Do you feel guilty cruising on environmental grounds?

[Toofarfromthesea]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

A bit of everything really. The idea of having one power source for everything is outdated. It will be a mix and realistically the grid will have to be broken up into smaller parts. We already have apartment blocks in Australia who run their own electric grids. Infrastructure will have to change and Europe has already been doing this it is why the European car manufacturers feel confident to move away from petrol cars. Asia is also starting to make changes which will lead to Asian car manufacturers heading in this direction. There is no stopping the change and it is not just about climate change we have all become more aware of the hazards of air pollution. The UN has declared it the great health emergency of our era. If your country is not preparing for electric cars you'll end up like Cuba trying to keep alive old cars with a mish mash of parts you can find which I guess for car enthusiasts would be the dream 😂

 

That sounds like a lot of unspecific handwaving.

[SelectSys]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Just a silly question but with all those electric cars in California where are you going to get the electricity to charge them?  Can't build more nuclear.  Can't build more dams?  Solar is not very efficient and does not work at night or on cloudy days.  Wind has its limitations and is not real good on a calm day.  And you certainly can't use gas, oil or coal.  So what is left?

 

Hank

 

At the current time generation is actually readily available to support many new cars in California than are currently on the road.  The grid actually isn't taxed all that hard in California outside of the evening hours when people tend to run air conditioners, cook dinner, turn on lights, etc.

 

During the day -especially when the sun is shining - power is so plentiful in California that wholesale prices actually turn negative at times and more so every day due to "excess" solar on the grid.  This provides an opportunity to charge cars at very low prices.  Same overnight when baseload generation plants are idling.

 

With the right software and pricing signals, it is possible to use the system that we have much more efficiently and charge many more cars without building any infrastructure other than creating charging terminals and more energy distribution infrastructure. 

 

EVs actually excite the California utilities a lot as they can make money building out this new infrastructure for car charging.  The utilities think EVs are as good or even better than air conditioning.  This is especially true since the utilities here don't make any money from power sales directly.

 

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

We already have apartment blocks in Australia who run their own electric grids.

 

Most of these I am sure aren't really running an independent grid.  I would bet that this is more about making solar generation subsidies available to customers that live in multi family housing rather than running their own grid.  Almost all of the benefits of solar subsidies have benefits to date have benefited single family homeowners and commercial enterprises.  

 

Going truly off grid really isn't worth it and really adds to the cost except in special situations.  For example, I know of some work in Western Australia where the utilities are taking down power lines and substituting local generation to reduce fire risk associated with downed power lines in rural areas.  Same in California.  Maybe this is also happening where you are as well given the fire risks that exist pretty much in all of Australia.

 

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

If your country is not preparing for electric cars you'll end up like Cuba trying to keep alive old cars with a mish mash of parts you can find which I guess for car enthusiasts would be the dream

 

I know several people here have both electric cars and Baja "war wagons" for surfing and camping.  I am not going to switch to a pure EV as I only have a single vehicle and want the flexibility for traveling in less developed areas of Mexico.  Even a Tesla with a100kWh battery would be challenged driving to Cabo from San Diego efficiently for the foreseeable future.  Driving a Tesla might also attract some potential unwanted attention even though the preferred vehicles of the "narcos" are large 4-door trucks.

[SelectSys]

29 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And the disposal issue for dealing with solar panels and windmills that reach the end of their solar problems is huge.  Solar panels are filled with toxic electronics, and windmills are huge.

 

This is true at the current  Right now the infrastructure for recycling solar panels is very immature and expensive.  The same is true of lithium ion and some other types of batteries.  Many of these chemical batteries are actually a bit tougher to recycle than solar panels.  

 

The hope is that these industries will develop over time and solve the recycling problem as the demand grows.  Only time will tell if this is true.

[SelectSys]

6 hours ago, SteveH2508 said:

“In waking a tiger, use a long stick.” - that isn't socialism that is common sense (unusual for a socialist to show common sense but hey ho...)

 

Did Mao really believe in socialism or did he simply want complete power?  I am not sure.  This one suggests that he was a fan of controlling information and keeping people somewhat ignorant of ideas -

 

“To read too many books is harmful.”
― Mao Zedong

 

Here is something that might be more in line with what you were thinking from a socialist leader -

 

"We Communists are like seeds and the people are like the soil. Wherever we go, we must unite with the people, take root and blossom among them."
“On the Chungking Negotiations” (October 17, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. IV, p. 58.

[ilikeanswers]

40 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Most of these I am sure aren't really running an independent grid.  I would bet that this is more about making solar generation subsidies available to customers that live in multi family housing rather than running their own grid.  Almost all of the benefits of solar subsidies have benefits to date have benefited single family homeowners and commercial enterprises.  

 

While we do have what you are describing but I was referring to fully off the grid apartment blocks, which is technically a bit of an experiment. There has been a push to look into decentralising the power gird because of black out issues like in South Australia. They say microgrids will make it easier to manage electricity in our cities especially if we want to use renewables as our base load. 

[sverigecruiser]

12 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

Infrastructure will have to change and Europe has already been doing this it is why the European car manufacturers feel confident to move away from petrol cars.

 

Are you really sure about that?

 

At least Sweden has a long way to go. I can afford an electric car but  I can't charge it at home or at work so that is not an option for me. My next car will be a petrol car because I have no option. 

[Keksie]

17 hours ago, SelectSys said:

 

At the current time generation is actually readily available to support many new cars in California than are currently on the road.  The grid actually isn't taxed all that hard in California outside of the evening hours when people tend to run air conditioners, cook dinner, turn on lights, etc.

  

So if people would just sit in the dark, in the heat or cold without cooking etc. electric cars would have plenty of power.  Just another reason to not live in California.  

[SelectSys]

35 minutes ago, Keksie said:

So if people would just sit in the dark, in the heat or cold without cooking etc. electric cars would have plenty of power.  Just another reason to not live in California.  

 

Not at all.  As the figure below shows, electric demand is not constant throughout the day.  This is as true in Florida as it is in California.  The system could be used much more efficiently  - i.e., flatten the demand line at a higher level - to charge electric vehicles without building anything at all.

 

There are many reasons to live in either CA or FL, what you suggest simply isn't one of them.

 

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx

 

[ilikeanswers]

7 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

Are you really sure about that?

 

At least Sweden has a long way to go. I can afford an electric car but  I can't charge it at home or at work so that is not an option for me. My next car will be a petrol car because I have no option. 

 

Every country is going at its own pace some are obviously further ahead others are behind the pack but at the end of the day car manufacturers wouldn't be looking at phasing out petrol if they didn't feel confident the infrastructure is getting built. Sweden in the last ten years has gone from having a 160 electric vehicles registered a year to 41000 a year. Electric vehicle sales last year made up 11% of the market share. Somewhere in Sweden there must be decent enough infrastructure that the market is growing🤔

[ldubs]

21 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Just a silly question but with all those electric cars in California where are you going to get the electricity to charge them?  Can't build more nuclear.  Can't build more dams?  Solar is not very efficient and does not work at night or on cloudy days.  Wind has its limitations and is not real good on a calm day.  And you certainly can't use gas, oil or coal.  So what is left?

 

Hank

 

Could build more dams.  Should build more dams.  Paying back a few billions for new water projects that didn't build anything -- kind of like the bullet train.   Hey, the cronies need to send their kids to fancy colleges.  That costs money you know.   😄

 

 

[Keksie]

1 hour ago, SelectSys said:

 

Not at all.  As the figure below shows, electric demand is not constant throughout the day.  This is as true in Florida as it is in California.  The system could be used much more efficiently  - i.e., flatten the demand line at a higher level - to charge electric vehicles without building anything at all.

 

There are many reasons to live in either CA or FL, what you suggest simply isn't one of them.

 

 

I thought that in California this year there were times when people had to turn off their air conditioners etc. to conserve power.  Not the way I choose to live but to each his own.

[Hlitner]

40 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Could build more dams.  Should build more dams.  Paying back a few billions for new water projects that didn't build anything -- kind of like the bullet train.   Hey, the cronies need to send their kids to fancy colleges.  That costs money you know.   😄

 

 

No way can you build a new dam.  The environmentalists in your State would delay any project for at least 30 years by various court challenges.  Those folks disapprove of every form of power although they seem happy to use it in their own lives.  They oppose dams, gas turbines, coal, oil, nuclear, and even wind (because it kills birds).  Solar is OK as long as it does not need any land :).  And when you ask solar proponents what to do at night and on cloudy days they have no answers other then...."somebody needs to invent good batteries" which I assume must be built out of recyclable materials.

 

Hank

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Every country is going at its own pace some are obviously further ahead others are behind the pack but at the end of the day car manufacturers wouldn't be looking at phasing out petrol if they didn't feel confident the infrastructure is getting built. Sweden in the last ten years has gone from having a 160 electric vehicles registered a year to 41000 a year. Electric vehicle sales last year made up 11% of the market share. Somewhere in Sweden there must be decent enough infrastructure that the market is growing🤔

 

Car manufacturers are reacting more to government mandates and bans than anything else.  Hopefully at some point this will actually turn into vehicles that can be produced and sold at a profit.

 

Perhaps our friend  in Sweden has the same problem that many in California also have.  More than 10% of car sales here are now EVs and plugins.  However, the vast majority of these sales go to higher income people that live in single family dwellings.   In CA, those living in multi-family housing don't typically have access to charging infrastructure at home.  Additionally limited work place charging exists. which makes EVs impractical for many.

 

The real question in California is who is going to pay for all the new charging infrastructure mandated by policy?  My guess is our state's highest in the nation tax and utility bills are going higher still. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Could build more dams.  Should build more dams.  Paying back a few billions for new water projects that didn't build anything -- kind of like the bullet train.   Hey, the cronies need to send their kids to fancy colleges.  That costs money you know.   😄

 

 

Actually this is exactly what the state should be doing if they wanted to be clean at reasonable costs.  It would be easy - from an engineering perspective - to create pumped hydro projects in the Sierras that would provide storage for all the increasing amounts of solar energy generated that has nowhere to go.

 

Perhaps the "sticker shock" will get to the politicians when they see their current approach is likely to be unaffordable and will seek more practical solutions.  

 

BTW - did you know that the electricity coming from our large hydro projects in the state isn't considered "green energy" currently?

https://calmatters.org/commentary/2019/05/excluding-hydropower-makes-no-sense/ 

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

No way can you build a new dam.  The environmentalists in your State would delay any project for at least 30 years by various court challenges.  Those folks disapprove of every form of power although they seem happy to use it in their own lives.  They oppose dams, gas turbines, coal, oil, nuclear, and even wind (because it kills birds).  Solar is OK as long as it does not need any land :).  And when you ask solar proponents what to do at night and on cloudy days they have no answers other then...."somebody needs to invent good batteries" which I assume must be built out of recyclable materials.

 

Hank

 

Yep.  You got that right.  But they are happy to take our water bond monies to support the cause.   

  

[SelectSys]

8 minutes ago, Keksie said:

I thought that in California this year there were times when people had to turn off their air conditioners etc. to conserve power.  Not the way I choose to live but to each his own.

 

This is absolutely true.  The state has been making gas plants uneconomic by having rules/laws that prefer renewable resources over traditional powerplants.  The state regulators also "cheated" with fake assumptions around a topic called "resource adequacy" which is supposed to ensure that you have adequate margins to meet the worst case demand.

 

The notion of demand response (i.e., turn off the air conditioner) is now baked into the model.  They also have some assumptions about how much renewables will be available which can change with the weather.  Unfortunately the model is wrong and the Grid Operator told the utilities to cut power to 100's of thousands of customers.

 

Sometimes progressive dreams don't work out as planned.  I personally am hoping we have more outages to help wake our politicians up from their utopian dreams. 

[ilikeanswers]

10 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Car manufacturers are reacting more to government mandates and bans than anything else.  Hopefully at some point this will actually turn into vehicles that can be produced and sold at a profit.

 

Maybe in America but in Europe most manufacturers placed the timelines themselves. You have to remember Europe is much further ahead when it comes to infrastructure. I have driven a lot in Europe and certainly in the last five years I'm finding fast charging stations in all the car parks I go to. Even in Eastern Europe while they were less I was surprised at the frequency of charging stations. In America I don't remember seeing one and in Australia I could count on one hand the charging stations in Sydney let alone if I leave Sydney I could never find a charging station on the highway like you can in Belgium😳

[ilikeanswers]

15 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

The notion of demand response (i.e., turn off the air conditioner) is now baked into the model.  They also have some assumptions about how much renewables will be available which can change with the weather.  Unfortunately the model is wrong and the Grid Operator told the utilities to cut power to 100's of thousands of customers.

 

We have that problem in Sydney. One of the reasons they are looking into microgriding. Though I remember in Doha we visited the Waqif Souk at 42°C outside but inside it was so cool and they have no air conditioning. I was thinking if more buildings could be made this way we wouldn't need air-conditioning😂

[sverigecruiser]

8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Every country is going at its own pace some are obviously further ahead others are behind the pack but at the end of the day car manufacturers wouldn't be looking at phasing out petrol if they didn't feel confident the infrastructure is getting built. Sweden in the last ten years has gone from having a 160 electric vehicles registered a year to 41000 a year. Electric vehicle sales last year made up 11% of the market share. Somewhere in Sweden there must be decent enough infrastructure that the market is growing🤔

 

41000 is much more than 160 but 11% is still not that much. I shouldn't mind to buy a electric car but right now it's not an option. 

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

No way can you build a new dam.  The environmentalists in your State would delay any project for at least 30 years by various court challenges.  Those folks disapprove of every form of power although they seem happy to use it in their own lives.  They oppose dams, gas turbines, coal, oil, nuclear, and even wind (because it kills birds).  Solar is OK as long as it does not need any land :).  And when you ask solar proponents what to do at night and on cloudy days they have no answers other then...."somebody needs to invent good batteries" which I assume must be built out of recyclable materials.

 

Hank

At least they are consistent. In NY, Governor Cuomo and his allies fought for years and finally closed down a nuclear plant near NYC (and really have no plans to replace the power lost), and at the same time the governor is fighting to keep a nuclear plant well upstate open.

[SelectSys]

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Maybe in America but in Europe most manufacturers placed the timelines themselves. You have to remember Europe is much further ahead when it comes to infrastructure. I have driven a lot in Europe and certainly in the last five years I'm finding fast charging stations in all the car parks I go to. Even in Eastern Europe while they were less I was surprised at the frequency of charging stations. In America I don't remember seeing one and in Australia I could count on one hand the charging stations in Sydney let alone if I leave Sydney I could never find a charging station on the highway like you can in Belgium😳

 

Not sure on European manufacturers being so enlightened.  I would love to see information documenting that.  Volkswagen certainly needed prodding  as they are currently installing an EV charging network in the US for lying about diesel emissions in government testing.

 

Regardless of infrastructure, Europe has some disadvantages with respect to how people live that makes charging more difficult.  Many people live in flats compared at least to the US and as a result home charging can be an issue and this creates complicated, expensive retrofit projects.  It will come, it's just time consuming and expensive.  Same is true on the work front.   

 

Here is a chart showing how people live

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Distribution_of_population_by_dwelling_type,_2018_(%)_SILC20.png

BTW - at least in CA many public EV chargers are available even if the tend to be scattered about at shopping malls, restaurants, etc.  Most charging stations aren't well branded or visible.  Most people just have an app on their phone to find them.  I assume the people using these are mostly travelers or people needing a quick charge to get home as everyone I know simply charges at home.  Here is a popular web site for looking up charger locations in the US - https://pluginamerica.org/ if you ever decide to visit her in the future. 

 

The picture below gives you an idea of at least some public charging locations in a part of San Diego (note that hardly anyone uses them):

 

 

 

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

We have that problem in Sydney. One of the reasons they are looking into microgriding. Though I remember in Doha we visited the Waqif Souk at 42°C outside but inside it was so cool and they have no air conditioning. I was thinking if more buildings could be made this way we wouldn't need air-conditioning😂

 

Microgrids aren't really the best solution for this issue.  It's actually better to solve it at the overall grid level as the network effects of sharing resources are better and implementing resources grid side is way cheaper.

 

What is driving a lot of microgrid activities in California is a desire of companies/developers to keep the renewable subsidies alive by providing a new service to sell.  Even our "woke" regulators are suspicious of the microgrid claims and have so far said no to additional subsidies.

 

Microgrids do make sense where the grid isn't or where utilities spend millions of dollars to serve just a few customers.  The options today are really amazing if someone wants to live off the grid while still having all the "normal" convivence associated with on grid living.

[SelectSys]

9 hours ago, ontheweb said:

At least they are consistent. In NY, Governor Cuomo and his allies fought for years and finally closed down a nuclear plant near NYC (and really have no plans to replace the power lost), and at the same time the governor is fighting to keep a nuclear plant well upstate open.

 

Your Governor is also anti-gas and is refusing to allow new supply into the state.  The funny thing he is also forcing the utility to interconnect new gas customers without adequate supplies to serve them in the winter.

 

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063164499

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by SelectSys

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, SelectSys said:

Not sure on European manufacturers being so enlightened.  

 

I don't see it as being enlightened. To me it is just them keeping the market open. Air pollution is a big problem in Europe. That is how cars get banned from cities. If having a car is inconvenient people won't buy them so really car manufacturers have no choice but to be part of the solution. 

 

Quote

Microgrids aren't really the best solution for this issue.  It's actually better to solve it at the overall grid level as the network effects of sharing resources are better and implementing resources grid side is way cheaper.

 

I think there is a point where things get too big and you have to break it up to manage it better. One tower going down wouldn't black out a whole state if the system was more decentralised. 

 

It would better though if we could rely less on air conditioning though. Maybe if we built our homes better we would not need so much cooling and heating in the first place 🤔. 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think there is a point where things get too big and you have to break it up to manage it better. One tower going down wouldn't black out a whole state if the system was more decentralised. 

 

It would better though if we could rely less on air conditioning though. Maybe if we built our homes better we would not need so much cooling and heating in the first place 🤔. 

 

 

The electric grid, like the internet does better when it is interconnected. Microgrids are simply not the answer.  That is what the world was like 100 years ago when every town ran its own system  - more expensive and less reliable. 

 

The issues with big chunks of the Australian grid going down has really has more to due with policy and political issues than engineering challenges.  Politicians overriding engineers caused outage problems here this fall.

 

Better construction/insulation can certainly reduce heating/cooling demand.  A whole semi cult exists around earth ship construction.

 

[ilikeanswers]

15 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 A whole semi cult exists around earth ship construction.

 

I have never heard of this what is this? 

[SelectSys]

4 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I have never heard of this what is this? 

 here is an example

https://earthshipbiotecture.com/

https://www.conserve-energy-future.com/earthship-construction-design-and-examples.php

Edited November 8, 2020 by SelectSys