cruise ship to do so. If the contract language stands then he was clearly in violation of it.

[24butterfly]

I read what was posted today on Cruise Critic re: this. Too bad--this guy is a lawsuit looking to happen. I hope he gets nothing except blacklisted from all cruise lines. Nobody is going to want to deal with him after this mess.... Too bad Celebrity has to be entangled in this crap.

[Maryscooking]

Given the reports of other cruisers, this one "accessible" Sky-Suite on the Century appears to not be truly accessible. One must ask the question, if he had been given an appropriate room would any of this have happened. Many of your are making an illogical leap that wheel chair bound and being self sufficient are mutually exclusive. With appropriate accommodations, many people in wheel chairs can be self-sufficient.

 

You keep saying this, but the man himself has admitted that the bump in the carpet was a minor issue, and that he had to pre-arrange for helpers to come and get him in and out of bed and on/off the toilet. Many people in wheelchairs are self-sufficient, but this man clearly is not, by his own statements.

 

Now if someone has actual evidence that the toilet in this room is not ADA compliant, then that is a different story.

[CruiseDawg2001]

Good thing he wasn't on the Achille lauro cruise.

 

really...shoulden't laugh at that...but... can't help it.

[CruiseDawg2001]

I don't see how this is the fault of the cruise line in any way. Apart from the fact that this guy immediately went out and retained a well known ambulance chaser (second in infamy only to the parasite that is Geoff Feiger), every single situation he encountered was the result of his own lack of attention to his needs.

He ASSUMED that he wouldn’t need to make the cruise line or the charter company aware of his special needs, instead ASSUMING that a butler would be able to help him with tasks normally preformed in a nursing home, and further ASSUMED that his 'accessible' stateroom was actually ADA compliant, which it is not required to be. Now, of course, he ASSUMES that everything is everyone else's fault.

While he may think he has an argument based on the stateroom not being fully ADA compliant, said argument should be invalid based on his lack of foresight & research; he knows that he needs extensive assistance when he travels and chose not to verify that such assistance would be provided. When you break it down, it's really pretty arrogant.

[JLC@SD]

What this guy is going to cause.........is that cruise lines will start requiring a doctor's statement........ that a disabled person is able to take care of themselves ......if they travel alone....;)

[cruisecrasy]

The man had a plan, he knows he needs help and the staff should never have to help with some of the needs he has (toileting, dressing and getting out of bed) Those are jobs of trained people.

Besides all that what the heck was he doing leaving his ill wife anyway?

 

Likely the simple answer is that this cld be a 'setup'...or to give him the benefit of the doubt - perhaps he simply cared more about not wasting his cruise fare, 'cause the wifes fare was already forefit as they had no insurance, than he did about his wifes health...

 

Good question - wondered about that myself!

 

JLC@SD - I so agree & it likely cld be a positive thing..:)

[Dan Askin]

Mr. Askin, could you please explain how you can write an article about ADA issues on cruise ships without citing the ONE US Supreme Court case that specifically deals with that issue? Spector v. Norwegian Cruise Line Ltd., 545 U.S. 119 (2005). The case clearly explains that foreign cruise ships based in US ports have to comply with the ADA.

 

Thanks for your comment. In short, it's a question of scope.

 

In the piece, we tried to focus only on 1) Celebrity saying the cabin was compliant. 2) Mr. Keskeny saying it was not. 3) Asking if Keskeny could have been "reasonably accommodated" per 1990 ADA.

 

We then tried to examine, in brief, what makes a cabin ADA compliant (toilet height, bed height were the focus for Mr. Keskeny). This is a nuanced issue when it comes to cruise ships, and Celebrity did not illuminate us on *how* the Sky Suite was compliant. The line is offering no additional comment at this time.

 

You're right in a sense: Spector vs. Norwegian did indicate that foreign-flagged vessels departing from and returning to U.S. ports can be subject to ADA. Here's a link to the ruling.

 

Of the many nuanced ways ADA arguments may play out from Spector vs. NCL, one of the problems is the Access Board has only issued non-mandatory "Passenger Vessel Draft Guidelines" as a prescriptive measure. To my understanding, these are not standards but merely guidelines, and while ADA experts would argue that following said guidelines are in the best interest of the industry (and the passengers they wish to target), the extent to which cruise lines follow the guidelines may vary. NCL said they are fully ADA compliant, but did not explain *what* this means. Is NCL adhering to the non-enforceable draft guidelines (PVAG)? To the Standards for Accessible Design that are enforceable by the DOJ?

 

When you have no official structural standards pertaining to passenger vessels, yet you are required to provide "access" to disabled passengers, which standards are you legally obliged to adopt? I'm not a law expert -- this is just what various sources have explained.

 

So again, the big question for this particular piece is whether the cabin was ADA compliant, and more importantly, on what grounds was the cabin ADA compliant. Secondly, did the line attempt to reasonably accommodate Keskeny when problems arose.

 

There may be a follow-up in our future that more broadly examines the role of the cruise industry when it comes to ADA -- but that's absolutely a separate (and very lengthy) piece.

[awboater]

The last cruise we were on, there was a severely handicapped person that had this cool wheelchair. It is really hard to call it a wheelchair as it was more of a self powered scooter, but had the ability to lift him up and down. While he was traveling with others, he was often by himself, so it seemed as though it made him fairly self-sufficient. I don't know if this was a rental or his own chair, but perhaps that would have been the solution to this unfortunate situation.