CDC Officially Seeking Public Comments Through Sept 21st for future Cruising Protocols

[daisy-mae]

9 hours ago, CJcruzer said:

 

Absolutely.

 

In addition, several countries (i.e. Canada being one) have travel advisories for non-essential travel - which nullifies out of country travel insurance should someone require medical attention, both on or off the ship - for Covid 19.   And we all know how expensive long hospitals stays can be.   This puts a SERIOUS crimp on recreational travel outside one’s country.

 

Carol

 

I believe that in the case of Canadian companies, until the advisory is lifted, there will be no out-of-country insurance available for any and all medical emergencies, not just Covid-19. 

[npcl]

3 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

For once you and I will disagree.  The contact tracing is deplorable from the airlines.  People are not notified until far too late IF they are notified.

 

Cases here and in your country have been directly related to air travel. 

Don’t get me wrong - air travel has been a boon but it has also been a curse when it comes to the virus.  

The obvious attack rate by the virus might have been higher on the cruise ships since no one could get off  but there were a lot more flights in the air and each one was carrying the virus and people walked off spreading it.  

We’ll just agree to disagree.  I’m not sticking up for the cruise ships but I know where some of the virus came from here and it wasn’t the cruise ships.  It was in certain ports no question - but the rest was from travel and a big part of it was air.  

Meanwhile the airlines are starting to fill the middle seats and fly full.  Go figure.

The issue is no how virus is transported.  To stop transport you need to stop all land based travel as well as aircraft travel. Both land travel and air travel are considered to be essential.  Cruising not so much. During an outbreak like this people should not be doing recreational travel anywhere by any method.

 

The issue is the attack rate during the mode of transport.  The cruise outbreaks have indicated an R0 greater then 12 in a cruise ship environment.  Much higher then the more normal R0 of 4.

 

There is more reporting and contact tracing then one hears about.  The only way you would know in most countries is to actually have been involved on such a flight. When you do contact tracing you cannot even tell a person when you tell them that have had contact with a case, who the person that they were in contact with due to privacy.  In Australia they publish flights that have had active cases.  Here where I live in Oregon the county health department will put do a release to the news if someone has tested positive on a recent flight.

 

The process is well defined if someone tests positive and it is determined that they were on an aircraft during the infectious period, the county is required to notify the CDC and the other end of the impacted flight.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by npcl

[npcl]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I appreciate reading your post.  Not having a legal education and familiar with the regulatory processes with all of its nuances, why ought I bother responding?  

 

Such "actions" give the "appearance" by the Federal Government of being "inclusive" in support of our democracy.  If your assertion that the RFI is successful in preventing the cruise lines from successfully filing a law suit about any restrictions the CDC requires, that seems to be the main purpose of this "request for public comment".  If so, the public be dam^%d!  Whatever thoughts we, the public might add:  "Go away, you bother us!"

 

Probably too negative of a view of this "offer" by the CDC at this point of time.  But, that's where I currently am.  

 

Tell me I am wrong.  And why.

 

 

You seemed to have missed the point about trying to get the cruise lines to engage.  That putting this out could be considered them as being on the clock.  That if they do not respond it could limit their ability to sue in the future claiming that they were not consulted and the rules were arbitrary.  The fact that it might limit the ability of the cruise lines to make certain claims, does not make that the purpose of the RFI, only that it gives the cruise lines more incentive to engage and respond.

 

Having been on the other side of these kinds of filings. The purpose is to allow input.  But input of the general kind that is not in response to the specific question is really not considered to be a valid response.  Most of what the general public will post will be of the "let them cruise" or "cruise ships are clean and can handle infections" variety.  Not exactly productive input to the listed questions. While the number of such responses will be tabulated they are usually considered not to be applicable to the questions.

 

On the other hand there is not anything that prevent someone from actually providing input to the specific questions.  You will note that those question match up pretty closely with the areas identified by the CDC in the no sail orders as having to be addressed by the cruise lines.

Edited July 26, 2020 by npcl

[CJcruzer]

11 hours ago, daisy-mae said:

 

I believe that in the case of Canadian companies, until the advisory is lifted, there will be no out-of-country insurance available for any and all medical emergencies, not just Covid-19. 

 

I was just reading Allianz policy and it mentions that if there were a travel advisory, it could also affect trip cancellation/interruption portion of coverage also.   So not only medical would be involved.  

 

Carol

 

 

 

[Himself]

On 7/25/2020 at 5:11 AM, kazu said:

Thanks for sharing the link 🙂 

 

Since anyone can give their opinion, it means a lot of people who never cruise and/who have no plan on cruising could give input different than what cruisers do.  

 

I agree if they are waiting for the comments then there won’t be any ships sailing in  2020 mostly likely.  Looks like Princess’ pause until Dec. 15th was bang on.

I do not cruise Europe.  I do not expect any HAL Cruise until January if then.  I am fearful HAL would go under, if we don't start bu late December or early January.

[rkacruiser]

17 hours ago, npcl said:

You seemed to have missed the point about trying to get the cruise lines to engage.  That putting this out could be considered them as being on the clock.  That if they do not respond it could limit their ability to sue in the future claiming that they were not consulted and the rules were arbitrary.  The fact that it might limit the ability of the cruise lines to make certain claims, does not make that the purpose of the RFI, only that it gives the cruise lines more incentive to engage and respond.

 

Having been on the other side of these kinds of filings. The purpose is to allow input.  But input of the general kind that is not in response to the specific question is really not considered to be a valid response.  Most of what the general public will post will be of the "let them cruise" or "cruise ships are clean and can handle infections" variety.  Not exactly productive input to the listed questions. While the number of such responses will be tabulated they are usually considered not to be applicable to the questions.

 

On the other hand there is not anything that prevent someone from actually providing input to the specific questions.  You will note that those question match up pretty closely with the areas identified by the CDC in the no sail orders as having to be addressed by the cruise lines.

 

I asked for a response to my post and I appreciate you doing so.  Thank you.  

 

I don't think I missed the attempt to get the cruise companies to respond.  They should already be well involved at this point of time.  If they are not, what have they been doing since mid-March?  

 

Your thoughts as to the type of response that the general public might provide are accurate, in my experience.  As a long time Board of Trustee member of my Homeowners Association, our "public" sees issues through their own "reality" and rarely take the broader view that is required to be the "greater good" for our community.  

[Homosassa]

The CDC us not looking for input from the cruising public.

 

Read the Federal Register announcement (not the article in the OP).

 

There is a list of specific questions that the CDC is requesting knowledgeable input from people with the training and expertise to offer suggestions.

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I asked for a response to my post and I appreciate you doing so.  Thank you.  

 

I don't think I missed the attempt to get the cruise companies to respond.  They should already be well involved at this point of time.  If they are not, what have they been doing since mid-March?  

 

Your thoughts as to the type of response that the general public might provide are accurate, in my experience.  As a long time Board of Trustee member of my Homeowners Association, our "public" sees issues through their own "reality" and rarely take the broader view that is required to be the "greater good" for our community.  

That is the question. Why are the cruise lines not actively  working with CDC on getting passengers back on board.

 

In a couple of  different presentations the CDC has commented about the lack of engagement by the cruise lines.  In the most recent no sail order they listed issues that they have had the cruise lines both dealing with the requirements of the no sail order, and the lack of progress on plan submissions (including a couple where the lines have left US waters and informed the CDC that they would not be back while the order remained in place, resulting in no additional work on their plans.

 

Interesting that the one ship that has gotten  CDC green light approval has been Bahamas Paradise Cruise Line.  That the majors with all of their resources have either been unable to or chose not do what is necessary to allow their crew members access to commercial flights in the US.  I particularly the comment from one of Celebrities Captains how they were negatively impacted when Bahamas shutdown US flights because they had been offloading their crew in the Bahamas and then flying them back to the US commercial for connections home, bypassing the intent of the CDC rules.

[npcl]

20 minutes ago, Homosassa said:

The CDC us not looking for input from the cruising public.

 

Read the Federal Register announcement (not the article in the OP).

 

There is a list of specific questions that the CDC is requesting knowledgeable input from people with the training and expertise to offer suggestions.

There are two questions that the general cruising public could make relevant responses to. I am sure members of the cruising public could make informed responses to those two questions. They have certainly expressed opinions about them on CC.

 

24. Because of the economic costs associated with cruising, some cruise ship passengers may be reluctant to cancel travel plans if they become ill or are exposed to COVID-19 or may try to hide symptoms of illness. Should cruise ship operators fully refund or provide incentives to passengers that:

a. Are denied boarding due to COVID-like illness symptoms, confirmed infection, or known exposure?

b. are denied boarding due to coming from high-incidence geographic areas?

c. request last-minute cancellations due to COVID-19 concerns?

25. Due to the costs associated with seeking medical care on board, and the likelihood that sick passengers will be isolated and their travel companions quarantined for the remainder of their voyage, how should cruise ship operators encourage passengers to notify the medical center when they experience COVID-19 symptoms?

[Mosaic]

The CDC did not fail us, WE failed us...

[rkacruiser]

6 minutes ago, Mosaic said:

The CDC did not fail us, WE failed us...

 

Agree that WE are failing us.  Disagree that the CDC has not failed us.  It is not the fault of those who "labor in the vineyard" of the CDC.  I believe they have honestly tried to do their best.  It is the "leadership" that is lacking--for whatever reason--of the Agency that has helped to bring us to where we are today.    

 

[npcl]

18 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Agree that WE are failing us.  Disagree that the CDC has not failed us.  It is not the fault of those who "labor in the vineyard" of the CDC.  I believe they have honestly tried to do their best.  It is the "leadership" that is lacking--for whatever reason--of the Agency that has helped to bring us to where we are today.    

 

Except for at the boarders and potentially between states the CDC can only recommend and advise, which they have done.  At the only place they can use enforcement powers they have done so.

 

Most of the CDC recommendations have been pretty consistent, with changes generally being as the understanding the of illness has changed. 

 

Now they could have done something that I feel that should have been done, which is to stop all non-essential travel between states (similar to what Australia did), including both land as well as by air.  Would have been interesting to see which states filed the first law suits?  Also would have been difficult for them to enforce without the cooperation of the states (good luck with that).

 

They did miss up with the initial tests, but then again I don't think they should have been involved with those at all in the first place.

Edited July 26, 2020 by npcl

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, npcl said:

Now they could have done something that I feel that should have been done, which is to stop all non-essential travel between states (similar to what Australia did), including both land as well as by air.  Would have been interesting to see which states filed the first law suits?  Also would have been difficult for them to enforce without the cooperation of the states (good luck with that).

 

This causes me to wonder if what is taking place with these "un-united States" in their response to the pandemic is similar to what took place when our Country was a Confederation of States after our independence from England was achieved.  

[Cruisercl]

3 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Agree that WE are failing us.  Disagree that the CDC has not failed us.  It is not the fault of those who "labor in the vineyard" of the CDC.  I believe they have honestly tried to do their best.  It is the "leadership" that is lacking--for whatever reason--of the Agency that has helped to bring us to where we are today.    

 

I find it really interesting on these types of comments regarding any handling of an unprecidented global pandemic. Lots of seemingly very uneducated opinions; education by the media is worthless.

No one, including any leadership, science, physician experts know. They are really giving educated opinions on what to do and how things should be done. Not one person on this earth knows how this virus will act, decisions can only be made on what is seen on how the virus behaves.

To blame those that are willing to step up and deal with this horror is disrespectful and quite shameful.  It dishonors all that on the front line working and saving lives.

 

My question to those that blame, what did you so when you handled a global pandemic?  If you know, why didn't you step up?

Is it the government's fault that people in the US refuse to follow scientific opinions and guidance? This is not a military state. Very sad comment on the chosen ignorance of people.

As far as the Federal Register questions, I have worked with giving information to it to help the CDC with decisions.  IMO they asked the general public opinion because it is where the rubber hits the road on cruising. Getting any information from any business, even remotely related to the cruise business, is too biased. They want opinions that will not profit from the cruise industry and maybe harmed if not done well.

 

I looked at it and the amount of questions is quite daunting, but I encourage cruisers to answer any of the questions you can. No need to do all if you don't want to or even can't answer a question. Every opinion will help with the collection of knowledge or opinions. You may come up with a point they have not thought of. They really do want to make a well thought out decision. They are only looking after us.

It does take awhile to have a decision made so I agree with the opinions that cruising will not happen in 2020.

Stay safe all!

 

[Tampa Girl]

15 hours ago, Cruisercl said:

I find it really interesting on these types of comments regarding any handling of an unprecidented global pandemic. Lots of seemingly very uneducated opinions; education by the media is worthless.

No one, including any leadership, science, physician experts know. They are really giving educated opinions on what to do and how things should be done. Not one person on this earth knows how this virus will act, decisions can only be made on what is seen on how the virus behaves.

To blame those that are willing to step up and deal with this horror is disrespectful and quite shameful.  It dishonors all that on the front line working and saving lives.

 

My question to those that blame, what did you so when you handled a global pandemic?  If you know, why didn't you step up?

Is it the government's fault that people in the US refuse to follow scientific opinions and guidance? This is not a military state. Very sad comment on the chosen ignorance of people.

As far as the Federal Register questions, I have worked with giving information to it to help the CDC with decisions.  IMO they asked the general public opinion because it is where the rubber hits the road on cruising. Getting any information from any business, even remotely related to the cruise business, is too biased. They want opinions that will not profit from the cruise industry and maybe harmed if not done well.

 

I looked at it and the amount of questions is quite daunting, but I encourage cruisers to answer any of the questions you can. No need to do all if you don't want to or even can't answer a question. Every opinion will help with the collection of knowledge or opinions. You may come up with a point they have not thought of. They really do want to make a well thought out decision. They are only looking after us.

It does take awhile to have a decision made so I agree with the opinions that cruising will not happen in 2020.

Stay safe all!

 

 

Well said.  Thank you.