Mask exemption policy

[sidari]

6 minutes ago, Geobugs said:

The Facts concerning Covid-19 Vaccinations according to CNBC.

 

Covid-19 vaccines require two doses and patients will come back for a second dose because of potentially unpleasant side effects after the first shot.

 

Those side effects include high fever, body aches, bad headaches, daylong exhaustion and other symptoms after receiving the shots. The symptoms were uncomfortable, and at times intense, the participants said they often went away after a day.

 

Moderna and Pfizer acknowledged that their vaccines could induce side effects that are similar to symptoms associated with Covid-19, such as muscle pain, chills and headache.

 

A Moderna trial volunteer experienced "headache, muscle ache, fatigue, nausea" as a result. But that wasn't the worst of it. Haydon also vomited and fainted and eventually admitted himself to urgent care. These adverse side effects see it as a "small price to pay" for the protection the vaccine can offer.

 

Geo ... No mention of one person at least who had reported an issue with his back/ spine problem/ nerves. The Oxford test in the UK has admitted that no one over 55 was included in their tests yet the UK Government have asked the Regulator to give it an urgent pass!

[BermudaBound2014]

52 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Anti-vaxers need to understand that each country is able to set their own entry standards and you can be sure that most will be requiring proof of a current COVID vaccination.  There is no argument, no debate, no whining allowed.  You have the shot or you do not get into the country!  As to cruise lines they will likely be forced by the CDC to require COVID vaccinations for any cruise that calls at a US port.  I would expect the same from Canada, most Asian countries and the EU.  If you don't want to get the vaccine you can snuggle at home :).

 

Hank

 

Unfortunately, like Hank, I believe that governments are going to require the vaccine.  However; I will likely stop travel to anyplace requiring this rushed vaccine for a virus with less than 1% mortality rate.  There is enough to explore in my own country to keep me busy for decades.  This doesn't make me an anti-vaxer. It makes me a common-senser. 

[Hlitner]

9 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Unfortunately, like Hank, I believe that governments are going to require the vaccine.  However; I will likely stop travel to anyplace requiring this rushed vaccine for a virus with less than 1% mortality rate.  There is enough to explore in my own country to keep me busy for decades.  This doesn't make me an anti-vaxer. It makes me a common-senser. 

You think?   I have posted this before but here we go again.  If you are old enough to remember the Vietnam War (I was in it) COVID has already cost 5 times all the lives we lost during Vietnam...and the toll continues to climb.  But that is only part of the story.  What is often ignored is the tremendous morbidity problems from COVID.  We are talking about permanent lung damage, heart damage, kidney damage and even failure, brain damage, neuro damage, lost limbs, etc. etc.  At this point we are still learning, every day about the long term and sometimes permanent damage caused by COVID.  I have not lost any friends or relatives to COVID but I could fill several paragraphs with friends who have been severely damaged by COVID.    And we still do not know what we do not know about future health issues that might result from COVID (just like Shingles results from Chicken Pox but might take 70 years to happen).

 

I do agree that there is plenty to see and do in our own country, but do not think about driving over the border to Canada because once they reopen there may be a vaccination requirement.  And I guess you are not serious about being "Bermuda Bound" because you can be sure they will have strict entry requirements.

 

Hank

[BermudaBound2014]

41 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

You think?   I have posted this before but here we go again.  If you are old enough to remember the Vietnam War (I was in it) COVID has already cost 5 times all the lives we lost during Vietnam...and the toll continues to climb.  But that is only part of the story.  Yes, only part of the story. Look at the raw numbers. If the number of covid deaths double, it will still not make the top 5 leading causes of death and given that the largest percentage of covid deaths occur in those over 70 your comparison to Vietnam lacks all  relevant variables 

 https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death

 

What is often ignored is the tremendous morbidity problems from COVID.  We are talking about permanent lung damage, heart damage, kidney damage and even failure, brain damage, neuro damage, lost limbs, etc. etc.  I believe this claim to be hyperbole. And, as such, can flip the hyperbole to read... "What is often ignored is the tremendous morbidity problems from the Covid VACCINE.... we are talking permanent lung damage, heart damage, ....."

 

It appears that you are in the very vulnerable age group for covid complications. I can see why you would be a passionate "vaccine-pusher" (for lack of a better word and to mean the opposite of the "anti-vaxer" label you use).

 

Do you have Grandchildren? What if this rushed vaccine causes infertility? Heart damage? Etc.... I believe we really should look at the possibility of Covid vaccines through a multitude of lenses and ultimately allow each individual to choose for themselves. 

 

I do agree that there is plenty to see and do in our own country, but do not think about driving over the border to Canada because once they reopen there may be a vaccination requirement.  And I guess you are not serious about being "Bermuda Bound" because you can be sure they will have strict entry requirements. I'm aware of my country borders, but ty for the geography lesson. As mentioned, I will choose not to travel to countries requiring this rushed vaccine. 

 

Hank

PS: I'm not old enough to remember Vietnam, but I am old enough to respectfully thank you for your service. 

See my responses in red above

Edited November 30, 2020 by BermudaBound2014

[Hlitner]

Like I said in an earlier post, after a lifetime working in the government healthcare/insurance industry I learned decades ago that one cannot argue with anti-vaxers.   But your world is going to shrink once we get a COVID vaccine and you can howl to the moon :).  Even if you were completely right it will not change the outcome regarding restrictions for International Travel and cruising.  It will happen.

 

As to my Grandchildren (and yes we have them) they all started getting their shots (the first one happens right after birth).  Once a COVID vaccine is approved for children you can be certain that DD will have the kids at the pediatrician within days for their shots.  I guess they could get hit by a meteorite on their way to get the vaccine and that would worry me as much as infertility.

 

Hank

[hamrag]

Wasn't the OP's intent to discuss mask exemption, now it has morphed into a vaccine 'exemption' discussion....is in 'no one will force me to take it'! That attitude seems selfish to me so, hopefully the cruiselines and airlines will ban anti COVID-19 vaccers from travelling on their vessels.

[BermudaBound2014]

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Like I said in an earlier post, after a lifetime working in the government healthcare/insurance industry I learned decades ago that one cannot argue with anti-vaxers.   But your world is going to shrink once we get a COVID vaccine and you can howl to the moon :). 

 

Hank

 

You continue to miss my point entirely. I'm not sure if that's because you are insisting on pushing vaccines just not reading carefully.  I have not disagreed with you on the intentions of the government. But that doesn't mean I will howl at the moon. I'll just switch the type of vacationing I do. There is PLENTY to do in the good ol' USA :)

[Formula280SS]

14 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

You continue to miss my point entirely. I'm not sure if that's because you are insisting on pushing vaccines just not reading carefully.  I have not disagreed with you on the intentions of the government. But that doesn't mean I will howl at the moon. I'll just switch the type of vacationing I do. There is PLENTY to do in the good ol' USA 🙂

 

Well, it's like months ago when we discussed those that didn't want to cruise (for example, under the MSC Grandiosa styled protocols) and they didn't want anyone else (i.e., you) to cruise either.

 

Now it is the vaccine.  If they want the vaccine, not a problem (and I'm planning on getting it); but they again want everyone else (i.e., you) to also have to have the vaccine also.

 

Regardless of your gracious responses that you simply won't do the vaccine mandated activities, "they" are still never happy and you and others like you are selfish.

 

Selfish, in such an inverse application, is that "you" are not complying with their imposed "self" determination thereby making "you" selfish.

 

Classic.

 

[sidari]

39 minutes ago, hamrag said:

Wasn't the OP's intent to discuss mask exemption, now it has morphed into a vaccine 'exemption' discussion....is in 'no one will force me to take it'! That attitude seems selfish to me so, hopefully the cruiselines and airlines will ban anti COVID-19 vaccers from travelling on their vessels.

Sounds somewhat selfish to me what you are saying, if this Magic vaccine will protect you then why are you worried about those who choose as is their right not to have it.

[BermudaBound2014]

38 minutes ago, sidari said:

Sounds somewhat selfish to me what you are saying, if this Magic vaccine will protect you then why are you worried about those who choose as is their right not to have it.

 

What sounded the most selfish to me is pushing an unknown vaccine on innocent children who have a .0027% chance  of showing even the mildest symptoms from the virus. The only logic I see there is wanting to reach heard immunity because children are carriers. There is no evidence to indicate that children are at any statistically significant risk with Covid-19.  Textbook selfish.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, hamrag said:

Wasn't the OP's intent to discuss mask exemption, now it has morphed into a vaccine 'exemption' discussion....is in 'no one will force me to take it'! That attitude seems selfish to me so, hopefully the cruiselines and airlines will ban anti COVID-19 vaccers from travelling on their vessels.

 

You are the person who first brought vaccine exemptions into this conversation (see post #16). 

Edited December 1, 2020 by BermudaBound2014

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

You continue to miss my point entirely. I'm not sure if that's because you are insisting on pushing vaccines just not reading carefully.  I have not disagreed with you on the intentions of the government. But that doesn't mean I will howl at the moon. I'll just switch the type of vacationing I do. There is PLENTY to do in the good ol' USA 🙂

I thought I understood you perfectly.  You are willing to change your lifestyle to avoid taking a vaccine.  In my work world that is the definition of an anti-vaxer. If we have too many anti-vaxers we will be unable to achieve anything close to herd immunity and COVID will likely be with us for many years to come.  Some viruses such as Smallpox were actually active for over 1000 years.  Once the world started a tough vaccination program they managed to completely wipe out that virus.  MMR is also a very effective vaccine and we could likely wipe out those illnesses if 90%+ would be vaccinated.  But because some folks refuse we recently had a  problem with measles.  It is the same with Whooping Cough (stopped with the DTap vaccine) which made a comeback in NYC and caused lots of problems (especially in hospitals).  The sad thing about anti-vaxers is that impact other folks (i.e. those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons).

 

Hank

[hamrag]

10 hours ago, sidari said:

Sounds somewhat selfish to me what you are saying, if this Magic vaccine will protect you then why are you worried about those who choose as is their right not to have it.

 

I am not worried, or denying anyone such right....simply saying that cruiselines should deny boarding to anyone who does not have proof of vaccine. Why should those with the vaccine be exposed to the risk of quarantine on a cruise, if someone has it and spreads it to other non vaccers....at that point, the ship quarantines?

[hamrag]

9 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

You are the person who first brought vaccine exemptions into this conversation (see post #16). 

That is fake news, maybe you mistook me for a poster who did that? I don't see all posts, as I have a couple of folks on ignore, but cannot see any such posts! 😉

[8420PR]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Like I said in an earlier post, after a lifetime working in the government healthcare/insurance industry I learned decades ago that one cannot argue with anti-vaxers.   

Curiously, I have noticed that while english language 'anti-establishment outrage' social media was focused on masks the past 6 months, german language focused on anti vaccine (and specifically being forced to get the vaccine) since at least back in April 2020.  A friend is a bit of a hippy and she went to a anti-vaccine demo in the summer, but left in tears after she realized the company she was in.  Since then her views mellowed somewhat and her baby son got the MMR vaccine on schedule.

 

From a personal point of view, even though I am not in a risk group to die from COVID-19, the known long term impacts of catching COVID-19 are significantly worse than the long term known impacts of the vaccines (for the avoidance of doubt: none).   My main concern is if the type of vaccine I take now will provide long term protection.

[sidari]

3 hours ago, 8420PR said:

Curiously, I have noticed that while english language 'anti-establishment outrage' social media was focused on masks the past 6 months, german language focused on anti vaccine (and specifically being forced to get the vaccine) since at least back in April 2020.  A friend is a bit of a hippy and she went to a anti-vaccine demo in the summer, but left in tears after she realized the company she was in.  Since then her views mellowed somewhat and her baby son got the MMR vaccine on schedule.

 

From a personal point of view, even though I am not in a risk group to die from COVID-19, the known long term impacts of catching COVID-19 are significantly worse than the long term known impacts of the vaccines (for the avoidance of doubt: none).   My main concern is if the type of vaccine I take now will provide long term protection.

Not one of the vaccine manufacturers can tell you how long it will last or if you will have to have a yearly renewal like the Flu Vaccine.

[sidari]

4 hours ago, hamrag said:

 

I am not worried, or denying anyone such right....simply saying that cruiselines should deny boarding to anyone who does not have proof of vaccine. Why should those with the vaccine be exposed to the risk of quarantine on a cruise, if someone has it and spreads it to other non vaccers....at that point, the ship quarantines?

Why is this not your stance on those who do not want or need a Flu Vaccine but who travel just like everyone else on Aircraft, Ships, Buses etc. Methinks you have been brain washed into believing the Magic vaccine will be the solution to Covid.

[hamrag]

1 hour ago, sidari said:

Why is this not your stance on those who do not want or need a Flu Vaccine but who travel just like everyone else on Aircraft, Ships, Buses etc...

Simply, because ships do not quarantine if any passengers have flu...it's not a deadly virus! Why does my stance matter so much to you??

[BermudaBound2014]

7 hours ago, hamrag said:

That is fake news, maybe you mistook me for a poster who did that? I don't see all posts, as I have a couple of folks on ignore, but cannot see any such posts! 😉

 

My sincere apologies. In post number 16 it was Hlitner who introduced the topic of mandatory vaccines (not you) to this thread. Making mistakes like that is quite embarrassing. Again, my apologies.

 

[hamrag]

5 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

My sincere apologies. In post number 16 it was Hlitner who introduced the topic of mandatory vaccines (not you) to this thread. Making mistakes like that is quite embarrassing. Again, my apologies....

 

Thank you for correcting your mistake, and for your openness and honesty doing so. 🤝 

[Hlitner]

9 hours ago, sidari said:

Why is this not your stance on those who do not want or need a Flu Vaccine but who travel just like everyone else on Aircraft, Ships, Buses etc. Methinks you have been brain washed into believing the Magic vaccine will be the solution to Covid.

i would have no problem of flu shots were mandated on cruise ships.  But the reality is that COVID is about 10 times more deadly and even worse when it comes to morbidity.  While the flu has created problems for cruise lines it has not caused them to lose billions of dollars and shut down for what will be over a year.  A mandatory COVID vaccine will likely be demanded by the CDC and the cruise lines will be happy to comply if it lets them get back to earning revenue.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, sidari said:

 

Shared the Five lines below from a post elsewhere.

 

Can anyone out there tell me why a) the pharmaceutical industry have been pushing the EU for indemnity against lawsuits brought on foot of unforeseen results from the vaccines and b) does it have anything to do with a memo from Vaccines Europe, part of the European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries, which read in part, "The speed and scale of development and rollout [makes it] impossible to generate the same amount of underlying evidence...normally available through extensive clinical trials and healthcare providers building experience"?

 

Pfizer I believe have been granted the get out of jail free card on the Indemnity issue, If your product is as good as you claim it to be why do you need to Indemnified against possible future claims for this vaccine ? 

Lets put a twist to your post.  Suppose the NHS decides that they are going to prohibit anyone in the UK from getting any vaccine?  Do you think anyone would sue the NHS to get a vaccine?    The reality is that pharm companies generally do not lose a penny for lawsuits.  They purchase insurance (often from LLoyds) and simply increase the price of each dose to pay for the insurance premiums plus some extra to further pad their profits.   If you want a real litigious society come live here in the USA where we even sue God for daring to be God.  And then there is this:

World's Most Litigious Man Suing Guinness Book of World Records? - ABC News (go.com)

 

Hank

[popsaw]

On 11/29/2020 at 2:41 PM, d9704011 said:

Exemptions for medical conditions doesn’t necessarily mean that the exempted person is going to be permitted to do anything they wish.  Going back to your original question regarding masks and an MSC cruise, do you believe that people should be able to cruise without a mask while those who are not exempted are required to wear one (similar question for a vaccination requirement)?

Sorry for the late reply. I believe that in an enviroment which accommodates mask exemption it is for the customer to decide whether they wish to expose themselves to such an enviroment. This decision would likely  be based on vulnerability.  Let's go back a year. I wish to go to the theatre yet I have a lung condition which could be fatal if exposed to the flu. My choice is to stay safe at home or go into a potentially dangerous enviroment. I would not have expected the theatre goers to be forced to wear masks because I chose to put myself in that enviroment nor would I have expected the well majority in the theatre to be forced into measures that assume they are ill because a vulnerable person wanted to take a risk.

[popsaw]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:03 AM, Hlitner said:

I thought I understood you perfectly.  You are willing to change your lifestyle to avoid taking a vaccine.  In my work world that is the definition of an anti-vaxer. If we have too many anti-vaxers we will be unable to achieve anything close to herd immunity and COVID will likely be with us for many years to come.  Some viruses such as Smallpox were actually active for over 1000 years.  Once the world started a tough vaccination program they managed to completely wipe out that virus.  MMR is also a very effective vaccine and we could likely wipe out those illnesses if 90%+ would be vaccinated.  But because some folks refuse we recently had a  problem with measles.  It is the same with Whooping Cough (stopped with the DTap vaccine) which made a comeback in NYC and caused lots of problems (especially in hospitals).  The sad thing about anti-vaxers is that impact other folks (i.e. those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons).

 

Hank

I don't smoke but don't care if others do. In your world am I anti smoking?

[d9704011]

4 minutes ago, popsaw said:

Sorry for the late reply. I believe that in an enviroment which accommodates mask exemption it is for the customer to decide whether they wish to expose themselves to such an enviroment. This decision would likely  be based on vulnerability.  Let's go back a year. I wish to go to the theatre yet I have a lung condition which could be fatal if exposed to the flu. My choice is to stay safe at home or go into a potentially dangerous enviroment. I would not have expected the theatre goers to be forced to wear masks because I chose to put myself in that enviroment nor would I have expected the well majority in the theatre to be forced into measures that assume they are ill because a vulnerable person wanted to take a risk.

Well, OK on your theatre-going example.

 

The thing is, the mask requirement is primarily aimed at preventing the spread of the virus from individuals that may already be infected, it’s not really designed to protect the wearer.  So, I don’t see that your scenario fits the situation.