Ten Years From Now...... HAL

[chrispb]

I don't see the segregation as a "class" issue. People pay according to both their means and their needs at that time. What is important to some is not to others.

 

We've all seen millionaires with rags on their back haven't we? :cool:

[UPNYGuy]

Havens and the like are a step backward to Class separations on ships.

I'm not saying whether that is good or bad but making an observation.

 

Perhaps it's okay for people who pay so much more to get much more?

Those who pay for first class are financing those in coach.

A high level manager for AA once said to me he/she wasn't much concerned if they had empty seats in coach if first class was full. I grant that was a few years ago but the point is the same.

 

Some Class separation is likely returning to cruise ships. IMO

 

 

I welcome it. When I pay what I do for a suite, I want to be in a secluded enclave with private amenities, not just have access to a private lounge. And the fact that it IS exclusive is a huge perk.

 

And yes, those that *pay* to fly in F DO finance those those that fly in coach. Ever pay to fly F internationally?

 

 

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Edited August 16, 2014 by UPNYGuy

[navybankerteacher]

I don't see the segregation as a "class" issue. People pay according to both their means and their needs at that time. What is important to some is not to others.

 

We've all seen millionaires with rags on their back haven't we? :cool:

 

The topic has not been social class, rather class of travel - which is precisely segregation of accommodations and facilities amounts to.

[cruisemom42]

It's not that I "resent" the perks, per se. What irks me is that all of these special retreats, cabanas, havens, specialty restaurants, what-have-you take away floor space that used to be available to all.

 

I prefer the old model of cruising -- you paid for a cabin according to your need/budget -- inside to suite -- but every other facility on board ship was available to all at little or no extra cost.

 

More and more I am realizing that the future of mass-market cruising is not for me. :cool: I hope that the niche lines I like continue to function in the same way they currently do, else I'll be doing little cruising in a few years if this "future" comes to pass.

[sail7seas]

It's not that I "resent" the perks, per se. What irks me is that all of these special retreats, cabanas, havens, specialty restaurants, what-have-you take away floor space that used to be available to all.

 

I prefer the old model of cruising -- you paid for a cabin according to your need/budget -- inside to suite -- but every other facility on board ship was available to all at little or no extra cost.

 

More and more I am realizing that the future of mass-market cruising is not for me. :cool: I hope that the niche lines I like continue to function in the same way they currently do, else I'll be doing little cruising in a few years if this "future" comes to pass.

 

 

 

Actually, it really doesn't always take away floor space that used to be available to all. There used to be far less 'floor space'. The additional floor space that has been added has specifically been designed to accommodate the new direction these cruise lines are 'hinting' at going toward. The additional pool, lounge, butler space etc was built with a purpose and that space likely would not exist at all if not added for that purpose. Ships keep getting larger and the added size adds more features.

 

[cruisemom42]

Actually, it really doesn't always take away floor space that used to be available to all. There used to be far less 'floor space'. The additional floor space that has been added has specifically been designed to accommodate the new direction these cruise lines are 'hinting' at going toward. The additional pool, lounge, butler space etc was built with a purpose and that space likely would not exist at all if not added for that purpose. Ships keep getting larger and the added size adds more features.

 

 

That may be true in the case of new ships, but there are plenty of examples of lines taking space that used to be open to all and creating a new for-pay restaurant, or creating an "adult-only" pool area with cabanas that used to be accessible to all (Princess has done this, possibly Celebrity). Cabins have been retro-fitted on some lines, decreasing deck space and sometimes eliminating a pool or hot tubs in the process...

[Fouremco]

It's not that I "resent" the perks, per se. What irks me is that all of these special retreats, cabanas, havens, specialty restaurants, what-have-you take away floor space that used to be available to all.

 

I prefer the old model of cruising -- you paid for a cabin according to your need/budget -- inside to suite -- but every other facility on board ship was available to all at little or no extra cost.

 

More and more I am realizing that the future of mass-market cruising is not for me. :cool: I hope that the niche lines I like continue to function in the same way they currently do, else I'll be doing little cruising in a few years if this "future" comes to pass.

 

Actually, it really doesn't always take away floor space that used to be available to all. There used to be far less 'floor space'. The additional floor space that has been added has specifically been designed to accommodate the new direction these cruise lines are 'hinting' at going toward. The additional pool, lounge, butler space etc was built with a purpose and that space likely would not exist at all if not added for that purpose. Ships keep getting larger and the added size adds more features.

When new ships are built with the extra space and facilities that you mention, sail7seas, I agree that some are included specifically with suite or other specific guests in mind and it would be silly to quibble. So if a future larger ship has room for a separate pool for suite guests alone, I have no issue. In the mean time, however, as cruisemom42 points out, new benefits for these passengers often come at a cost to other passengers when added an existing ship. So a separate pool on a new ship is fine, but I would certainly hope that HAL would never consider restricting access to any pool on an existing ship.

[navybankerteacher]

When new ships are built with the extra space and facilities that you mention, sail7seas, I agree that some are included specifically with suite or other specific guests in mind and it would be silly to quibble. So if a future larger ship has room for a separate pool for suite guests alone, I have no issue. In the mean time, however, as cruisemom42 points out, new benefits for these passengers often come at a cost to other passengers when added an existing ship. So a separate pool on a new ship is fine, but I would certainly hope that HAL would never consider restricting access to any pool on an existing ship.

 

Seconded- when designed into new builds, restricted "first class" spaces take nothing from the bulk of the cruisers; but modifications of existing ships to achieve exclusive access areas certainly does. HAL's creation of their Lanai cabins certainly removed portions of the promenade deck from general use - as just one example.

[sail7seas]

When new ships are built with the extra space and facilities that you mention, sail7seas, I agree that some are included specifically with suite or other specific guests in mind and it would be silly to quibble. So if a future larger ship has room for a separate pool for suite guests alone, I have no issue. In the mean time, however, as cruisemom42 points out, new benefits for these passengers often come at a cost to other passengers when added an existing ship. So a separate pool on a new ship is fine, but I would certainly hope that HAL would never consider restricting access to any pool on an existing ship.

 

I fully agree and cannot imagine HAL restricting access to any pool on HAL's their existing ships. It isn't practical and while cabanas may have take space on some of the ships, they are available to anyone who wishes to rent one. Pools have to be for all unless as you mention they have been planned specifically for one group of guests as on some other cruise lines.

 

The little we know about Pinnacle ship gives us no clue if HAL is planning such separate spaces but I would think it less rather than more likely.

 

It is true the lanai cabins gave something to some while taking away from others.

On the other hand, Neptune Lounge took nothing from anyone except HAL. They used what had been inside cabins to create Neptune Lounges on ships that came from Fincantieri without them included from the start.

 

Edited August 16, 2014 by sail7seas

[kazu]

I fully agree and cannot imagine HAL restricting access to any pool on HAL's their existing ships. It isn't practical and while cabanas may have take space on some of the ships, they are available to anyone who wishes to rent one. Pools have to be for all unless as you mention they have been planned specifically for one group of guests as on some other cruise lines.

 

The little we know about Pinnacle ship gives us no clue if HAL is planning such separate spaces but I would think it less rather than more likely.

 

It is true the lanai cabins gave something to some while taking away from others.

On the other hand, Neptune Lounge took nothing from anyone except HAL. They used what had been inside cabins to create Neptune Lounges on ships that came from Fincantieri without them included from the start.

 

 

They didn't use inside cabins on the Prinsendam. I believe that lounge was probably there all along on that ship, but I am not sure. If it wasn't they gave up a larger space than a Neptune Suite to have it. When you compare it to the number of suites on that ship and the others it is far superior with more space per passenger. It is on the port side with views of the ocean, it's own verandah and of course the stained glass.

 

I would rather see a 'haven' atmosphere than the cabanas that are on the Eurodam and the N Amsterdam. Argue or not, they are obtrusive, especially on the Lido and do take up space.

 

I hope the new build (if there is one) eliminates the cabanas, and creates a special space. Whether people pay for it or not, let's leave the public space uncluttered.

[sail7seas]

Pardon me....... :o '

I keep forgetting to single out Prinsendam from the other 14 ships in the fleet when making a statement.

I will try harder to point out Prinsendam was not built by HAL and did not come from Fincantieri.

 

Thank you for pointing out the exception to all the other ships. :)

 

[Lizzie68]

Actually, it really doesn't always take away floor space that used to be available to all. There used to be far less 'floor space'. The additional floor space that has been added has specifically been designed to accommodate the new direction these cruise lines are 'hinting' at going toward. The additional pool, lounge, butler space etc was built with a purpose and that space likely would not exist at all if not added for that purpose. Ships keep getting larger and the added size adds more features.

 

 

On new ships that have been designed that way - yes. But when they carve up an existing ship the only thing accommodated is the bottom line.

[bahrain_not_dubai!]

I think the main issue in regards to looking at the future with CCL lines is that some, in my opinion, lack organisation within a corporate structure, or as is the case with HAL and Princess, it appears that they may be on course to start cannibalising each other's business, which is a torrid thing within any large corporation.

 

Unlike other corporations that hold a huge market share in one industry- GM, Ford, Swatch, etcetera, where they have various brands successfully target various markets (in the case of the watch industry Swatch is a shining example in being able to manage a plethora of brands to each target their own niches without hurting the other brands) CCL appears to lack that to a certain capacity.

 

For example, one can argue that Cunard, Princess and HAL all hold a very similar niche that is targeting a similar audience. Lets take out Cunard due to their relatively small size, and take a look at Princess as well as HAL. They both do relatively interesting itineraries as far as large lines are concerned, with ships that, in the grand scheme of things, are relatively 'traditional', and HAL seems to be positioned to build ships of around 100,000 GRT, bringing it even closer to the vast majority of Princess' Grand class fleet. To me, at least, they appear to be on a crash course, and if HAL winds up a line of 80,000-100,000 GRT ships, they may very well be start eating up into Princess' business and vice-versa.

 

It is unlikely in my opinion that we will see a vessel of the size of the S or R Class ships again, as it is simply not as economical for lines to build ships of that size anymore, unless charging relatively high prices on par with Oceania. Of course, this is also a possibility that probably fits HAL well- to be CCL's Oceania, competing in the 'luxury' category (as opposed to ultra-luxury that is Seabourn, Crystal & co), which puts them directly in competition with Azamara, Oceania and Viking Ocean- the only issue with this course of action is that this market is relatively small, with only few ships occupying it and may not be seen fit for a line of HAL's size.

 

I suppose a hybrid line between the large ships and a smaller Oceania style fleet is also possibility, but I dear-say that the market niche the HAL of old occupied is disappearing- I assume for the price of HAL 20 years ago one can be accommodated aboard Oceania or Azamara today, which is overall a more 'luxurious' product than Holland America.

[innlady1]

They didn't use inside cabins on the Prinsendam. I believe that lounge was probably there all along on that ship, but I am not sure. If it wasn't they gave up a larger space than a Neptune Suite to have it. When you compare it to the number of suites on that ship and the others it is far superior with more space per passenger. It is on the port side with views of the ocean, it's own verandah and of course the stained glass.

 

I would rather see a 'haven' atmosphere than the cabanas that are on the Eurodam and the N Amsterdam. Argue or not, they are obtrusive, especially on the Lido and do take up space.

 

I hope the new build (if there is one) eliminates the cabanas, and creates a special space. Whether people pay for it or not, let's leave the public space uncluttered.

 

I totally agree. The cabanas on the Nieuw Amsterdam and on the Noordam look like an after thought. It would be much less cluttered to have a separate space.

[Lizzie68]

We've kind of veered off from the original topic, but I guess the original topic is pretty much beat to death now.:D

[mariner]

The American middle class will be dead by then unless something changes soon. With it Canada.

 

HAL, if it's still survives, will be focused on Asia.

 

Their ships are too small for economies of scale.

 

They may not survive.

 

Forget luxury. They haven't been luxury for years.

[mariner]

One of the biggest questions is: Who will have disposable income. For a certain age, pensions have disappeared. And those people didn't plan on it. How can the cruise lines market to those people?

[kazu]

One of the biggest questions is: Who will have disposable income. For a certain age, pensions have disappeared. And those people didn't plan on it. How can the cruise lines market to those people?

huhh:confused::confused: not everyone in life failed to plan or totally relied on the corporation they worked for. There is a huge market in baby boomers.

[mariner]

Sadly, the statistics show many got short-changed by their companies and couldn't catch up. It's the next reality.

[kazu]

Sadly, the statistics show many got short-changed by their companies and couldn't catch up. It's the next reality.

 

 

Sadly I agree, but there is more to retirement planning than relying on your company. Your many is not as many as you think. A lot of baby boomers have retired or are double dipping ..... A small pocket of a region is not the world ,.....in any case, back to our regularly scheduled programme ( or thread)

[mariner]

Unless you're tied to a government, there is no double-dipping. You're out of luck. And then there is health care. No money for cruises.

[sail7seas]

Some people who had lots of their retirement in the stock market lost it all when the economy blew up.

Some were smart/lucky and stayed in the market and recouped their losses (plus a lot in many cases) but many cut and ran and never can catch up on the huge pile they lost. It's sad as they spent a lifetime accumulating those funds.

[mariner]

Plain and simple: Are you cruising today?

[clogaltocruise]

Yes

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Plain and simple: Are you cruising today?

 

As long as we could..