Gratutities

[Beanb41]

Actually, this isn't the reason. There is someone here on CC who has worked in the cruise industry for decades, much of it in managerial roles. He has given us many insights into the cruising business.

 

Based on his insider knowledge, we have learned that the only reason that some cruise lines have now included the gratuities in the base fare for cruises in Australia (and the UK) is quite simple - too many guests were stiffing the crew, most likely because they didn't agree with the gratuity policies on those ships, and would "stick it" to them in order to make a point. The crew moral suffered tremendously as the number of people who refused to give tips was substantial and the crew saw a significant drop in their income when sailing those markets. To prevent angry staff, the cruise lines HAD to instate a modified cruise fare in which guests would no longer have the option of removing those tips. Celebrity does this on their ships only when they are sailing those areas. The normal gratuity policies are reinstated as soon as the ships are deployed to other areas when the cruising season ends there. What is ironic is that these misguided guests seem to think that they are punishing the cruise line by refusing to pay the gratuities. In reality, the hard working staff who is serving them every day is who is being punished, not th "greedy" corporations.

 

So, you Aussies and Brits did it to yourselves. You forced the cruise lines to increase your fares so the crew would no longer be stiffed. You lost your bargaining power because now, for you, you have no option to remove tips if service is actually bad. Well done!

 

I am not convinced that with the change of payment structure staff will in any way be penalised

 

 

It is rather convenient to ignore what actually happens when it supports your beliefs, isn't it? In reality, as has been documented on these tipping threads in the past, the staff is indeed notified of who has removed their gratuities. Passengers have even seen these notifications posted on message boards when taking tours of the inner workings of the ships.

 

The staff won't be surely, and they don't need to. All they have to do is provide a bit less care with your room cleaning, be a bit slower with your food delivery at meals, or ignore you when you appear to need some assistance. It would appear entirely normal, just as if they were providing the poor service you so expect - which your removal of their gratuities has guaranteed. :rolleyes:

 

I have seen all sorts of comments made by so called experts "who have seen this" or "been told that" about what happens on cruise ships and when I finally got on board and asked questions myself only to be told something completely different.

 

My aim is not to put an argument up for or against any particular issue and will continue to have my beliefs until someone can produce suitable evidence in favour of their "Factual argument".

[woodyren]

Actually, this isn't the reason. There is someone here on CC who has worked in the cruise industry for decades, much of it in managerial roles. He has given us many insights into the cruising business.

 

Based on his insider knowledge, we have learned that the only reason that some cruise lines have now included the gratuities in the base fare for cruises in Australia (and the UK) is quite simple - too many guests were stiffing the crew, most likely because they didn't agree with the gratuity policies on those ships, and would "stick it" to them in order to make a point. The crew moral suffered tremendously as the number of people who refused to give tips was substantial and the crew saw a significant drop in their income when sailing those markets. To prevent angry staff, the cruise lines HAD to instate a modified cruise fare in which guests would no longer have the option of removing those tips. Celebrity does this on their ships only when they are sailing those areas.

The normal gratuity policies are reinstated as soon as the ships are deployed to other areas when the cruising season ends there. What is ironic is that these misguided guests seem to think that they are punishing the cruise line by refusing to pay the gratuities. In reality, the hard working staff who is serving them every day is who is being punished, not th "greedy" corporations.

 

 

So, you Aussies and Brits did it to yourselves. You forced the cruise lines to increase your fares so the crew would no longer be stiffed. You lost your bargaining power because now, for you, you have no option to remove tips if service is actually bad. Well done!

 

 

 

 

It is rather convenient to ignore what actually happens when it supports your beliefs, isn't it? In reality, as has been documented on these tipping threads in the past, the staff is indeed notified of who has removed their gratuities. Passengers have even seen these notifications posted on message boards when taking tours of the inner workings of the ships.

 

The staff won't be surely, and they don't need to. All they have to do is provide a bit less care with your room cleaning, be a bit slower with your food delivery at meals, or ignore you when you appear to need some assistance. It would appear entirely normal, just as if they were providing the poor service you so expect - which your removal of their gratuities has guaranteed. :rolleyes:

 

Rubbish. Celebrity DOES not include the tips in the cruise fare when sailing from Australia. While P&O and a few others may do X and RCL certainly do not. So whoever this cruise line employee is has led you up the garden path on this one.

 

As an Aussie who ALWAYS leaves the auto tips on and who has cruised a few times on both RCL and X out of Australia I have found the staff morale and service to be just as good as that on cruises out of the USA and Europe.

 

The Aussie cruises have had an extremely high percentage of local passengers which blows a large hole in your argument about them removing the auto grats.

 

Any other unsubstantiated generalisations you would like throw out there?

 

My belief is that the lines who show the full costs in the fare did so to fit in with the local custom (and law if the company is Aussie based) of full price disclosure.

 

I have no problem either way as I can do the maths myself.

 

What we find less of locally though is people throwing money around to big note themselves or in an expectation to receive service out of turn.*

 

*Last statement is not a reflection on the great many fantastic USA people we have met on board but an observation that the few who do this were almost exclusively from the USA.

Edited August 3, 2015 by woodyren

[Beanb41]

What we find less of locally though is people throwing money around to big note themselves or in an expectation to receive service out of turn.*

 

The big noting I find is more often done here on cruise critic rather than on board the ship. I find many cruise passengers who by comments should be big spenders and tippers to be just the opposite. Having paid for their cruise and in many cases leaving the auto tips in place do not put their hand in their pocket for additional tips. One only has to sit at the bar to observe this. If one has a drinks package only the seapass card is put across.

[GUT2407]

Rubbish. Celebrity DOES not include the tips in the cruise fare when sailing from Australia. While P&O and a few others may do X and RCL certainly do not. So whoever this cruise line employee is has led you up the garden path on this one.

 

As an Aussie who ALWAYS leaves the auto tips on and who has cruised a few times on both RCL and X out of Australia I have found the staff morale and service to be just as good as that on cruises out of the USA and Europe.

 

The Aussie cruises have had an extremely high percentage of local passengers which blows a large hole in your argument about them removing the auto grats.

 

Any other unsubstantiated generalisations you would like throw out there?

 

My belief is that the lines who show the full costs in the fare did so to fit in with the local custom (and law if the company is Aussie based) of full price disclosure.

 

I have no problem either way as I can do the maths myself.

 

What we find less of locally though is people throwing money around to big note themselves or in an expectation to receive service out of turn.*

 

*Last statement is not a reflection on the great many fantastic USA people we have met on board but an observation that the few who do this were almost exclusively from the USA.

 

 

Yep.

 

Yet to have bad service on a cruise in Aus.

[GUT2407]

Yep.

 

Yet to have bad service on a cruise in Aus.

 

 

Sorry I correct that had one steward who clearly didn't want to be there

[sloopsailor]

Rubbish. Celebrity DOES not include the tips in the cruise fare when sailing from Australia. While P&O and a few others may do X and RCL certainly do not. So whoever this cruise line employee is has led you up the garden path on this one.

 

As an Aussie who ALWAYS leaves the auto tips on and who has cruised a few times on both RCL and X out of Australia I have found the staff morale and service to be just as good as that on cruises out of the USA and Europe.

 

The Aussie cruises have had an extremely high percentage of local passengers which blows a large hole in your argument about them removing the auto grats.

 

Any other unsubstantiated generalisations you would like throw out there?

 

My belief is that the lines who show the full costs in the fare did so to fit in with the local custom (and law if the company is Aussie based) of full price disclosure.

 

I have no problem either way as I can do the maths myself.

 

You are allowed to believe your beliefs if you want. No one can stop you. However, I prefer to listen to actual experts in the business, not people who only have opinions. ;)

 

I am NOT one of those "don't confuse me with facts" types. I place more value on facts than on opinions, unlike some people. But, I have been known to inadvertently listen to the wrong "experts" once in a while. Or so my wife often tells me! :D

 

What we find less of locally though is people throwing money around to big note themselves or in an expectation to receive service out of turn.*

 

*Last statement is not a reflection on the great many fantastic USA people we have met on board but an observation that the few who do this were almost exclusively from the USA.

 

I happen to agree with you on this - but with the caveat that the worst offenders I have noticed are Eastern Europeans, not Americans. Some of them flash money around as if they think they are celebrities deserving of being taken care of first.

 

I also believe that giving the waiters or room attendants a tip before service is rendered to be a bribe, and offensive to the staff. It is as if the person offering the bribe thinks the staff cannot be trusted to provide good service unless they are indebted to the customer and his bribe. An "I gave you money, now you owe me" attitude.

Edited August 3, 2015 by sloopsailor

[sloopsailor]

The big noting I find is more often done here on cruise critic rather than on board the ship. I find many cruise passengers who by comments should be big spenders and tippers to be just the opposite. Having paid for their cruise and in many cases leaving the auto tips in place do not put their hand in their pocket for additional tips. One only has to sit at the bar to observe this. If one has a drinks package only the seapass card is put across.

 

Interesting that you spend your vacation time searching out the passengers who talk about giving big tips, and then watch what they actually do. How do you know what a passenger next to you has said on these boards? Why do you even pay attention to what that passenger gives in tips? Seems to be a very strange thing to do on a vacation. Myself, I much prefer to have fun, enjoy the entertainment, or conversation with friends, or enjoy the views outside. I certainly don't spend my time categorizing what each passenger gives, and then comparing it to what I have read on CruiseCritic.

 

My, what a very sad way to live! :eek:

Edited August 3, 2015 by sloopsailor

[GUT2407]

Interesting that you spend your vacation time searching out the passengers who talk about giving big tips, and then watch what they actually do. How do you know what a passenger next to you has said on these boards? Why do you even pay attention to what that passenger gives in tips? Seems to be a very strange thing to do on a vacation. Myself, I much prefer to have fun, enjoy the entertainment, or conversation with friends, or enjoy the views outside. I certainly don't spend my time categorizing what each passenger gives, and then comparing it to what I have read on CruiseCritic. My, what a sad way to live! :eek:

 

 

Well may you ask why so many here on CC worry so much about how anyone else tips.

[woodyren]

You are allowed to believe your beliefs if you want. No one can stop you. However, I prefer to listen to actual experts in the business, not people who only have opinions. ;)

 

I am NOT one of those "don't confuse me with facts" types. I place more value on facts than on opinions, unlike some people. But, I have been known to inadvertently listen to the wrong "experts" once in a while. Or so my wife often tells me! :D

 

.

 

Celebrity does NOT include gratuities as part of it's cruise fare when cruising in Australian waters. Neither does Royal Caribbean.That is a FACT not a belief regardless of what your experts have told you. I have 3 cruises booked 2 with Australian TA's and 1 with a USA TA and all have grats on top of the booking. One of them 1 I have pre paid my grats to hedge against the rising USD, another my USA TA paid for me and the 3rd I will just add to my daily account.

 

On my last 2 Rhapsody Pacific Islands cruises I hardly met anyone from the USA. In fact the overwhelming percentage were Australians to such an extent that the activities staff were asked to and did change the trivia questions so that they were not mostly USA based ones.

 

This is the norm in these waters so if what your "expert" told you is correct then the crew must be suffering badly if the tips are mostly removed. Again if this is fact why are Celebrity and Royal leaving the auto grats in place?

 

My reply was not personal but it did hit a raw nerve in your generalisation about what we Aussies do and was downright incorrect about Celebrity fare structure.

Edited August 3, 2015 by woodyren

[OzKiwiJJ]

Celebrity does NOT include gratuities as part of it's cruise fare when cruising in Australian waters. Neither does Royal Caribbean.That is a FACT not a belief regardless of what your experts have told you. I have 3 cruises booked 2 with Australian TA's and 1 with a USA TA and all have grats on top of the booking. One of them 1 I have pre paid my grats to hedge against the rising USD, another my USA TA paid for me and the 3rd I will just add to my daily account.

 

This is the norm in these waters so if what your "expert" told you is correct then the crew must be suffering badly if the tips are mostly removed. Again if this is fact why are Celebrity and Royal leaving the auto grats in place?

 

My reply was not personal but it did hit a raw nerve in your generalisation about what we Aussies do and was downright incorrect about Celebrity fare structure.

 

Hear, hear, woodyren. Don't you just love these "experts" who don't get their facts right.

 

For our last cruise, on Rhapsody in March, we prepaid the grats and gave a little more to those who deserved it.

 

For our upcoming Christmas cruise on Solstice, we have prepaid the grats.

 

Undoubtably though, there will be some people from Aus/NZ that remove their grats, and that may be from being told by a "well-meaning" friend or a TA that they can do so and ignorance as to how the staff are paid (since staff in our countries are paid a decent wage). However I've read a significant number of posts from people from the US who brag about removing the daily gratuities. Here are just a few:

 

YubaSutter from Sutter Buttes “We cancel the auto tips and personally give tips to those who provide exceptional service”

 

Immediately following was Krissica from Cincinnati, OH “Agreed. We end up tipping everyone anyway. However we feel our room steward deserves above and beyond a tip because we utilize him more, in comparison to the waiter - we go to the dining room maybe once during an entire cruise, if that.”

 

Lilm201 from MA “right when we got on the ship we cancelled prepaid gratuities (do it early so your not waiting in a big line) then at the end of the trip we just left an envelope of money in the room. however much you think they deserve”

 

Husky61 from Washington “Contrary to what some on this forum have told you, you do not have to pay the auto tip. That is your choice and not the choice of the tip bullies on this forum.”

 

Marie51 from Georgia “ I prefer to give cash tips so I went to the guest relations desk and had the automatic tips removed.”

 

Debde from New York “I've removed my tips and given cash”

 

Tommyg74 from Long Island NY “I remove auto gratuity on every trip.”

 

Warbar from Oklahoma “We will not be eating in the MDR so why would I want to tip them.” “I tip who I want, when I want, and how much I want, and will not be told by anyone who, when, or how much it should be.”

 

:eek::eek::eek:

 

Perhaps the US cruise lines should start including the gratuities in the fare, like the Aussie-based ones doe.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OzKiwiJJ

[shot2bits]

 

 

 

 

 

"I also believe that giving the waiters or room attendants a tip before service is rendered to be a bribe, and offensive to the staff. It is as if the person offering the bribe thinks the staff cannot be trusted to provide good service unless they are indebted to the customer and his bribe. An "I gave you money, now you owe me" attitude.

 

 

So does this make prepaid gratuities wrong then?

[OzKiwiJJ]

Are you serious? I might not have gone on as many cruises as a lot of people here but have done a LOT of land travel. I remember travelling around Central India a few years ago and my fellow travellers and myself took coloured pencils and books for the children which they promptly threw on the ground and then demanded money. The tour guide said the Americans throw their money around and he was trying to stop it. Same thing in East Africa last year because of the Americans.

 

I found exactly the same thing when I did a private tour in South Vietnam a few years ago. My guide was most insistent that I did not give the children money. I was allowed to buy them some cokes to share from a road-side stall as a special treat. The guide was a highly respected lecturer in tourism in South Vietnam and he said that the way Americans throw money around, as tips and gifts, was starting to cause major issues in the country.

[Pavovsky]

I found exactly the same thing when I did a private tour in South Vietnam a few years ago. My guide was most insistent that I did not give the children money. I was allowed to buy them some cokes to share from a road-side stall as a special treat. The guide was a highly respected lecturer in tourism in South Vietnam and he said that the way Americans throw money around, as tips and gifts, was starting to cause major issues in the country.

 

 

I agree and I know of one Indian venture which was suffering (and indeed may have failed) because the service staff ignored all customers except Americans as they chased tips.

 

But for cruises, everyone knows that gratuities are part of the price of the cruise even though some disagree with this.

 

I do disagree with the cruise line offering free gratuities as a perk.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OzKiwiJJ]

 

IMHO, tipping on a ship is doing the right thing when no one is perceived to be watching. Everyone knows that the gratuities for staff are the norm on a ship. The crew work incredibly long and hard for meager wages. It has nothing to do with which flag you fly. Don't tip if you don't want to. But don't pretend that it doesn't matter. Again, just my opinion and I respect you for yours.

 

With all due respect but "everyone" does not know. Particularly people from Australia and New Zealand who are cruising on those ships where tipping is not required as it is built into their fares. Please get your facts right.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OzKiwiJJ

[Sfr1959]

With all due respect but "everyone" does not know. Particularly people from Australia and New Zealand who are cruising on those ships where tipping is not required as it is built into their fares. Please get your facts right.

 

 

I agree ,

In Australia we tip for good service, not for the pleasure of someone bringing my meal to the table, serve me a drink or clean my room and make my bed. That's what we pay for in out fare !!!!

But if someone give me a great dining experience, or makes my night a enjoyable in a bar and entertaining or my room steward make the effort to give above average service and shows us personalised service,

We tip very good, because they deserve it. We have done a few cruises where we have had "crap service" and the steward know's straight away because we ask to be moved.

 

Why is it the passengers responsibility to pay the Cruise lines staff.

We pay that in our fares and we should only be obliged to tip for great

service.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[AtleeH]

It's 6 to one, half dozen to another.

 

Please note what an earlier poster said. Does it matter if the actual wage is up to reasonable standards or if the actual wage plus the gratuities is up to reasonable standard. Either way, you, the cruiser, is going to pay for it.

 

Do believe if the cruise line paid an actual wage that's up to reasonable standard and ditched the gratuities, that your fare wouldn't increase. Sure it would. But of course, the $12.95 per day gratuity would disappear.

 

In my opinion, the cruise lines who add on these auto tips are failing to pay their tipped workers a proper living wage. I agree with the poster fom New Zealand that tipping should be based on exceptional service received, not just for performing the minimum requirements of their job discription. An 18% tip for someone to take an overpriced beer from the refrigerator is ridiculous. It also amazes me that in these gratuities discussions on cruise critic so few question this policy. When I stay in a hotel I am not billed an additional gratuity fee to pay the wages of the hotel staff. And I am free to tip for excellent service as I may wish.

 

I find this auto tipping policy disrespectful to the guests, and even worse, an excuse for the cruise lines not to assume the appropriate financial responsibility for the wages of some of its staff.

 

On too many occasions I have read negative comments directed at some who question this auto tipping practice. Perhaps it is time for more cruisers to speak up and tell the cruise lines to pay their staff a proper living wage.

[AtleeH]

Again, what difference does it make? If the "living wage" is given in form of just a salary, or if the "living wage" is given in the form of a combo of wage and auto gratuities?

 

I just don't see the problem. Actually, the only problem is Celebrity allowing passengers the ability to NOT pay the added gratuities since these added gratuities are part of their "living" wage.

 

Some of you seem to have missed , or chosen to ignore a few of the main points I made in my previous post. My view is that the auto tipping policy needs to be eliminated, and the cruise lines who have chosen to adopt this policy need to assume appropriate financial responsibility for the wages of their employees. It is a matter of economic and social justice to pay employees a living wage.

 

Listing a number of cruise lines that also use the auto tipping scheme does not justify the practice. You should be aware that many of the listed lines are owned by a few large corporations. .Also as some have argued, it is not a matter of conforming to local customs or mores. The ships sail the oceans of the world and have an international clientel. When we see a practice that we may regard as unfair don't we have a moral responsibility to speak up and request that corporations become better corporate citizens?

[Iamcruzin]

For me, a tip is a buck per drink if I walk to a bar and order it myself and stand there waiting for them to make it, if part of sit down dining, then 20% on the whole bill.

 

I agree that 18% is high for drinks at Martini bar etc. But I am made well aware of the cost up front, so I deal with it and understand it as part of my cruise cost. It makes getting drink packages that much more attractive.

 

Once again I agree with you Curt. Last week my wife and I went to the Beach Hut which is a local club at a beach in the neighbor hood. Nothing fancy but they have live entertainment the beach atmoslphere so they can get away with charging the prices they do. It cost me $50 for 3 Bud lights on tap served in a plastic cup and a Blue Moon in a bottle poured into a plastic cup with a slice of orange. I put $2 in the tip bucket and called it a day. The problem with tipping percents is that the price of cocktails especially on cruise ship have become outrageous. I wasn't about to tip the usual 20% which would have been $10. I had to walk the drinks back to the table. It doesn't take anymore work to pour 4 soft drinks at $10 than 4 beers at $50. However with that said now that the drink package is included in the price with gratuity I probably will still tip a dollar or two for good service.

[jono mono]

Well said !!!

[dkjretired]

Hear, hear, woodyren. Don't you just love these "experts" who don't get their facts right.

 

For our last cruise, on Rhapsody in March, we prepaid the grats and gave a little more to those who deserved it.

 

For our upcoming Christmas cruise on Solstice, we have prepaid the grats.

 

Undoubtably though, there will be some people from Aus/NZ that remove their grats, and that may be from being told by a "well-meaning" friend or a TA that they can do so and ignorance as to how the staff are paid (since staff in our countries are paid a decent wage). However I've read a significant number of posts from people from the US who brag about removing the daily gratuities. Here are just a few:

 

YubaSutter from Sutter Buttes “We cancel the auto tips and personally give tips to those who provide exceptional service”

 

Immediately following was Krissica from Cincinnati, OH “Agreed. We end up tipping everyone anyway. However we feel our room steward deserves above and beyond a tip because we utilize him more, in comparison to the waiter - we go to the dining room maybe once during an entire cruise, if that.”

 

Lilm201 from MA “right when we got on the ship we cancelled prepaid gratuities (do it early so your not waiting in a big line) then at the end of the trip we just left an envelope of money in the room. however much you think they deserve”

 

Husky61 from Washington “Contrary to what some on this forum have told you, you do not have to pay the auto tip. That is your choice and not the choice of the tip bullies on this forum.”

 

Marie51 from Georgia “ I prefer to give cash tips so I went to the guest relations desk and had the automatic tips removed.”

 

Debde from New York “I've removed my tips and given cash”

 

Tommyg74 from Long Island NY “I remove auto gratuity on every trip.”

 

Warbar from Oklahoma “We will not be eating in the MDR so why would I want to tip them.” “I tip who I want, when I want, and how much I want, and will not be told by anyone who, when, or how much it should be.”

 

:eek::eek::eek:

 

Perhaps the US cruise lines should start including the gratuities in the fare, like the Aussie-based ones doe.

 

Couple of quick comments based on above:

 

MA Prepaid gratuities are paid prior to getting on the ship and cannot be removed. Perhaps you meant the auto gratuities once on ship

 

Husky: no one on this board said you have to pay the auto tip, as a matter of fact just the opposite has been written about so I question your comment about tip bullies.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Couple of quick comments based on above:

 

MA Prepaid gratuities are paid prior to getting on the ship and cannot be removed. Perhaps you meant the auto gratuities once on ship

 

Husky: no one on this board said you have to pay the auto tip, as a matter of fact just the opposite has been written about so I question your comment about tip bullies.

 

Don, I doubt those people will respond to your comments. Those clips were taken from other threads on this forum to illustrate the point I was making.

[dkjretired]

Am I the only one who is frankly sick and tired of tipping threads? I think the only reason why I am occasionally drawn in is to read another excuse that someone has come up with to try and justify their cheap and nasty behaviour of getting tips removed. You know why you do it...it's because you can get away with it. Saves a few dollars. You think no one notices. But it is noticed. The crew knows. You are called a "banana" by the crew. And you are right. There's nothing much they can do about it. But it's wrong. Wrong on every level. JMHO.

 

I tend to agree with you especially since they start into who gets what and how much each person gets and who is pooled or not. I don't think there's one person including myself who has knowledge of how things actually work. Half of the posts on here are conjecture, nothing more or nothing less.

[cle-guy]

So does this make prepaid gratuities wrong then?

 

I would say NO, as even though the cruise line has collected our money in advance, or daily, the crew do not receive it until after the cruise with their paychecks.

[cle-guy]

I do disagree with the cruise line offering free gratuities as a perk.

 

The staff still get tipped as per normal with free gratuities. The beauty is, there is NO way to have them removed, so staff are at least taken care of regardless. To the poster Rose who wanted corporations to step up, well here's a great example, company has set up a program that ensures guests can't rip the staff off.

[cle-guy]

With all due respect but "everyone" does not know. Particularly people from Australia and New Zealand who are cruising on those ships where tipping is not required as it is built into their fares. Please get your facts right.

 

To my knowledge, the only brands that call in Australia with all-in pricing is P&O, Azamara on occasion, and perhaps a couple of the small ship, ultra luxury brands. I very tiny, almost insignificant number of people.

 

When booking a cruise they tell you most reputable TA's make note of it, in the crusie contract its stated, in the FAQ its called out.

 

The fact that there is only a very, very tiny number of ships that its included, and every ship that sails out of Oz/NZ but for P&O has a tipping requirement should make it even more obvious. And the fact that 60% of cruisers are repeaters means that roughly 60% of those boarding ships down under know of the policy just by having cruised before.

 

One will not see what one does not want to see.