Rethinking Muster Drills

[sanger727]

10 hours ago, Smokeyham said:

I have read a number of articles about an alternate muster drill being proposed that includes the "watch the video" and then report to a muster station to have your card scanned.   I think there is value in having passengers actually put on a life jacket as part of the drill.   By doing this they will actually know where they are in their cabin (as opposed to desperately searching in an emergency) and will have at least some familiarity with it.

 

I strongly agree with what others have posted along the lines of what you do in training is what you will do in the real thing.

I have never been to a muster where you put your life jacket it on and as far as I know there aren’t usually life jackets in the cabin. I’ve been under the impression that they give those to you at your muster station. But, then again, since they don’t give you life jackets in muster drills I don’t really know. That element hasn’t been included in any muster drill I’ve been to so it’s not lost in the new muster. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

I have never been to a muster where you put your life jacket it on and as far as I know there aren’t usually life jackets in the cabin. I’ve been under the impression that they give those to you at your muster station. But, then again, since they don’t give you life jackets in muster drills I don’t really know. That element hasn’t been included in any muster drill I’ve been to so it’s not lost in the new muster. 

Actually donning lifejackets was standard for NCL when I worked there in 2004-2008.  One of the things I would do during the passenger muster, since as the On Scene Commander for all emergencies I would not normally be part of the passenger muster operation, was to tour around and check how the passengers were doing with their lifejackets.  It was amazing, but at least two or three people, every single week, would get their lifejacket on in a manner where instead of turning an unconscious person face up (the requirement for Type I jackets used on ocean going ships), it would use the 30 lbs of flotation to hold their face in the water.  It was a good learning opportunity to teach all those at the muster station about jackets, but I always shook my head afterwards. 

 

Older ships, particularly those with outside muster locations tend to still have lifejackets in the cabins, though that is also changing.  A lot of this was done because of accidents where the passengers walked to muster dragging the straps of the jackets along, and tripped over them or damaged the straps/buckles.  My personal philosophy, and one that is completely contrary to the new muster format, is that passengers should bring the lifejackets to drill, don them properly, and then no one is dismissed until the jackets are prepared for stowage again, by extending the straps all the way, and wrapping and buckling them around the jacket so there is nothing dangling.  But, then again, my philosophy is that the person most important to my personal safety is the person looking back at me in the mirror each morning.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I have never been to a muster where you put your life jacket it on and as far as I know there aren’t usually life jackets in the cabin. I’ve been under the impression that they give those to you at your muster station. But, then again, since they don’t give you life jackets in muster drills I don’t really know. That element hasn’t been included in any muster drill I’ve been to so it’s not lost in the new muster. 

IIRC, the first few musters we attended (we started cruising in 2002) had us bring the life jackets from our cabins and then put them on. I believe bringing them stopped as chengkp75 wrote because of people falling over the hanging straps.

[nosapphire]

Every muster drill I have attended (which is from UK ships) has meant putting the lifejacket on. And lifejackets are in the cabins, although every ship also has sufficient lifejackets in the bins by the lifeboats for everybody on board.

Putting it on was useful as they all vary, modern ones are much easier than the old style but it is still handy to know which is front and which is back (tip: the front is the bit with the whistle and light - which a helpful airline steward once told us was to attract sharks.......).

 

 

[Heidi13]

Same as the Chief, every cruise with P&O and Princess, the liefjackets were stowed in the cabins and we had to bring them to the Assembly Station, donning the lifejacket after a demonstration. I also agree that having an opportunity to don the lifejacket is an important training opportunity.

 

On our recent Viking cruise, all lifejackets are stowed close to the Assembly Stations/Survival Craft, so the drill only included a demonstration of how to don the liefjacket. We lost an important opportunity by not actually donning the lifejacket.

 

While they are simple, similar to the Chief, I have witnessed numerous pax putting them on incorrectly, even after watching a demonstration.

[Aquahound]

6 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I have never been to a muster where you put your life jacket it on and as far as I know there aren’t usually life jackets in the cabin. I’ve been under the impression that they give those to you at your muster station. But, then again, since they don’t give you life jackets in muster drills I don’t really know. That element hasn’t been included in any muster drill I’ve been to so it’s not lost in the new muster. 

 

That's a relatively new thing with some cruise lines.  Not long ago, you had to carry your life jackets to your muster station.  As noted, some lines still require it, like Princess.  

[sanger727]

11 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

That's a relatively new thing with some cruise lines.  Not long ago, you had to carry your life jackets to your muster station.  As noted, some lines still require it, like Princess.  

Got it. My first cruise was around 2010. Have been on carnival, Norwegian, and celebrity and none have had us bring life jackets to or put them on during muster. The newest low for muster drill was celebrity where we we sat in the theater (I do realize that that was my muster station) And watched a James Bond style spy video ‘muster briefing’. It was silly. And made the whole thing really hard to take seriously.  If this is the new ‘standard’ it’s not hard to meet that...

[Luckiestmanonearth]

We’ve been on many cruises that you had to wear your life jacket on the hot deck during the muster drill.  But it’s been a few years so maybe they wised up

[chengkp75]

40 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

We’ve been on many cruises that you had to wear your life jacket on the hot deck during the muster drill.  But it’s been a few years so maybe they wised up

Definitely "wised up", wouldn't want to interfere with the fun with some practical safety concerns.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Definitely "wised up", wouldn't want to interfere with the fun with some practical safety concerns.

subjecting people to extreme heat and then having to put on a life jacket and making conditions 10x worse is cruel and unusual punishment and does NOT make make the experience any more or less serious when it comes to safety.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Luckiestmanonearth

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

 

subjecting people to extreme heat and then having to put on a life jacket and making conditions 10x worse is cruel and unusual punishment and does NOT make make the experience any more or less serious when it comes to safety.

Sorry, I firmly believe that performance in an emergency is directly related to how you train.  "Train as you fight, fight as you train".  So, emergencies should be limited to cooler days?

 

As Confucius says:

 

What I hear, I forget

What I see, I remember

What I do, I understand

[chengkp75]

I am afraid that this new procedure, with its emphasis on "not interrupting the vacation", will lead to lackadaisical response by passengers in a real emergency ("oh, there's no set time for me to get to the muster station, I can saunter along, or collect my things"), and lead to other unintended consequences, like the Italian law that requires cruise lines to refund a portion of the cruise fare to the passenger if they are called to muster stations, but the cruise continues.  This is why Schettino never called for the passengers to muster on the Concordia, he did not want the blow back from Costa for mustering and losing money. 

[Smokeyham]

3 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

 

subjecting people to extreme heat and then having to put on a life jacket and making conditions 10x worse is cruel and unusual punishment and does NOT make make the experience any more or less serious when it comes to safety.

"Cruel and unusual punishment" seems way overblown for a short training session that could save the lives of passengers.  I think that being out there, and looking at the very lifeboat that you might need to get into in an emergency does reinforce how real this can be.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Sorry, I firmly believe that performance in an emergency is directly related to how you train.  "Train as you fight, fight as you train".  So, emergencies should be limited to cooler days?

 

As Confucius says:

 

What I hear, I forget

What I see, I remember

What I do, I understand

you missed a line

 

What I hear, I forget

What I see, I remember

What I do, I understand

 

When I’m forced to do something I don’t enjoy, I don’t cruise

[Luckiestmanonearth]

5 hours ago, Smokeyham said:

"Cruel and unusual punishment" seems way overblown for a short training session that could save the lives of passengers.  I think that being out there, and looking at the very lifeboat that you might need to get into in an emergency does reinforce how real this can be.

what does me being there looking at the lifeboat have anything to do with having to wear the life jacket?

 

when people fly, does everyone get to practice putting on the life jacket before the plane takes off ?

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

 

subjecting people to extreme heat and then having to put on a life jacket and making conditions 10x worse is cruel and unusual punishment and does NOT make make the experience any more or less serious when it comes to safety.

 

If you booked a cruise to a warm climate, how can it be deemed as "Subjecting" you to extreme heat. If concerned with exterior Musters, select one of the many cruise lines that use separate interior Assembly Stations. Cruised once with RCCL with an Assembly Station at the Survival Craft, never returned to RCCL. Although their were other reasons, the muster was definitely a consideration.

 

When a ship is designed with the Assembly Stations at the Survival Craft, the Master has no option of changing it, as those are the certified locations. If the ship is in a heat wave, monsoon or the Arctic, you will muster outside. If you select a cruise line using this arrangement, especially when you mention that you have taken many with this arrangement, you are accepting of the arrangement on booking additional cruises.

 

Personally, having experienced it once, I will never work or cruise on a ship that has Assembly Stations at the Survival Craft. In the event of an emergency, I do not want to have to consider pax comfort out in the elements when deciding to sound GES and mustering the pax.

 

Rather than being subjected to cruel and unusual punishment, suggest booking cruises with interior Assembly Stations.

[PromenadeDeckWriter]

And what happens, in a situation when one IS called to muster station and have to don lifeljackets in the same extreme heat (or cold) conditions? How is that any different from a drill? 

 

I make a point of donning mine whether or not they are used in muster drills, and actively seek out a crew member to make sure I have done it properly. I would rather know (and act upon it) rather than just seeing/hearing it. I learn by doing, so yes, I need to see where I muster, how to get there, and how to don the lifejacket on properly. (I can't get the image out of my head from when I read about the Lusitania sinking, and how half of the people in the water had their lifejackets on incorrectly, doing exactly the opposite - keeping the person's head underwater. That alone is enough to make me want to make sure I've done it right.) The officer I asked was VERY PLEASED that I had taken it seriously and gave it some thought. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

you missed a line

 

What I hear, I forget

What I see, I remember

What I do, I understand

 

When I’m forced to do something I don’t enjoy, I don’t cruise

Like I said, don't let anything get in the way of the party.  Your attitude is one of the reasons I don't work cruise ships anymore.

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

When I’m forced to do something I don’t enjoy,

 

You would not have enjoyed being one of my students.  

 

But, in retrospect, I believe, as I have been told by many of my past students, you have been benefited.  

[Luckiestmanonearth]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Like I said, don't let anything get in the way of the party.  Your attitude is one of the reasons I don't work cruise ships anymore.

I honestly think many that are conflicted with my comments are a bit hypocritical.

 

I’m 99% sure you are the same people I see on airline flights not paying attention to the flight attendant safety instructions before taking off.  Whether you chose to be honest about this fact is up to you.

 

Kind of ironic don’t you think 

[Aquahound]

4 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

when people fly, does everyone get to practice putting on the life jacket before the plane takes off ?

 

No, but considering planes go into the sky, not on to the water (except seaplanes), you do have to put on the pertinent safety device....a seatbelt...which is demonstrated by crew.  Whether you pay attention or not, you still have to do it.  

 

Newflash.  Ships are on a large body of water.  Therefore the pertinent safety device is....you guessed it....the life jacket.  

 

Somehow, I think this still doesn't make sense to you.  But that's ok.  In my line of work, you're what I call job security.  

Edited August 4, 2020 by Aquahound

[Smokeyham]

It is half an hour, at most, out of your cruise.   Do the drill and learn something that may save your life.  It is not that hard.

[Heidi13]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Like I said, don't let anything get in the way of the party.  Your attitude is one of the reasons I don't work cruise ships anymore.

 

Same here, so glad I am retired. Can't imagine the number of pax and even crew that actually believe life aboard ship is a democracy.😁

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Same here, so glad I am retired. Can't imagine the number of pax and even crew that actually believe life aboard ship is a democracy.😁

When I started on cruise ships, my wife couldn't believe that I would last, having to deal with passengers.  It was actually the "room temperature IQ" crew who drove me to fits (sad state of US crew).  Once I understood that most passenger interactions were about them getting something for nothing, I just let that roll off, and let the Hotel Manager deal with that aspect.  As I said, it was the few pax who felt that their own safety, and that of everyone else onboard, was of no concern, that really got to me.

[sanger727]

14 hours ago, Luckiestmanonearth said:

you missed a line

 

What I hear, I forget

What I see, I remember

What I do, I understand

 

When I’m forced to do something I don’t enjoy, I don’t cruise

think you do have a bit of a point. I’m fine admitting that I’m nowhere close to as experienced a cruiser as many people here. Have cruised for approx 10 years and in that time have taken 5 cruises. My first cruise was on carnival and it had an outdoor muster. The rest of my cruises were on Norwegian and celebrity and had indoor musters (and by coincidence, they were all in the theater). While I’ve been told that this is all based on the design of the ship and it’s possible to have an indoor muster on carnival and an outdoor muster on the other cruise lines, that simply hasn’t been my experience. The outdoor muster was miserable and left a bad taste in my mouth for carnival. There are other reasons I haven’t returned to carnival but the outdoor muster was certainly a pertinent factor. Yes, I realize it’s only 30 minutes of my vacation, but it was a horribly unpleasant experience that I’ve now associated with carnival. Cruising is a competitive industry so you choose the line you enjoy the most to cruise with in the future. And I’ve seen people pick much sillier reasons for switching lines like not getting their room cleaned twice a day or there not being table clothes at dinner. Is not wanting to standing outside shoulder to shoulder with a ton of people, wedged in the back to the point I start to feel claustrophobic, on a hot day really the worst reason for not choosing a cruise? I don’t think so. If carnival adopted this style muster where I could watch the information and report to the station but not have to get crushed by 100 people on a hot day, I would be more likely to try them again.