Viking Riverboat Hits Bridge, Two Crewmembers Killed

[chengkp75]

Please take a moment and a deep breath before reading this as this is a newspaper article from Hungary (in Hungarian, but we all have google translate) about the accident, if you cannot take this easily you might consider not looking:

 

http://www.blikk.hu/aktualis/kulfold/o-az-egyik-magyar-aldozata-a-tragikus-hajoszerencsetlensegnek/tc1gd95

 

Rest in peace.

 

notamermaid

 

My God....these poor men never had a chance...what a shame...how about instead of a trip refund donations are made to their families?

 

I must be getting a bad translation, as I don't see anything terrible in the article, nor do I see where they "never had a chance". I don't really see where it adds anything to what has been previously posted. Can someone help me out?

[philw1776]

I must be getting a bad translation, as I don't see anything terrible in the article, nor do I see where they "never had a chance". I don't really see where it adds anything to what has been previously posted. Can someone help me out?

 

Without translating Hungarian, I'd guess that the terrible thing is the photo of the totally crushed cabin where it's apparent that survival was extremely unlikely at best. Even at very low velocity a hundred plus tonnes of ship is going to crush any structure against the far more massive steel girder bridge.

[Hydrokitty]

I must be getting a bad translation, as I don't see anything terrible in the article, nor do I see where they "never had a chance". I don't really see where it adds anything to what has been previously posted. Can someone help me out?

 

The translation wasn't the best but one look at that photo is really all you need...I found it horrifying.

[RDVIK2016]

notamermaid, thank you for the links. I did send an inquiry to Neptun Werft for the dimensions I am curious about using contact information on their website for which you provided the address. Also I found the NDR documentary you mentioned, but did not link. I have worked in a shipyard and enjoyed watching the video of them building the Viking Longships and comparing what they showed with my experiences. My experience with German is from Bavaria so the speech of the workers in Rostock did give me some trouble.

[RDVIK2016]

I also went to that Hungarian report and found that Google Translate did not produce a great English or German translation. I'd like to get an explanation about the emergency wheelhouse retraction that is mentioned. Anybody know anything about that? How quickly would the wheelhouse actual drop if they, as I think they say, dumped hydraulic oil? If there is a very responsive emergency mode that was not activated then that would indicate that the pilot was not attentive.

[Mark_T]

If there is a very responsive emergency mode that was not activated then that would indicate that the pilot was not attentive.

 

...or that the wheelhouse was physically jammed in place, or that the retraction mechanism was locked up somehow...

 

I think we really do need to wait and let the authorities do their work rather than try to guess where the blame should go...

[chengkp75]

I also went to that Hungarian report and found that Google Translate did not produce a great English or German translation. I'd like to get an explanation about the emergency wheelhouse retraction that is mentioned. Anybody know anything about that? How quickly would the wheelhouse actual drop if they, as I think they say, dumped hydraulic oil? If there is a very responsive emergency mode that was not activated then that would indicate that the pilot was not attentive.

 

My feeling about the emergency retraction is that the hydraulics, which hold the wheelhouse up are returned to the storage tank via a flow restrictor so that the wheelhouse retracts at a comfortable speed. The emergency retraction would simply bypass the flow restrictors and allow the weight of the wheelhouse to force the hydraulic oil out of the rams as quickly as possible. Another question is whether the upper wheelhouse is retracted by hydraulics or manually. From my understanding, when the lower half of the wheelhouse retracts, there is space in the wheelhouse to stand, but when the upper level is lowered, you have to squat or sit at the consoles without windows. If the lower half had retracted, if the upper part had hit the bridge, it would have injured the crew, but they could likely have dropped down or been knocked down and survived.

[RDVIK2016]

MArk T., Of course you are correct about other those possibilities and more, but they had just made it under another bridge so the mechanical systems seem to have been operating right up to that point.

[steamboats]

I think we really do need to wait and let the authorities do their work rather than try to guess where the blame should go...

 

Actually the authorities said that the pilot house was damaged way too much to determine whether it was a mechanical or human failure.

 

steamboats

[notamermaid]

As there is no such English wikipedia site I give you the link to the German wikipedia site for the Viking longships. It is nice that someone (or several people) have made the effort to give this ship design its own page: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Longships

 

I hope google translate can give you a bit of help if you feel like reading about the technical details.

 

Towards the bottom of the article is the list of accidents of the longships:

 

Viking Aegir, ran aground on the Main river in September 2013

 

Viking Forseti, had three accidents in September 2013

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5544

 

Viking Bragi, hit a bridge on the Rhine in 2013

 

Viking Bragi, 18 June 2016 in the Main-Danube-Canal

 

Viking Tor, 19 June 2016 on the Danube

 

Viking Skadi, 19 August 2016 ran aground on the Rhine

 

Viking Freya, 11 September 2016 Main-Danube-Canal

 

not mentioned: Viking Mani, June 2016 hit by cargo ship on the Rhine

 

Note: these are only the longship incidents.

 

Note: many other companies have been involved in incidents, yet I do not know of any with a death toll since 2013. There have been injuries in those incidents among crew or passengers.

 

As mentioned before, statistics do play a part. What I have noticed is that the bridge accidents at least this year happened all at night. Does Viking sail more at night than during the day? Statistics?

 

notamermaid

Edited September 20, 2016 by notamermaid

[philw1776]

I don't buy that that is a complete list. SOMETHING clobbered the Freya's cabin before we sailed on the Freya in September 2014. There was a plywood structure. We were told that the cabin failed to lower and struck an overpass/bridge. I was too blasé' about it. I wish I'd inquired further.

Edited September 20, 2016 by philw1776

[pully8]

many accidents on the rivers which is not surprising given all the traffic. a google search brings up many, too many to link to.

 

sometimes its collisions with bridges/locks/other vessels. sometimes lock malfunctions all sorts of things. not all get much publicity of course.

 

I think we can accept accidents happen and there are risks with whatever we do.

 

loss of human life makes this 1 so tragic.

[steamboats]

Viking has 46 longships (44 running) - that´s more than any other river cruise company. So of course statistic show them more often in accidents than other river cruise lines.

 

notamermaid, there´s an ongoing thread here on a German board since 2013 which shows that it´s not just Viking being involved in accidents.

 

And yes, most river cruise ships sail during the night as they do stay in port during day ;)! But that´s not just Viking but all of them, also the German ones.

 

steamboats

[notamermaid]

philw1776,

 

I am sure the list is not complete.

 

steamboats,

 

Thank you for the link. The Forseti had a rough time in 2013 for sure. Not sure if I wanted to sail with that one if I had the opportunity. ;)

 

I put it mostly down to statistics, but there seems to be case that despite all radar, electronics etc. combining nighttime sailing and bridges creates a higher risk factor than I had thought.

 

Of, course who would want to be in port all night and on the river all day... Trying to get across Europe at 24km per hour cannot be accomplished with daytime sailing alone. :)

 

I agree, steamboats, all companies do it, they all visit the same ports on the Main and Main-Danube-Canal, don't they? With few variations, I think.

 

Hence, for example, the problems that Bamberg is facing with a great increase in tours that can get in each other's way.

 

So sad that the cause - and with it an incentive to improve safety - will likely not be found in the Viking Freya accident. I wonder if the final report will be published?

 

notamermaid

[philw1776]

Yeah, we the public will not know the Freya report unless somehow Viking decides and gets any permissions to publish it. Unfortunately word is that the investigators will not be able to tell whether or not the mechanism failed.

 

I'm an engineer. I am confident that before 10 years elapse that the technology that cars are getting as auto-nav will be applied to these ships. Some laser/radar precise detection of bridge height vs ship height over water such that the ship stops before the bridge automatically if within the danger parameters. Such systems will cost more than automobile systems because there are a thousand times more cars than ships. Of course they too can fail, be disabled by morons, whatever so although safety will improve, nothing is ever perfect.

[steamboats]

I wonder if the final report will be published?

 

I doubt that. It´s not a German culture to publish papers like this. Too much protected data!

 

steamboats

[chengkp75]

I doubt that. It´s not a German culture to publish papers like this. Too much protected data!

 

steamboats

 

And you would likely know better than I, but I believe there is jurisdictional gray areas here: accident in Germany, Swiss flagged vessel, Hungarian nationals. It may be better in the EU, but my experience is that unless a court case is brought in either Germany or Hungary, the responsibility lies with the flag state.

[FrenchRiverCruiser]

I was appalled at aleeoc's report of the disembarkation PowerPoint.... And I think the compensation offered is totally inadequate. The lock closure is outside Viking's control, but they need to take responsibility for the first five days.

 

I posted last year about Avalon's handling of a two night delay starting our cruise because of an engine repair. I scanned and attached the handouts we were given and described the handling of the problem. Obviously, the problem was less severe than this one, but perhaps aleeoc the compensation paid and these documents may be helpful to you and your fellow passengers.

 

Good luck to you, and I add my deepest condolences to the families of the two pilots and to the whole Viking family.

[JVilleGal]

I was appalled at aleeoc's report of the disembarkation PowerPoint.... And I think the compensation offered is totally inadequate. The lock closure is outside Viking's control, but they need to take responsibility for the first five days.

 

I posted last year about Avalon's handling of a two night delay starting our cruise because of an engine repair. I scanned and attached the handouts we were given and described the handling of the problem. Obviously, the problem was less severe than this one, but perhaps aleeoc the compensation paid and these documents may be helpful to you and your fellow passengers.

 

Good luck to you, and I add my deepest condolences to the families of the two pilots and to the whole Viking family.

Did you scan them here? Don't see them.

[FrenchRiverCruiser]

Sorry. Here's the link:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2217070

[steamboats]

And you would likely know better than I, but I believe there is jurisdictional gray areas here: accident in Germany, Swiss flagged vessel, Hungarian nationals. It may be better in the EU, but my experience is that unless a court case is brought in either Germany or Hungary, the responsibility lies with the flag state.

 

The German police did investigate and as soon as there are casualties involved a prosecutor has to be at the scene too. So there will be definitely a report. But as reported in the news the authorities said the pilot house is too damaged to disclose the reason of the accident.

 

BTW it´s even more complicated as marine and hotel operations are done by separate companies which can be Romanian or whatever... The flag state is not EU ;).

 

steamboats

[pully8]

will there be a coronial inquest by the German authorities?

[notamermaid]

I am not sure what you mean by coronial inquest. Perhaps steamboats in the post before has already sort of given you the answer. In the German reports the "Staatsanwaltschaft Nürnberg" is mentioned as having given an initial statement. That is the court (a high-ish court in jurisdiction that also deals with serious offences against the law of the worst kind) responsible as the accident occured within their area in Bavaria.

 

If you have a complaint about how your cruise went: http://www.vikingcruises.com/terms-conditions/index.html

 

This explains what you have put your signature under. Viking, Inc. That company does not operate the ships. For any serious allegations - if there were any - you would need to address the headquarters in Basel. In this serious accident, depending on your claim, things might be more complicated, as steamboats has said. Some cases can indeed become complicated as there are third parties involved, like coach tour operators, hotels, etc.

 

notamermaid

[Mark_T]

In many (most) countries when there is a death there is a requirement for some government appointed official to investigate the death and report on it, often publicly. That individual is often called a Coroner, or a Medical Examiner.

 

They usually also have the duty to conduct or at least instigate an inquest or investigation to ensure that the cause of death is properly determined and the responsibility for the death is properly attributed.

 

I know it is a little different around Europe with different names and procedures but it is somewhat surprising to me that in Germany, there would be no investigation that leads to a determination of the cause and lessons to be learned from the fatal accident, it is even more surprising that almost immediately an official would state that they can't determine a cause due to the extent of the damage, it seems highly premature to be making that sort of determination and almost sounded like they were not actually going to spend any time on it as they had already made up their mind...

Edited September 21, 2016 by Mark_T

[pully8]

thank you MarkT for explaining the role of the coroner and inquests.

 

for a workplace incident that results in a double fatality there are many investigations but it maybe different in Europe. it can take years to get to the coronial stage and some findings are published on line in some countries.

 

industrial laws no doubt vary from country to country. sometimes it also depends on the terms of the employment contracts. not sure if the men were contractors or employees of the shipping line.

 

nevertheless as some have said the cause may never be identified albeit publically. thankfully these events and loss of life are not common.