First fully vaccinated flights Florida to NY

[Pratique]

7 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

 And with the exception of occasional Noro issues, the cruise lines have done a fantastic job.

All true, but not yet proven with Covid. So the "fear" may be overblown but it is not baseless. We still need to see if the virus can be managed on a ship, and this depends on whether or not an adequate number of passengers are vaccinated and what other protocols are in place.

[Ocean Boy]

8 minutes ago, Pratique said:

All true, but not yet proven with Covid. So the "fear" may be overblown but it is not baseless. We still need to see if the virus can be managed on a ship, and this depends on whether or not an adequate number of passengers are vaccinated and what other protocols are in place.

Btw, I didn"t realize you were in NH when I suggested you try PVD to FLL on some thread that I can't find right now. Sorry.

[Pratique]

10 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

Btw, I didn"t realize you were in NH when I suggested you try PVD to FLL on some thread that I can't find right now. Sorry.

NP, I actually have considered PVD but it doesn't really help us get to FLL. MHT is our closest airport but everywhere except MCO involves a connection. So Logan is next best.

[Joebucks]

3 hours ago, Pratique said:

There are plenty of facts. As early as the Middle Ages it was recognized that infectious diseases could be brought by ship. The word "quarantine" is derived from the Italian for "forty" because originally ships were held in isolation for 40 days. It has long been known that ships provide an ideal environment for the transmission of infectious diseases. That doesn't mean that the current CDC guidelines are appropriate, but there is a historical basis for treating ships differently from bars in Florida.

 

This was not even close to being my point. Besides, this once again picks out cruising as the most dangerous activity. COVIDs worldwide reach wasn't a result of cruising no matter how much we want to compare it go how people immigrated centuries ago.

[Pratique]

39 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

This was not even close to being my point. Besides, this once again picks out cruising as the most dangerous activity. COVIDs worldwide reach wasn't a result of cruising no matter how much we want to compare it go how people immigrated centuries ago.

Well you said zero facts and logic, baseless scenarios, etc., and I gave you some facts and logic. Maybe they are not compelling, but they're not nothing either. And some Covid spread occurred on the Diamond Princess, so it wasn't zero for the cruise ships either.

 

[dswallow]

COVID didn't spread from the cruise ships to those on land in any sort of measurable manner. It spread from land onto the cruise ships, where those infected were then denied any way to leave the ship for facilities capable of providing necessary isolation on land -- and this no longer is an issue with most of the major cruise ships getting medical facility upgrades to provide for exactly this capability.

On Diamond Princess, the spread was solely onboard from people who brought it onto the ship from land, had symptoms, and were not permitted by the local port governments to be removed from the ship and properly isolated in facilities on land. From there it spread to about 700 people on one ship, which garnered a whole lot of press attention; eventually those people were repatriated via several different methods/governments, and in the process further screwups occurred, such as the US government moving people in planes with no separation between those infected and those not infected.

 

On Ruby Princess, the mistake was testing rules having been skipped by Australian authorities allowing about 100 people with infections to travel home unchecked instead of being isolated. This later led to an estimated spread of about 800 people who had been aboard the Ruby Princess, though it's not known if those people caught the infection while onboard, or were later exposed, just that they had been onboard.

Coronavirus: 'Serious mistakes' made over Ruby Princess outbreak - BBC News

In the scheme of the rest of the world and the spread these were in no way major items of concern. And today, with what we know now, with what improvements have been made, there's simply nothing here that would in any way proceed to this level again. And even if it ever did, these are just minor blips compared to what is going on in the rest of the world, on land, today.

 

[ChutChut]

6 minutes ago, dswallow said:

COVID didn't spread from the cruise ships to those on land in any sort of measurable manner. It spread from land onto the cruise ships, where those infected were then denied any way to leave the ship for facilities capable of providing necessary isolation on land -- and this no longer is an issue with most of the major cruise ships getting medical facility upgrades to provide for exactly this capability.

On Diamond Princess, the spread was solely onboard from people who brought it onto the ship from land, had symptoms, and were not permitted by the local port governments to be removed from the ship and properly isolated in facilities on land. From there it spread to about 700 people on one ship, which garnered a whole lot of press attention; eventually those people were repatriated via several different methods/governments, and in the process further screwups occurred, such as the US government moving people in planes with no separation between those infected and those not infected.

 

On Ruby Princess, the mistake was testing rules having been skipped by Australian authorities allowing about 100 people with infections to travel home unchecked instead of being isolated. This later led to an estimated spread of about 800 people who had been aboard the Ruby Princess, though it's not known if those people caught the infection while onboard, or were later exposed, just that they had been onboard.

Coronavirus: 'Serious mistakes' made over Ruby Princess outbreak - BBC News

In the scheme of the rest of the world and the spread these were in no way major items of concern. And today, with what we know now, with what improvements have been made, there's simply nothing here that would in any way proceed to this level again. And even if it ever did, these are just minor blips compared to what is going on in the rest of the world, on land, today.

 

Precisely THIS.

[Biker19]

7 hours ago, Pratique said:

All true, but not yet proven with Covid.

The number of COVID cases on board ships since the restart last July would indicate that cruise lines have done a pretty good job.

[broberts]

1 hour ago, Biker19 said:

The number of COVID cases on board ships since the restart last July would indicate that cruise lines have done a pretty good job.

 

That really isn't a good measure. Given the incubation period, somone that experiences covid symptoms aboard ship was more than likely infected when they boarded. And, anyone infected aboard ship is not likely to experience symptoms until after they have debarked.

[Biker19]

9 minutes ago, broberts said:

That really isn't a good measure.

It's the measure that counts and the one that grabs headlines.

[dswallow]

10 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

That really isn't a good measure. Given the incubation period, somone that experiences covid symptoms aboard ship was more than likely infected when they boarded. And, anyone infected aboard ship is not likely to experience symptoms until after they have debarked.

 

That's why they do this thing called contact tracing, which includes interviewing a person with COVID about where they've recently been and who've they've been in contact with. Those would clearly identify larger events that led to infections, like we saw in numerous political events and various anti-masker gatherings earlier in the pandemic.

[broberts]

53 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

That's why they do this thing called contact tracing, which includes interviewing a person with COVID about where they've recently been and who've they've been in contact with. Those would clearly identify larger events that led to infections, like we saw in numerous political events and various anti-masker gatherings earlier in the pandemic.

 

Do the numbers reported on cruises factor in contract tracing? I suspect not.

[Pratique]

8 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Do the numbers reported on cruises factor in contract tracing? I suspect not.

Contract tracing is a very weak link, especially when the person being interviewed has had many contacts. All of this is well and good but if vaccinations are not required then we'll need to see how well the risk mitigation plan plays out. The point about the Diamond Princess is not that it brought the virus to land (which technically it did even if it wasn't measured), but that it was picked up along the way and then spread so easily once on board. I would not expect a repeat of that but when it comes to "zero facts and logic" that sounds like rhetoric. A few months ago before the vaccine I suggested that the controlled environment of a ship might be a pretty safe place to be, but many people dismissed me by saying cruise ships are petri dishes.