Port Galveston closed due to fog

[proggieus]

Wow that's crazy. It took us way longer to get out of Houston than usual. We stopped at buckies for some dinner but it was like 9pm till I was on a highway that didn't resemble stupid traffic.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Unfortuatly the plan was for them to drive straight home to Wichita KS, they ended up stopping of course but in any case we would have a very hard time talking them into another galveston cruise:rolleyes:

 

 

Good thing we were discussing going on symphony next anyways

[cstimmons]

Unfortuatly the plan was for them to drive straight home to Wichita KS, they ended up stopping of course but in any case we would have a very hard time talking them into another galveston cruise:rolleyes:

 

 

Good thing we were discussing going on symphony next anyways

We'd definitely do liberty again. Looking at navigator southern cruise for next though.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[George C]

It seems that Galveston has problems with fog more than most other ports.

 

Sent from my SM-S820L using Forums mobile app

 

Stupid Texas laws make fog issue worse,since if ship is docked rccl can only serve cheap generic booze which I am sure rccl loves.

[Landa12]

Does New Orleans have this fog problem too?

 

 

 

No not at all!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[askfrog]

Is it an all year or just certain times of the year fog problem out of Galveston? We had a terrible blizzard the last couple of days, 4ft snow drifts across the roads, zero visibility and Walmart actually closed yesterday!

[Clarea]

Is it an all year or just certain times of the year fog problem out of Galveston? We had a terrible blizzard the last couple of days, 4ft snow drifts across the roads, zero visibility and Walmart actually closed yesterday!

Worst is Jan/Feb in Galveston. Tampa also has periods of fog during those same months.

[George C]

Worst is Jan/Feb in Galveston. Tampa also has periods of fog during those same months.

 

We had issues end of April in 2016 and 2017

[cruiser1956]

We had fog in New Orleans also, but they were able to maneuver the ship up the river. Blowing the fog horn every 2-3 minutes, changing pilots often. It was so eerie. I did not particularly care for the river part of the cruise. But, I didn't particularly care for the way the port was handled yesterday either.

[denamo]

Most likely if fog is involved in Galveston, it's January or February. It can sometimes creep into March.

 

We've been on a cruise out of Galveston with a delayed disembarkation and the exact same stories were heard. We didn't leave Galveston until 6 P.M. It was a New Years Eve cruise and had to be at work the next day. Getting home at 2:00 A.M. was not fun! ;p

 

The one common factor every time is what chaos the whole scene is. Seems since this is not a one time event, a better plan of action could happen with Royal and their disembarkation process and the port authorities once in the terminal.

 

Totally understand the personal frustrations related here on this thread. Hope everyone was able to get all transportation issues resolved by now.

[Goodtime Cruizin]

You would think that they had figured out how to handle these fog delays on board by now, they’re becoming so frequent.

 

It's unfortunate, but I've been told that the newest models of the FogStopper have been backordered to Royal.

[TPCRUISER2]

Tampa has same problem with Skyway Bridge and fog. Have noticed cruise ships coming in very early to avoid fog.

[Trin1103]

Today seems a little better from what I see on the port's webcam....here's hoping things smooth out down there before we get there for our Saturday embarkation!!!

[Old_Folks]

We were on the LOTS trying to get into Galveston when the fog hit. The staff of the ship did everything they could to make the whole affair as painless as possible. Fog, Galveston Security, and Customs are all beyond the control of any ships personnel. We sat in the main dining room for over 6 hours waiting for the ship to dock. Many people we talked to missed flights and rides. We were fortunate, we drove to Galveston. The ship provided sandwiches and drinks, the Cafe Promenade and Sorrento’s Pizza were open and serving the couple times I went there for soda. I don’t believe the Windjammer was open but I did not go back there after we ate an early breakfast. Sandwiches were also provided just outside the main dining room we were waiting in along with gluten free sandwiches for those that needed it, along with coffee and ice water. An announcement was made for those wishing to stay in their staterooms for them to remain there. I’m sure the crew was as taxed as any of the passengers as they were delayed as well. The Captain made several announcements letting us all know the updates as he received them from the Port.

 

When the Port of Galveston opened, we made our way to dock. The ships personnel were very attentive and made the disembarkation as painless as possible all the while remaining courteous the passengers. Many people tried to rush the doors as soon as we docked to exit the ship. The crew remained attentive and courteous and allowed the people that were there first to get off, keeping the line jumpers from cutting ahead of everyone else. I thought they handled the disembarkation as well as they could.

 

When we finally got to the customs agent we were assigned to, after I asked him, said he had been there since 6 AM, so I’m sure he too was I as stressed as anyone else.

 

The crew of the Liberty of the Seas went above and beyond any expectations I had. The entire situation was out was out of control of the crew or Royal Caribbean. The blame rests with no one. I’m my humble opinion, the crew and staff did a wonderful job considering the hand it was dealt. I feel the oncoming passengers were more affected as they ended up starting their vacation several hours late, again due to Mother Nature. My hat is off to the crew and staff of the Liberty of the Seas. I hope the rest of the cruise is wonderful and everyone on board has a great time!

 

Just my two cents...

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Talex831]

Thank you for that post! It’s always nice to read the positive instead of all the negative! If everyone could just take a breath and realize no one could’ve predicted or changed the weather, everyone would be happier.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cpnhagen34]

I will agree with the above post... But I do want to add one point. The fog was dense, no joke. Disembarkation was a mess and the crew could have been better. I understand that we were late and people wanted to move on, but half the ship went for self assist departure and only half of them actually had their bags.

Announcements on the ship were not clear about waiting in the designated lounge.

[Flight Jacket]

We are on the liberty of the seas and the port is fogged in.

 

 

The are saying it might open by noon it that still won’t get us tied up until 1:30 2:00

 

I was on the delayed debark for Liberty. I think we were delayed at least 6 hours. what I'd like to know is why a ship that can see in the dark with radar and GPS etc, can't dock without Port Pilots? according to an article in today's Houston Chronicle, Pilots won't pilot without being able to see. Yet they are on the ship with "see" in the dark ability. an airplane can land in fog at night. why can't a ship dock in fog in Galveston. they can to this at other ports I've read.

[chengkp75]

I was on the delayed debark for Liberty. I think we were delayed at least 6 hours. what I'd like to know is why a ship that can see in the dark with radar and GPS etc, can't dock without Port Pilots? according to an article in today's Houston Chronicle, Pilots won't pilot without being able to see. Yet they are on the ship with "see" in the dark ability. an airplane can land in fog at night. why can't a ship dock in fog in Galveston. they can to this at other ports I've read.

 

Some of this is federal regulations (if the USCG Captain of the Port closes the port, its closed), some of it is the pilot's association rules, which are primarily governed by their insurance coverage.

 

Unlike an airplane's radar, a ship's radar has a large "blind spot" at the bow. Depending on the ship design, and type of ship (cruise ship, container ship, tanker), this blind spot can be up to a half mile from the bow. GPS is fine for knowing where your ship is, and differential GPS is normally used for docking (more accurate), but you still have to rely on channel markers (not always visible on radar) and charts or electronic charts to tell you where that GPS position is in relation to the channel or the dock, or the breakwater, etc. And you are only as accurate as the latest update of the chart or electronic chart. How many times has your phone's GPS put you in the middle of a building when driving along?

 

Then there is traffic. Not all small boats are visible on radar (a wooden or fiberglass boat does not show up almost at all, unless they have a radar reflector), and remember the blind spot. Not all small boats have AIS systems on them (very few pleasure boats), so you can't even tell if a radar return is a small boat, a buoy, a large wave, or just a ghost return from the sea's surface. The pilots don't want to run down a small boat.

 

An airplane is very maneuverable, compared to a ship, and has the advantage of maneuverability in three dimensions in case of a problem. A ship has a much, much lower power to weight ratio, and has a vast amount more inertia than a plane, so when a ship is moving, it takes a lot of power, or a lot of time, or both, to stop it. And, just like an airplane, once a ship slows to a certain speed, you lose maneuverability (the plane stalls and falls out of the sky, the ship loses the ability to keep a constant heading, or to maintain position in adverse currents).

 

When a large moving object, like a ship, moving with a good bit of inertia (even at slow speeds), hits a large stationary object like a dock in a manner that was not intended, very bad things happen in a real hurry.

 

I'm not sure what ports you've read that allow pilots to dock "blind", but I've never heard of it. Most pilot associations and USCG Captains of the Port will have a safe minimum like a quarter mile. Similarly, federal law requires airplanes to have a 1/2 mile visibility to take off, and each airport sets the minimum visibility to make an IFR approach and landing. There has to be a minimum distance and altitude where the plane can see the landing lights.

[Flight Jacket]

That was a very informative reply. Thank you. I was not aware of the blind spot in the radar. So considering the massive confusion for thousands of travelers when the port is closed due to fog, what about the following option? First, this is the HOME port for these ships so the Pilots and Captains should be intimately familiar with the channel and surrounds. It seems technically feasible for a digital path to be created for the auto pilot (or Captain) to follow that would keep the ship in the deepest part of the channel and avoid all known obstacles. but that still leaves the blind spot and small boats. so why not have the Pilot Boat that delivers the Pilot to the cruise ship, get out in front of the cruise ship and follow the same digital "path" that the cruise ship is going to follow? The smaller pilot boat would not have a blind spot and could make frequent warning sounds so that every one who can't see is aware of their presence. and then, the Pilot Boat and cruise ship would proceed VERY slowly. I have seen cruise ships turn around on a dime when tendering. they have so many thrusters they have complete control at slow speeds. I doubt they lose control at slow speeds. I've seen the complete precision by which they dock at slow speeds and the digital displays that guide them. Likewise, the Pilot Boat going very slow with good radar could detect a fishing boat and bring the whole thing to a halt if necessary for the small boat to move out of the way. Maybe having more than one LEAD boat would help insure everyone is clear of this digital path to the cruise terminal. So, again, considering available technologies that can drive autonomous cars in the dark and rain, I can't imagine the cruise lines and port authorities can't come up with a better solution that just closing the port to ALL traffic during fog.

[Junkhouse]

I have a personal boat with a cheap $600 GPS navigation fish finder. I can follow my previous track within a couple of feet and the maps I have ($100 card with all South East US lakes) have accurate locations of boat lane buoys. The second airplane landing I encountered was night and very foggy. That was over 35 years ago. If they can safely land a plane that is going hundreds of miles an hour it is appalling they can't get a ship into a port that is at the mouth of a ship channel going just miles an hour. Procedures need to be changed but I guess they need to make sure they can still see the light house and hear the fog horns.

[CanadaRob]

I also missed my flight out at 4:44. The issue is that Royal doesn't seem to have a process in place for when this happens.(because it does with some regularity)

Maybe something like

Lets reorganize to try to accomodate the early flight people(similar to what happens on an airplane when trying to make close connections) and maybe have lines that have people manning them to have a better understanding of whats going on.

Could organize lines to have one for the people with flights within 2 1/2-3 hours(anything closer is already a push)

Flights 3-5 hours out

5-8

People driving.

[SciFiGuy1960]

From yesterdays Houston Chronicle.

Fog feud lingers over Galveston's cruise business

[chengkp75]

Let me first point out that the "massive confusion" and economic problems for cruise passengers pales by comparison to the economic impact of the other ships left either stuck in port or at anchor outside when a port closes. The pilots give the cruise ships priority in transits, and there are probably close to 60 ships waiting in Galveston anchorage now, still trying to clear the backlog from a few days ago. If it was possible to improve ship handling to negate fog, it would have happened all over the world, and saved billions of dollars in costly delays.

 

As for a "fish finder" having accurate charts of lake buoys, that is a far different thing than charts of major rivers and ports. Every single month, our navigation officers spend hours each day updating charts, or uploading electronic chart updates, from things like buoys that have been reported moved, to obstructions in the channel, to changing channel depths, etc. And still, even if you are relying on GPS, you won't know if buoys are "set" to one side or another by the wind or current, so you would need to have a "circular" probable position for channel markers (at the limit of the mooring chain), and without visual clues like which way the buoy is leaning you wouldn't know where on that probable circle the buoy is.

 

Large ships are also far more restricted to the channels than small boats, who can make errors in navigation with regards to the channel with no problem. Large ships in relatively shallow and narrow channels (as most are in most ports, relative to the size of the ship), experience a phenomenon known as "canal effect", where the water that is forced between the moving ship and the side of the channel, creates a low pressure, thereby "sucking" the ship towards the side of the channel. An NCL ship had this a couple of years ago in a Florida port (don't remember which) in bright sunlight, and required a delay while the azipod propellers were inspected for damage.

 

When ports are closed to large ships, small boats like tugs and offshore supply boats are free to navigate at their own discretion, and I've seen a launch company drive their 100' launch onto the Galveston jetty in fog, and this company has been operating in Galveston for decades, and the jetty hasn't moved in all that time.

 

The pilots are intimately familiar with the ports and rivers, taking hundreds of ships in and out each year. That still doesn't make them any less inclined to trust anything other than the "mark one eyeball", as the primary source for information. And let me tell you that if the ship were to hit something, or go aground, and the USCG investigation showed that the pilot was relying on something other than visual observations as the primary means of close in navigation, that pilot and that Captain would be found negligent. I'm not saying they don't use the radars, or the GPS, but you cannot operate without a minimum visibility.

 

There have been times when cruise ships are escorted into harbor in dense fog. I remember a couple of years ago, a cruise ship out of Tampa had been delayed by about 3-4 days, so the USCG sent their cutters (2-3) down to escort the ship up the bay. This was a decision of the USCG Captain of the Port, and cost the taxpayers a tidy sum, and the USCG assumed responsibility for any problems.

 

As for low speed control, how many incidents have we seen in just the last couple of years where a ship hits the dock? Carnival in Baltimore, Celebrity in Alaska are a couple that I can think of right off the top of my head. It takes a very fine touch to maneuver something that size carefully. While it is moving, it takes time to stop, and too much stopping force can cause the ship to move in an unintended direction. When stopped, it takes a lot of power to get it moving again, and too much power can cause the ship to build too much momentum to stop in time. Yes, they can be maneuvered beautifully at very slow speeds (it is sometimes the transition between slow speed to very slow speed when thrusters become effective that is the problem), but at that point, environmental factors also become more pronounced, and without visual clues, you don't know how hard a current is running, or which direction.

 

For an example to show the difference between airplanes and ships:

 

Boeing 777: 82.5Mw x 2 engines, 350mt weight

Oasis of the Seas: 20Mw azipod x 3 + 4 x 5.5Mw thrusters, 100,000mt weight

 

The 777 has a power to weight ratio of 0.47, while the Oasis has a power to weight ratio of 0.00082, so the 777 has 57 times more power per ton than the Oasis. That allows for quick corrective actions, rapid response to control inputs, and the ability to quickly get out of harm's way. To compare Oasis to an autonomous car, the one ton car would have a one horsepower engine.

 

I looked, but couldn't find the screen shot we saved when our ship was going up the Amazon river, where the electronic chart (that electronic display that "guides them") showed us either 1 mile aground, or crossing over an island, because the river had changed course and the electronic charts were not updated. Airports don't require frequent surveys to determine where the "approach" pattern has shifted due to silting up of the channel, or require frequent dredging of the "approach" lane.

[Talex831]

First world problems folks! You just spent thousands of dollars on a vacation that many will never in their lifetime be able to take. You missed a flight, had to pay for a hotel, had to call in to work. Anyone who travels should be prepared for any unforeseen delay. Especially cruising out of Galveston where this does happen frequently. Travel insurance is wonderful for these situations. But again, first world problems...please consider how fortunate you are that was the trouble you suffered this week.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[Junkhouse]

From yesterdays Houston Chronicle.

Fog feud lingers over Galveston's cruise business

 

All I had to read was that the pilots declined the invitation to meet soon (they get tired of hearing the industry's concern yet won't safely adjust their procedures) and offered to meet in April when the fog season is over. The pilots' representative argument is that they would not be able to see a stranded fisherman? Give me a break.

[Junkhouse]

The pilots need to get with the times.

https://www.marineinsight.com/marine-navigation/marine-navigation-systems-and-electronic-tools-used-by-ships-pilot/