Canceling gratuity

[jtl513]

Only reported what was in the newspaper today & quoted from "The "History of tipping from sixteenth century England to the United States in 1910" Ofer H. Azar, Dept. of Economics, Northwestern University..

Well, most other sources disagree. Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

 

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word tip originated as a slang term, and its etymology is unclear. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the meaning to "give a small present of money to" began in c.1600, and the meaning "give a gratuity to" is first attested in 1706.[3] The noun in this sense is from 1755. The term in the sense of "to give a gratuity" first appeared in the 18th century. It derived from an earlier sense of tip, meaning "to give; to hand, pass", which originated in the rogues' cant in the 17th century. This sense may have derived from the 16th-century tip, meaning "to strike or hit smartly but lightly" (which may have derived from the Low German tippen, "to tap"), but this derivation is "very uncertain".[4]

The practice of tipping began in Tudor England.[5]"By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host’s servants. Soon after, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments."[5]

The article goes on to describe tipping practices in various regions of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_%28gratuity%29

 

Phrases like "to insure promptness" and "port out starboard home" are backronyms, made up after-the-fact to fit existing usage of words.

 

But anyway, this thread is really talking about service charges, not voluntary gifts, aka tips. :)

[Linda&Vern]

I'm curious and ask this question knowing that most who oppose the HSC will not respond ... but I'll ask anyway. When staying at a land-based hotel and there is a "hotel service charge" or "resort fee" or similar worded "fee" added to your hotel bill - do you go to the check-in desk and demand this fee be removed from your bill? If so, do they remove it? What if you dine out at a restaurant that has a quote on their menu "18% gratuity automatically added to parties of 8 or more." Do you request from the manager to remove that auto tip? If so, do they remove it?

 

I'm seriously curious.

[serendipity1499]

Well, most other sources disagree. Here's what Wikipedia has to say:

 

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word tip originated as a slang term, and its etymology is unclear. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the meaning to "give a small present of money to" began in c.1600, and the meaning "give a gratuity to" is first attested in 1706.[3] The noun in this sense is from 1755. The term in the sense of "to give a gratuity" first appeared in the 18th century. It derived from an earlier sense of tip, meaning "to give; to hand, pass", which originated in the rogues' cant in the 17th century. This sense may have derived from the 16th-century tip, meaning "to strike or hit smartly but lightly" (which may have derived from the Low German tippen, "to tap"), but this derivation is "very uncertain".[4]

The practice of tipping began in Tudor England.[5]"By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host’s servants. Soon after, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments."[5]

The article goes on to describe tipping practices in various regions of the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_%28gratuity%29

 

Phrases like "to insure promptness" and "port out starboard home" are backronyms, made up after-the-fact to fit existing usage of words.

 

But anyway, this thread is really talking about service charges, not voluntary gifts, aka tips. :)

 

Not doubting what Wikipedia has to say, but it may or may not be correct..You realize that wikipedia is not always correct, since anyone can write in it..But your quote also shows that tipping started in the c1600..

I quoted an article taken from this journal which also may or may not be correct...Check it out on Amazon..

 

The history of tipping-from sixteenth-century England to United States in the 1910s [An article from: Journal of Socio-Economics]

 [Digital] [/size][/b]

 

[size=3]O.H. Azar[/size][size=3] (Author) [/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size=3]Imagine there are many theories about tipping.. I'm tending to believe this one more than Wikipedia only because it goes into great detail, & is being taught in Economics classes, but it could be totally mistaken too.. LOL[/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size=3]Betty[/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[1160451]

Once again, the HSC is NOT a tip, it is a CHARGE for services. Would you expect that you could walk into a hotel in London and decide for yourself to pay 75% of the room rate charge, or 75% of the meal charge in a restaurant because you thought it was "too much"?

 

An establishment may agree to reduce their charges if you convince them their product was unsatisfactory, but if it was satisfactory then you are simply lying and cheating by asking them reduce it.

 

If you don't want to pay what is being charged, then go to a cheaper cruise line! :mad:

 

Sorry, IF that was true it would have to be TEP, because you are not insuring anything.

 

Sorry if I upset you, I was trying to explain my mindset based out of the UK.

If it is a charge I agree 100% with you we should pay, but if I dare suggest and risk more of your anger, that most people I know refer to it as adding the "tips".

The discussion has certainly made me reconsider so maybe a little smile from you ? .......:)

 

Wow those Romans and Brits in the 16th century started something, I bet they all dressed for Dinner as well.........

[richarduk]

Nobody ever seems to ask the direct question. How much does, for example, a HAL room service or room steward get paid? There's no state secrets here so why can't one of the many HAL employees that are said to frequent this site, just say?

 

Salaries are generally well known and transparent. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to simply provide some truthful detail.

 

If there's nothing to hide, there's no issue.

 

I'd be genuinely interested, as it could put a different slant on some people's view points.

[fokeltje]

If every cruise line would include the service charge in their fares, this thread would not exist. Fact is, that people in Europe see the charge as a tip, something you give for outstanding service. In the US a service charge is an item on your restaurant check, you have to pay it. In Europe, that charge is included in the final amount you have to pay, and that leaves you free to tip or not to tip.

This "cultural" difference will always leave room for discussion. This discussion is easily ended by including the charges in the cruise fare. A lot of cruise lines are already doing this. It makes the fares more transparent if every line joins in.

[Wakepatrol]

Nobody ever seems to ask the direct question. How much does, for example, a HAL room service or room steward get paid? There's no state secrets here so why can't one of the many HAL employees that are said to frequent this site, just say?

 

Salaries are generally well known and transparent. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to simply provide some truthful detail.

 

If there's nothing to hide, there's no issue.

 

I'd be genuinely interested, as it could put a different slant on some people's view points.

 

Why does it matter? Why is it anyone's business?

[ScriptOhio]

Nobody ever seems to ask the direct question. How much does, for example, a HAL room service or room steward get paid? There's no state secrets here so why can't one of the many HAL employees that are said to frequent this site, just say?

 

Salaries are generally well known and transparent. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to simply provide some truthful detail.

 

If there's nothing to hide, there's no issue.

 

I'd be genuinely interested, as it could put a different slant on some people's view points.

 

Why does it matter? Why is it anyone's business?

 

I believe it is a reliant question in context of the overall discussion about tips in the thread. Some people (like below) are claiming that the employees need the tips to "survive". Verification that the tips are an integral part of the employees salary is pertinent to the issue everyone is discussing here.

 

Please don't do this. MANY people from Indonesia and Philippines NEED this money for them/their families to survive. They ALL - the room and dining room stewards you SEE and some you can't/don't see - Are WONDERFUL -spectacularly wonderful.

Thank you. ;)

[kazu]

I believe it is a reliant question in context of the overall discussion about tips in the thread. Some people (like below) are claiming that the employees need the tips to "survive". Verification that the tips are an integral part of the employees salary is pertinent to the issue everyone is discussing here.

 

It is a hotel service charge for all the services you receive. Personally, what the crew makes is none of my business. I don't ask what a concierge makes in a hotel but I tip them for good service. I don't ask what a bar tender, waitress, etc makes and tip.

 

The way I see it (and it's just my opinion) when you signed up for the cruise you KNEW there was hsc, it's part of the deal. Whether you choose to tip extra is optional - but the hsc should remain in place;)

[sail7seas]

I will never understand the utter fascination about what a cruise ship steward earns and there is long history of this repeated interest.

 

Who cares? Not my business.

IMO

 

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

Just returned from a two week alaska on Statendam. Absolutely and completely removed the daily hotel charge that the ship posted to our account for each of us. Have people forgotten what tipping is for? To me it has always represented appreciation for service received over and above what is normally expected. The cruise line has made this charge mandatory so that they can pass their obligation to pay their employees what they feel is reasonable. I will not be bullying into paying something that the cruise line should buck up. And please please do not sympathize with the cruise line....it is a billion dollar profitable industry - just look up the stats. They would have us all believe that they are operating on a shoe string.

If a staff member provides exceptional service I will tip otherwise I am paying up front what the cruise is worth. The other note I would like to make here is that I have been cruising for 14 years and in the beginning (when tipping was voluntary) you would always get the sob stories from the staff about how far away from home they are, how they miss their families, how little they have and on and on and on. Funny how all these sad faces and stories disappeared when you watched the same staff getting off the ship in various ports with big smiling faces carrying their expensive cell phones, computers, wearing their designer watches, hats and clothing (often much better dressed than we were). Did we feel duped? You Bet! Remember they are living on the ship. They are getting their room and board. They are making multiple times the income they would be making if they were at home. They end their contracts and return home with more money than most of their fellow countrymen will see in their lifetime. That is why so many of them come to work for the cruise lines! It is not them that I feel sorry for. It is the uninformed, uneducated passengers who get suckered in.

 

Wow. You have been doing this for 14 years and can sleep soundly (on the cruise ship and off) with a clear conscience about it? And you seem proud of your actions??:confused: Personally, I am horrified at your selfish and uncharitable attitude towards others. I feel sorry for you.

[rafinmd]

Just returned from a two week alaska on Statendam. Absolutely and completely removed the daily hotel charge that the ship posted to our account for each of us. Have people forgotten what tipping is for? To me it has always represented appreciation for service received over and above what is normally expected. The cruise line has made this charge mandatory so that they can pass their obligation to pay their employees what they feel is reasonable. I will not be bullying into paying something that the cruise line should buck up. And please please do not sympathize with the cruise line....it is a billion dollar profitable industry - just look up the stats. They would have us all believe that they are operating on a shoe string.

If a staff member provides exceptional service I will tip otherwise I am paying up front what the cruise is worth. The other note I would like to make here is that I have been cruising for 14 years and in the beginning (when tipping was voluntary) you would always get the sob stories from the staff about how far away from home they are, how they miss their families, how little they have and on and on and on. Funny how all these sad faces and stories disappeared when you watched the same staff getting off the ship in various ports with big smiling faces carrying their expensive cell phones, computers, wearing their designer watches, hats and clothing (often much better dressed than we were). Did we feel duped? You Bet! Remember they are living on the ship. They are getting their room and board. They are making multiple times the income they would be making if they were at home. They end their contracts and return home with more money than most of their fellow countrymen will see in their lifetime. That is why so many of them come to work for the cruise lines! It is not them that I feel sorry for. It is the uninformed, uneducated passengers who get suckered in.

 

Did you join Cruise Critic just to say this? Amazing!

 

Roy

[cruz chic]

Nobody ever seems to ask the direct question. How much does, for example, a HAL room service or room steward get paid? There's no state secrets here so why can't one of the many HAL employees that are said to frequent this site, just say?

 

Salaries are generally well known and transparent. It will be interesting to see if anyone is prepared to simply provide some truthful detail.

 

If there's nothing to hide, there's no issue.

 

I'd be genuinely interested, as it could put a different slant on some people's view points.

 

If you found out it was $500 or a $1000 would that make a difference? Whether they need it to survive or not is immaterial. It's part of the charge for the cruise and Hal should make it not removable. Taking the hsc off and paying them $10 for all their hard work is not acceptable. I remember a former friend removing the hsc for a 26 day cruise. Then he ended up giving the MDR half the amount for the 2 of them that I did:rolleyes:. The difference was that I left my hsc in place and tipped over and above. What a cheapskate.

[rafinmd]

While I would like the HSC to be included with the fare, that will not be possible as long as HAL is competing on price with lines where it is separate.

 

In the absence of that, think it should be treated the same way as the port fees.

 

Roy

[Irish Eyes Are Sailing]

While I would like the HSC to be included with the fare, that will not be possible as long as HAL is competing on price with lines where it is separate.

 

In the absence of that, think it should be treated the same way as the port fees.

 

Roy

 

Agreed. Treat the HSC like port fees - a nonnegotiable fee. Stop the cheapskates in their tracks. If they don't pay it, they don't cruise.

 

HAL (and all cruise lines) needs to quit making it a "game" or a "scheme" that those that simply don't want to pay can play, or try to figure out how/what excuse they can use to remove the fee......then they boast about it afterwards, like they really accomplished something. Just like finding something really great "on sale". IMHO, they need to pay it or not step on the ship.

[arewethereyet]

Agreed. Treat the HSC like port fees - a nonnegotiable fee. Stop the cheapskates in their tracks. If they don't pay it, they don't cruise.

 

HAL (and all cruise lines) needs to quit making it a "game" or a "scheme" that those that simply don't want to pay can play, or try to figure out how/what excuse they can use to remove the fee......then they boast about it afterwards, like they really accomplished something. Just like finding something really great "on sale". IMHO, they need to pay it or not step on the ship.

arewethereyet endorses this post. :)

[Wakepatrol]

I believe it is a reliant question in context of the overall discussion about tips in the thread. Some people (like below) are claiming that the employees need the tips to "survive". Verification that the tips are an integral part of the employees salary is pertinent to the issue everyone is discussing here.

 

The guy I see smiling in the Lido at breakfast, I see 12 hours later smiling in the dining room. Yes they need the tips to keep their fleet of Bentleys and polo ponies in pristine shape:rolleyes:

[Wakepatrol]

Agreed. Treat the HSC like port fees - a nonnegotiable fee. Stop the cheapskates in their tracks. If they don't pay it, they don't cruise.

 

HAL (and all cruise lines) needs to quit making it a "game" or a "scheme" that those that simply don't want to pay can play, or try to figure out how/what excuse they can use to remove the fee......then they boast about it afterwards, like they really accomplished something. Just like finding something really great "on sale". IMHO, they need to pay it or not step on the ship.

 

People are always whining about the language in the cruise documents.

 

Hey Hal hire a lawyer and bash out a quick

"No Tip, No Set Foot On The Ship"

 

Whoever dreamed up the ability to have it removed should be fired!

[Randyk47]

While I would like the HSC to be included with the fare, that will not be possible as long as HAL is competing on price with lines where it is separate.

 

In the absence of that, think it should be treated the same way as the port fees.

 

Roy

 

Agreed. Treat the HSC like port fees - a nonnegotiable fee. Stop the cheapskates in their tracks. If they don't pay it, they don't cruise.

 

HAL (and all cruise lines) needs to quit making it a "game" or a "scheme" that those that simply don't want to pay can play, or try to figure out how/what excuse they can use to remove the fee......then they boast about it afterwards, like they really accomplished something. Just like finding something really great "on sale". IMHO, they need to pay it or not step on the ship.

 

Works for me. :)

[serendipity1499]

People are always whining about the language in the cruise documents.

 

Hey Hal hire a lawyer and bash out a quick

"No Tip, No Set Foot On The Ship":):):):):)

 

Whoever dreamed up the ability to have it removed should be fired!

 

Love it!!!!

[sail7seas]

One more vote here in agreement.

Stop permitting people to remove HSC without absolutely firmly established, well recognized good reason. It the reasons are so extreme to remove HSC, the cruise line should be refunding/giving OBC to the guest for the poor experience they encountered.

 

If you can't afford the cost of crusing, fine. Understandable. What is not understandable is to not save up a bit longer until you can afford to pay what is expected and made known in advance.

[sapper1]

Just returned from a two week alaska on Statendam. Absolutely and completely removed the daily hotel charge that the ship posted to our account for each of us. Have people forgotten what tipping is for? To me it has always represented appreciation for service received over and above what is normally expected. The cruise line has made this charge mandatory so that they can pass their obligation to pay their employees what they feel is reasonable. I will not be bullying into paying something that the cruise line should buck up. And please please do not sympathize with the cruise line....it is a billion dollar profitable industry - just look up the stats. They would have us all believe that they are operating on a shoe string.

If a staff member provides exceptional service I will tip otherwise I am paying up front what the cruise is worth. The other note I would like to make here is that I have been cruising for 14 years and in the beginning (when tipping was voluntary) you would always get the sob stories from the staff about how far away from home they are, how they miss their families, how little they have and on and on and on. Funny how all these sad faces and stories disappeared when you watched the same staff getting off the ship in various ports with big smiling faces carrying their expensive cell phones, computers, wearing their designer watches, hats and clothing (often much better dressed than we were). Did we feel duped? You Bet! Remember they are living on the ship. They are getting their room and board. They are making multiple times the income they would be making if they were at home. They end their contracts and return home with more money than most of their fellow countrymen will see in their lifetime. That is why so many of them come to work for the cruise lines! It is not them that I feel sorry for. It is the uninformed, uneducated passengers who get suckered in.

 

The milk of human kindness personified. :rolleyes:

[LH25]

The cruise line has made this charge mandatory so that they can pass their obligation to pay their employees what they feel is reasonable. I will not be bullying into paying something that the cruise line should buck up.

 

I just don't get this argument. We as passengers are going to pay this one way or another, the cruise lines aren't going to. I think it should part of the fare personally, but bottom line is that we passengers will end up paying for it.

 

Funny how all these sad faces and stories disappeared when you watched the same staff getting off the ship in various ports with big smiling faces carrying their expensive cell phones, computers, wearing their designer watches, hats and clothing (often much better dressed than we were). Did we feel duped? You Bet! Remember they are living on the ship. They are getting their room and board. They are making multiple times the income they would be making if they were at home.

 

And they work their butts off. I don't begrudge them nice things. They are away from their families and having to deal with the public. I expect to be paid for what I do, and it's really not our customers job to look at how I spend what I make.

[LH25]

I will never understand the utter fascination about what a cruise ship steward earns and there is long history of this repeated interest.

 

Who cares? Not my business.

IMO

 

 

I agree. What I need to decide is if I think the experience I get for the money I pay is worth it. Who gets what isn't really part of that equation, esp. when the underlying thought is that they are overpaid.

 

I wouldn't do what they do, not only do they work hard, but they have to deal with us all...:D

[richarduk]

Why does it matter? Why is it anyone's business?

 

I'm not saying it's anyone's business. I only asked if someone who knows wishes to advise a wage.