Tipping

[world~citizen]

If we couldn't afford to pay the HSC, we wouldn't cruise - and probably shouldn't.

 

This really is the biggest no-brainer in the history of no-brainers.

 

Pony-up. Feel good!

[startwin]

Does anyone know for sure that the crew is given a list of pax who have had the auto tips removed? And if so, what is the purpose?

 

I'm also in the camp in favour of increasing fares to pay a decent wage, instead of having them rely on tips to make the wages up to a livable level.

[rallydave]

Does anyone know for sure that the crew is given a list of pax who have had the auto tips removed? And if so, what is the purpose?

 

I'm also in the camp in favour of increasing fares to pay a decent wage, instead of having them rely on tips to make the wages up to a livable level.

 

 

Very confused over this whole discussion. HAL is a US company and typically service industry employees in the US get paid relatively small salaries and make their living with tips. In fact, servers are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage in the US. And, don't know of any cruise lines where tips aren't paid to employees including all inclusive lines where tips are included.

 

If HAL were to go back to the no gratuities policy of days past, they would probably not be competitive with similar cruise lines. Suggest this thread has outlived itself as nothing will change no matter what the people here say.

[cruz chic]

If HAL were to go back to the no gratuities policy of days past, they would probably not be competitive with similar cruise lines. .

To be clear the policy was no tipping required. That's likely the reason they changed it because too many people cheaped out.

[world~citizen]

Does anyone know for sure that the crew is given a list of pax who have had the auto tips removed? And if so, what is the purpose?

 

I'm also in the camp in favour of increasing fares to pay a decent wage, instead of having them rely on tips to make the wages up to a livable level.

 

How decent?;):eek::D

[DFWGUYZ]

Why is this so complicated? The lines suggest the somewhat appropriate tip...suck it up...give it....these cabin stewards-stewardiss' deserve it ...fork it over cheapskate! Jesus, Mary and Joseph...you take, take and take but don't want to give...if you can't afford the entire cruise, including additional tips the the staff that take (for the most part) very good care of you and your cabin....do a land based vacation...hope you fare better there. UGH! Something for Nothing is so dated.....

[startwin]

Why is this so complicated? The lines suggest the somewhat appropriate tip...suck it up...give it....these cabin stewards-stewardiss' deserve it ...fork it over cheapskate! Jesus, Mary and Joseph...you take, take and take but don't want to give...if you can't afford the entire cruise, including additional tips the the staff that take (for the most part) very good care of you and your cabin....do a land based vacation...hope you fare better there. UGH! Something for Nothing is so dated.....

 

Bit of an over-reaction to a discussion about tipping... I don't recall anyone saying they didn't want to tip. Chill out;)

[SALAD MUNCHER]

This subject is always very emotive, and it almost always becomes a USA vs Rest of the World issue on these boards, I think mainly because in USA service staff are paid really low wages whereas in the UK and Europe (don't know about other areas) their wage is governed by a legal minimum amount (in UK around £6.70 per hour equiv to $10 ish).

Please read this very informative article written by an ex member of a cruise ship, which I came across on this site, it might give you a better insight into life on board, including tipping!

 

http://www.cruisecritic.co.uk/articles.cfm?ID=261

[O2B@C]

... I'd be happier if they just paid ALL of them a decent wage and forgot about automatic tips. Then you could tip people as and when for very good service. Just my opinion. ...

 

You'll find a lot of people with you on this. Including me.

 

But it's not going to happen, because a large part of the passenger base of most mainstream cruise ships are American. And tipping is deeply ingrained into American culture. ... The system of a compulsory service charge (or compulsory tip) goes a long way towards a workable compromise, IMHO. Those who want to tip can regard it as compulsory tipping. And we can all rest assured that once we've paid the daily charge, we have done our minimum tipping requirement. Any further tips can genuinely be "as and when for very good service".

 

I agree, on all counts - wages should be higher, with no auto-tip, but that's not going to happen, and as long as it doesn't, it's only fair to keep the auto-tip in place unless service has been woefully inadequate (enough to warrant a pay cut). I also agree with the earlier poster who pointed out that ALL the crew contribute to the passengers' experience, whether or not they do something for you personally.

 

And yes, rewarding exceptional or extra service with extra tips is optional under this system. But people: the crew work incredibly hard under difficult conditions. Most of us who can afford to cruise can also afford to be at least a little generous. And if you honestly can't, or just won't, please consider writing a positive note to the appropriate manager about crew members who have gone out of their way to be helpful.

[RuthC]

This subject is always very emotive, and it almost always becomes a USA vs Rest of the World issue on these boards, I think mainly because in USA service staff are paid really low wages whereas in the UK and Europe (don't know about other areas) their wage is governed by a legal minimum amount (in UK around £6.70 per hour equiv to $10 ish).

Payment to crew onboard ships is based on the US model, not the European one. So, then it becomes a "When in Rome ..." thing for passengers from cultures where tipping is not the norm.

It is appropriate to leave the Hotel Service Charge in place because that is what you would have paid if the wages were higher. You just would have paid that (and more) in additional fare.

[SALAD MUNCHER]

Payment to crew onboard ships is based on the US model, not the European one. So, then it becomes a "When in Rome ..." thing for passengers from cultures where tipping is not the norm.

 

It is appropriate to leave the Hotel Service Charge in place because that is what you would have paid if the wages were higher. You just would have paid that (and more) in additional fare.

 

The article I mentioned, copied below for those who may not be able to open the link, was written by an American, Joyce Gleeson-Adamidis, who pens Cruise Critic's original "Under the Captain's Table" series of stories, knows the ins and outs of onboard life -- both as a cruise ship staff member and as the wife of Celebrity Cruises' venerable Captain Adamidis.

Here is her opinion on tips and HSC on board:-

 

One of the biggest misconceptions -- and quite possibly this is what leads to folks' reluctance to tip -- is that cruise passengers are shouldering the paychecks for crew members. But I suggest you don't listen to all the stories of such poverty-stricken crew members with low salaries and terrible lives. When tipping, you are not paying for every crewmember onboard the ship. Each position on the ship is paid according to the industry rates for that position. So, for instance, a waiter can earn between $2,000 and $3,200 per month (while a busboy will pull in $1,200 - $1,800). A cabin steward's monthly salary is anywhere between $1,600 and $2,600. A massage therapist will rake in $2,000 - $3,000. (Note: As an FYI, average salaries for cruise staffers who don't earn tips include $3,000 - $7,000 for a cruise director and $1,500 - $2,200 for a social hostess).

 

For those who come from under-developed countries, as do the great majority of crew members who work as waiters or cabin stewards, what they earn on the ships is far better than that which they could earn at home. In their countries, good-quality positions are numbered and rare; they seek work outside to provide for their families.

 

It is important to understand that jobs onboard parallel jobs on land. Most have the goal to create a foundation that they can parlay into a career or business back home. I know several cruise staffers who have succeeded in opening their own restaurants, convenience stores, tailor shops, Amway distribution businesses, children's day care centers and more. Yet others have made it a full career onboard: paid for their kids' and grandkids' education, and only later to retire with their kids already having moved on with life.

 

I pity those who miss their families and haven't had the opportunities that we have to spend important events with them. Think of the sacrifices they make.

 

There Are Guidelines

 

Allow me to take a second to venture off the topic of gratuities to highlight something behind the scenes that will help to make sense of it all. For each and every position onboard, there are many rules and guidelines that are set by the International Transport Federation. The ITF identifies the minimum salaries that can be paid by the cruise lines.

 

The organization also establishes maximum working hours, minimum relaxation time that's available, number of breaks they can take during each work stint -- and even the amount of time allowed for each break.

 

Each cruise company has their own salary guidelines set based on those stipulated by ITF. Other factors involved in determining salaries are: the size of the ship, the age of the ship, the number of passengers onboard, the destination of the ship and the nationalities of passengers traveling (sadly, it is a fact there are some nationalities known to never tip and the crew must be compensated).

 

In fact, that leads to another question I often hear from passengers: Why not include tipping in the overall fare?

 

In some cases, cruise lines do include gratuities in their cruise fares and you are not expected to tip -- some even go so far as to ask you not to! Typically these include higher end lines like Silversea, Seabourn and Hapag-Lloyd.

 

In other cases, cruise lines base their tipping policies on regional distinctions. For ships marketed heavily toward European travelers, some lines build tips into the cruise fare (while folks still pay out on their own on others).

 

There is a benefit to the tipping system we're all familiar with. When you look at the lower prices that are being offered on other lines, it is because you are given free rein and choice to pay tipping according to what you see fit and what is in the privacy of your own budget. If it turns out that the tipping crew salaries are not meeting the guidelines, companies will be forced to include tipping intheir prices. The price for you will drastically increase -- while your option to experience this form of vacation lessens.

 

When to Tip

 

One strategy many Cruise Critic members recommend is to offer a partial tip to your steward and waiter at the beginning of the cruise (paying the remainder at the end). Here's a surprise: Not always is an "early" tip taken positively. Crew have confided their feelings of wonder (and a sense, sometimes, of being insulted) that when tipped early, they feel that you think they cannot do the job right without that money or that it is a "little" bribe. Their choice to show you how they genuinely work has been taken away.

 

Here's another hint. What makes a serious difference, to them, beyond receiving gratuities, is you. Your smile is going to travel more miles than your cash. Show kindness. Treating them with a ray of light, laughter and a good time will set the pattern of great service.

 

And When Not To!

So whom should you never tip? Right up front I'll tell you: no officers, such as the chief engineer, the captain, the hotel director, social hostess or cruise director. Tipping an entertainer or dancer? Goodness, no. But I can say there are other ways to show recognition that can make it fun and worthwhile. Throughout the times my husband and I have been onboard, we have received our share of unusual gifts. Some are of sentimental value and others are a great surprise.

 

Occasionally in our long stint of service passengers have expressed their delight by sending us gifts. Passengers sent gifts to the cabin usually after they had already disembarked, knowing that after meeting us we would refuse them! We have received presents ranging from gemstone statues to gemstone globes, from a pair of fake teeth (really!) to articles of clothing and from a Super Bowl keychain to an expensive watch.

 

Those who want to do so can -- and at the same time it's perfectly fine not to.

 

I just thought it was interesting reading about this topic from another perspective and I feel it gives helpful advice to those 'should I shouldn't I' passengers!

[delgados129]

All very interesting, but it doesn't explain why you can get some of the world's best customer service in places where tipping is neither expected nor given.

 

The research suggests that you are involved in an inefficient transaction at that point; paying more than you would have otherwise for the same level of service.

[vicocala]

Well, the post two above this one steals some of my thunder. I would suggest if you want a particular person to receive something above and beyond so they don't have to share is to buy them a gift or even better, bring something unique from where you live to give them.

 

My steward's main concern has always been that I rate them excellent on my rating card. I try to name them specifically.

[Globaliser]

The research suggests that you are involved in an inefficient transaction at that point; paying more than you would have otherwise for the same level of service.

I'm not in a position to argue about this in relation to a society in which tipping is the social norm.

 

However, the article's abstract makes clear the ambit of what is being discussed:-

The analysis suggests that in many cases the social norm of tipping has economic justification, because it solves some inefficiency and increases welfare. In particular, tipping can promote good service where other mechanisms fail to do so.

So the applicability of this to a society in which the social norm is to not tip (especially in societies in which tipping is positively frowned upon), and where other mechanisms consistently promote good service in the absence of a social norm of tipping, is highly questionable.

 

That is why I said that the article doesn't explain why you can get some of the world's best customer service in places where tipping is neither expected nor given.

[Wakepatrol]

I smell "Cheap" and it stinks real bad:eek:

[delgados129]

I'm not in a position to argue about this in relation to a society in which tipping is the social norm.

 

However, the article's abstract makes clear the ambit of what is being discussed:-So the applicability of this to a society in which the social norm is to not tip (especially in societies in which tipping is positively frowned upon), and where other mechanisms consistently promote good service in the absence of a social norm of tipping, is highly questionable.

 

That is why I said that the article doesn't explain why you can get some of the world's best customer service in places where tipping is neither expected nor given.

 

From an economic analysis point of view, you're getting "some of the world's best customer service" because it's included in the price. The article notes that the most efficient economic transaction results from the delivery of the service with a tip after the service is delivered. You may have paid X and could have recieved the exact same "best customer service" by paying X-Y; where Y represents the amount you overpaid in the inefficient transaction. Granted, Y may be 0, but you never get an opportunity to learn the value of Y by having it included in the price; adding to the potential inefficiency and a plausible explanation for the genesis of the whole tipping phenomenon in the first place.

[world~citizen]

From an economic analysis point of view, you're getting "some of the world's best customer service" because it's included in the price. The article notes that the most efficient economic transaction results from the delivery of the service with a tip after the service is delivered. You may have paid X and could have recieved the exact same "best customer service" by paying X-Y; where Y represents the amount you overpaid in the inefficient transaction. Granted, Y may be 0, but you never get an opportunity to learn the value of Y by having it included in the price; adding to the potential inefficiency and a plausible explanation for the genesis of the whole tipping phenomenon in the first place.

 

And if my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon.

 

Service worthy of a tip and unworthy of a tip is subjective. Perhaps gratuities were pre-determined when you bought that silk carpet in Istanbul.

 

It matters little what people say here. Those who want to tip will and those looking for escape hatches will find reasons not to.

 

I would suggest what my mother used to tell me when I pondered major dilemmas such as this: DO THE RIGHT THING.

 

All of a sudden, everything is clear.:)

 

Smooth sailing...

[sassy~one]

From an economic analysis point of view, you're getting "some of the world's best customer service" because it's included in the price. The article notes that the most efficient economic transaction results from the delivery of the service with a tip after the service is delivered. You may have paid X and could have recieved the exact same "best customer service" by paying X-Y; where Y represents the amount you overpaid in the inefficient transaction. Granted, Y may be 0, but you never get an opportunity to learn the value of Y by having it included in the price; adding to the potential inefficiency and a plausible explanation for the genesis of the whole tipping phenomenon in the first place.

 

Perfect! NOW i understand.;)

[delgados129]

And if my grandmother had wheels she would be a wagon.

 

Service worthy of a tip and unworthy of a tip is subjective. Perhaps gratuities were pre-determined when you bought that silk carpet in Istanbul.

 

It matters little what people say here. Those who want to tip will and those looking for escape hatches will find reasons not to.

 

I would suggest what my mother used to tell me when I pondered major dilemmas such as this: DO THE RIGHT THING.

 

All of a sudden, everything is clear.:)

 

Smooth sailing...

 

Your mother's counsel and wisdom is being re-confirmed when looked at through both the lenses of economics and science.

 

From 'Generous players: game theory explores the Golden Rule's place in biology':

 

...Somehow, the altruistic behaviors observed in the wild must benefit the giver as well as the receiver. However, pinpointing how this works in animal populations is a huge challenge. In most cases, it's impossible to measure precisely how an animal's cooperative behavior affects its chances for survival and reproduction.

 

Now, theoretical research is starting to fill in the picture of how cooperation may survive natural selection. Some of the most illuminating ideas are coming from game theory, the field of mathematics that studies strategic behavior in competitive situations. ...

[Globaliser]

The article notes that the most efficient economic transaction results from the delivery of the service with a tip after the service is delivered.

Within societies in which tipping is the social norm.

[delgados129]

Within societies in which tipping is the social norm.

 

You're probably referring to Japan. From the New York Times: Where to Get the World’s Best Service:

 

...In Japan and Thailand, tipping is rare [though the article notes Thailand's standard tip of 3% in the graphic...a bit confusing], but the service is regarded as excellent. The most tip-friendly countries — the United States and Canada — also received above-average marks for service...

 

...All of this brings us to the Tipping Curve. If servers expect a generous gratuity, there is a strong economic incentive for them to do superior work. And if they expect nothing at all, good service is taken completely out of the economic context and becomes a matter of custom. But when countries try to split the difference or if they introduce confusing rules into the system, their servers are more likely to leave customers dissatisfied...

 

This has been studied as well. From 'National Personality and Tipping Customs':

 

Japan has emerged as an outlier in other research on the prevalence of tipping (Lynn, 1994; Lynn, et al, 1993), so its status as an outlier in this study is probably not due to problems with the study’s measurement of the independent variables. Apparently, some factor not included in the regression models of this or previous research reduces the number of tipped professions in Japan. Lynn (1994; Lynn, et al, 1993) suggests that this unmodeled factor may be the extreme emphasis the Japanese place on repaying favors and debts. “The need to repay favors and debts is so strong in Japan that the Japanese try to avoid becoming enmeshed in the complications of reciprocation with strangers (Benedict, 1946). Tipping entails just such complications… (Lynn, 1994, pg.138).”

 

BTW, the site 'Tipping Expert' is a good source for scholarly research on the whole topic.

[Typhoon1]

Exceptional service deserves to be rewarded with an extra tip.

[michmike]

this conversation (and MANY others) only goes to reinforce my contention that they should call it what it is... a SERVICE charge.... and not permit it to be removed. If the service you received was that awful, then don't book again with that particular line. I still don't get the folks who spend $3k plus for a week (for 2 counting airfare, hotels and incidentals) and then want to quibble about $168 (2X7X$12) so that the staff make a decent income.

 

Sales tax isn't optional... hotel "resort fees" aren't....I can't reduce my property tax payments because I don't think my road got plowed as often as it should...

 

Make the darn thing mandatory.... no exceptions .. and then the cheapskates can either ante up or stay home.

[Wakepatrol]

this conversation (and MANY others) only goes to reinforce my contention that they should call it what it is... a SERVICE charge.... and not permit it to be removed. If the service you received was that awful, then don't book again with that particular line. I still don't get the folks who spend $3k plus for a week (for 2 counting airfare, hotels and incidentals) and then want to quibble about $168 (2X7X$12) so that the staff make a decent income.

 

Sales tax isn't optional... hotel "resort fees" aren't....I can't reduce my property tax payments because I don't think my road got plowed as often as it should...

 

Make the darn thing mandatory.... no exceptions .. and then the cheapskates can either ante up or stay home.

 

Exactly- having this language "It Can Be Adjusted" is an escape hatch for every cheapskate on the ship. Real simple,make them sign a document before boarding. You're paying $12 a day service charge,hotel charge,tip whatever you want to call it. Don't want to pay don't board the ship easy peasy.

[Bluwater7]

Exactly- having this language "It Can Be Adjusted" is an escape hatch for every cheapskate on the ship. Real simple,make them sign a document before boarding. You're paying $12 a day service charge,hotel charge,tip whatever you want to call it. Don't want to pay don't board the ship easy peasy.

 

Agree agree agree - but you will never get everyone to buy in on this ... if you can't afford the service charge, tip, hotel charge - then stay home.