NCL dropping the e-muster??

[ontheweb]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

Absolutely not. Why make an uncomfortable experience even worse?

to prevent the spread of Covid and other flu viruses.

[RocketMan275]

10 hours ago, happytotravel said:

Thank you for sharing  your insight.

My husband and I were crew members with NCL in the 90's so I know exactly where you are coming from.  Unfortunately, many people do not realize the work that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to the safety portion of cruising.

 

In a real emergency these same people, who are now moaning and groaning, would be very happy to know that the crew members took their safety instructions seriously.

Keep up trying to educate us all.   Thanks, happytotravel

It's not a matter of crew members taking their instructions seriously.  What matters is the 'old fashioned muster' is a waste of time.  You can't hear the crew,  you can't see the crew.

11 hours ago, AwesomO said:

If you hate it so much, just don't cruise. Show them your dissatisfaction with your money, etc etc. Land based hotels and resorts don't have these "wastes of time" so go there. I don't get it.

Why not keep the emuster which is much more efficient for both the crew and the passengers?

12 hours ago, New2cruise2022 said:

 I’ve been on hundreds of flights. There is a lot of minutia we 

If self-interest were the only concern, I would elect for e-muster because it requires less of me. However, I am not the captain of the ship, so my opinion and self-interest matter exactly zero. 

Clearly, this isn't a matter of preference for the captain since it is being implemented across the fleet.  IOW, either corporate or federal is insisting on doing things the 'old fashioned' way.

[RocketMan275]

7 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

to prevent the spread of Covid and other flu viruses.

If that's the case, then we can justify returning to the protocols in place a few months ago. Is that your wish?

Edited November 24, 2022 by RocketMan275

[ontheweb]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

If that's the case, then we can justify returning to the port testing, proof of vaccinations, masking at all times, etc.  Is that your wish?

No, that is overkill.

 

Remember the authorities tightened up the muster drill procedures after the Costa Concordia disaster in which there were passengers who had not mustered. We all hope there is not a new disaster that occurs and causes all lines to stop with the new e-muster drills.  If we end up having to congregate passenger like the old muster, masking for a short time seems to be not too much to ask for.

 

Getting ready to leave to see relatives for Thanksgiving (just took a home Covid test). So to all who are travelling, stay safe.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

You can't hear the crew,  you can't see the crew.

You don't need to.

 

16 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Why not keep the emuster which is much more efficient for both the crew and the passengers?

And you know this is more efficient for the crew how?  And whether it is more effective for the crew doesn't seem to influence your decision.

[phillygwm]

10 hours ago, Juncti said:

Maybe if everyone went promptly it could be faster, but in my experience we're always stuck waiting on people who just refuse to go. Then when it's over the chaos of everyone leaving at the same time from tightly packed areas makes it even longer. Unless you can climb many flights of stairs to escape, you're stuck waiting until you can get a lift up to the floor you need. 

Again, this says more about certain passengers than it does the actual process.  Maybe my idea a couple pages back (i.e. disabling everyone's cards until they've checked in at the station) isn't a bad idea, even for the old school muster.  Obviously, there are some technical issues to make that happen but I wouldn't imagine those are insurmountable (as I always tell my IT people!) 🙂

 

10 hours ago, Juncti said:

It is what it is, but my concern is why shift back right as flu season is running wild. Seems like cramming people into tiny packed rooms right at the start of a trip is a great way to help flu and covid spread. 

Bring a mask. But if this is a serious concern, you probably shouldn't be cruising.  Not saying it can't happen, just that it can happen in many places over the course of your time on the ship. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by phillygwm

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

You don't need to.

 

And you know this is more efficient for the crew how?  And whether it is more effective for the crew doesn't seem to influence your decision.

Simply because the crew had to devote well over an hour to conduct this old school muster when they do not have to spend anytime in the emuster.

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

You don't need to.

If I don't need to be able to hear the safety briefing or see the safety demonstration, then why are we required to be present?

[chengkp75]

31 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Simply because the crew had to devote well over an hour to conduct this old school muster when they do not have to spend anytime in the emuster.

And, yet some still need to devote hours to standing at the muster station to scan cards, and the entire passenger muster teams still need to train sometime on what to do that you don't see during the muster.

30 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If I don't need to be able to hear the safety briefing or see the safety demonstration, then why are we required to be present?

So that you know when and where to shut up, and to allow the crew to "clear" the ship as training.  At no time now, do the couple hundred or so crew assigned to clear the ship get the chance to actually search an empty ship.  But, since you don't see that part of the muster drill, it isn't important.

Edited November 24, 2022 by chengkp75

[dolls123]

I just watched the  pre boarding safety video for my upcoming cruise on the Spirit.

[SplashOfWater]

5 minutes ago, dolls123 said:

I just watched the  pre boarding safety video for my upcoming cruise on the Spirit.

Just watched mine for the Dawn.

[New2cruise2022]

Maybe they will have the classic muster occasionally but not every time? Luck (or unluck?) of the draw if you get it or not. 

[WoodByWright]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

If that's the case, then we can justify returning to the protocols in place a few months ago. Is that your wish?

I would love going back to masks on all the time if that meant 30% full ships! that was wonderful!

[WoodByWright]

26 minutes ago, New2cruise2022 said:

Maybe they will have the classic muster occasionally but not every time? Luck (or unluck?) of the draw if you get it or not. 

I wonder if they will implement it if there is a certain number of new cruisers on board.

[RocketMan275]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, yet some still need to devote hours to standing at the muster station to scan cards, and the entire passenger muster teams still need to train sometime on what to do that you don't see during the muster.

So that you know when and where to shut up, and to allow the crew to "clear" the ship as training.  At no time now, do the couple hundred or so crew assigned to clear the ship get the chance to actually search an empty ship.  But, since you don't see that part of the muster drill, it isn't important.

An emuster takes far less crew time than an old time muster.

Training in clearing the ship does not require tying up 4000 passengers for an old time muster.  BTW, doesn't the crew have to clear the ship during disembarkation?  This trainging could easily be accomplished then. 

 

BTW, I'm not arguing against safety training.  I am arguing that the old fashioned way isn't the best way to do that.   

 

Interesting that you've gone from the importance of this training to the passengers to an admission that it is necessary for training the crew.  

Edited November 24, 2022 by RocketMan275

[RocketMan275]

5 hours ago, WoodByWright said:

I would love going back to masks on all the time if that meant 30% full ships! that was wonderful!

I wouldn't and I imagine that you would have very few who would agree with  you.  I don't want to get into a discussion of masks which would violate the prohibition of such postings on this site.

And, I doubt you would be willing to pay the fare increase if 30% capacity was in effect for any significant length of time. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by RocketMan275

[WoodByWright]

19 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

I wouldn't and I imagine that you would have very few who would agree with  you.  I don't want to get into a discussion of masks which would violate the prohibition of such postings on this site.

And, I doubt you would be willing to pay the fare increase if 30% capacity was in effect for any significant length of time. 

and that is the very reason the passenger percentage was low. it wont happen again, but man was it nice for the short time it was a posibility!

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

  

Interesting that you've gone from the importance of this training to the passengers to an admission that it is necessary for training the crew.  

@chengkp75 has always said that it is important for the crew and for the passengers it is only for showing up and shutting up. If you had ever followed his posts, you would know that.

[chengkp75]

13 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Interesting that you've gone from the importance of this training to the passengers to an admission that it is necessary for training the crew.  

It has always been my position that the passenger muster is far more for the benefit of the crew than the passengers.  

 

13 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

BTW, doesn't the crew have to clear the ship during disembarkation? 

The clearing of the ship during disembarkation is done electronically, by key card swipes at the gangway.  And, the vast majority of those who would be training on clearing the ship would be those who are scrambling to clean the cabins so the passengers don't complain about late sailings.  Also, kind of hard to simulate a search and clear exercise when other crew would be still running around the area, and with cleaning carts in the passageways.

 

And, again, having been in charge of and critiqued passenger muster drills, the only way, and only time that the vast choreography of the drill, that you don't see, because it goes on behind the flood of passengers, is the most efficient, and effective way to train.  I dread an actual emergency on a ship that has used the e-muster, and has a majority of crew that have never experienced the old muster, because I feel that it will lead to disaster.  Which is why, the IMO never amended SOLAS to allow the e-muster, and feel that a method that has been used to good effect for decades is better than one with reported (and I'm confident the IMO requires reporting and inspection of compliance with the new drill in order to determine its effectiveness, prior to approval) and go with one that has spotty effectiveness at best.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

It has always been my position that the passenger muster is far more for the benefit of the crew than the passengers.  

 

The clearing of the ship during disembarkation is done electronically, by key card swipes at the gangway.  And, the vast majority of those who would be training on clearing the ship would be those who are scrambling to clean the cabins so the passengers don't complain about late sailings.  Also, kind of hard to simulate a search and clear exercise when other crew would be still running around the area, and with cleaning carts in the passageways.

 

And, again, having been in charge of and critiqued passenger muster drills, the only way, and only time that the vast choreography of the drill, that you don't see, because it goes on behind the flood of passengers, is the most efficient, and effective way to train.  I dread an actual emergency on a ship that has used the e-muster, and has a majority of crew that have never experienced the old muster, because I feel that it will lead to disaster.  Which is why, the IMO never amended SOLAS to allow the e-muster, and feel that a method that has been used to good effect for decades is better than one with reported (and I'm confident the IMO requires reporting and inspection of compliance with the new drill in order to determine its effectiveness, prior to approval) and go with one that has spotty effectiveness at best.

 

If training in clearing the ship is the objective, then there is no reason to report to the boat deck and stand there while participating in a lecture you cannot see or hear.  On our last RCCI cruise, before the COVID protocols, our muster station was the seating used for the diving exhibition.  We could see and hear the lecture.  We were told that if it was necessary to abandon the ship we would be guided by crew to the boat stations.

Second, it is often necessary to search the ship to locate certain passengers who are reluctant to leave the ship.

Third, you confirm my suspicions that returning to the old muster drill is driven by the need to observe/inspect the muster drill.  One wonders how many government/line inspectors are employed in that process. Of course these inspectors want to implement the old process, their jobs/reputations are at stake.  
BTW, I see you've dropped the argument that we have to do this because the Captain wants it.  Obviously, that isn't true since it's being implemented fleet wide and not at the whim of individual Captains.  Can you say government inspectors?

Now, the question still remains how can we improve the process other than using the passengers as training aids?

[RocketMan275]

11 hours ago, ontheweb said:

@chengkp75 has always said that it is important for the crew and for the passengers it is only for showing up and shutting up. If you had ever followed his posts, you would know that.

 Passengers are not training aids.  Figure out a better way.

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If training in clearing the ship is the objective, then there is no reason to report to the boat deck and stand there while participating in a lecture you cannot see or hear.  On our last RCCI cruise, before the COVID protocols, our muster station was the seating used for the diving exhibition.  We could see and hear the lecture.  We were told that if it was necessary to abandon the ship we would be guided by crew to the boat stations.

SOLAS requires that muster stations, on any ship, be "as close to the boats as practicable.  Older ships with larger promenade decks are required to have the muster stations on the boat deck.  When ships started to reduce the size of the promenade deck (to maximize revenue generating space inside the ship), muster stations were moved inside, because the promenade deck was not practicable.  IMO would prefer the stations at the boats, but have agreed to the indoor stations, provided they meet the various requirements of access, egress, structural fire protection, size, etc.

 

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Third, you confirm my suspicions that returning to the old muster drill is driven by the need to observe/inspect the muster drill.  One wonders how many government/line inspectors are employed in that process. Of course these inspectors want to implement the old process, their jobs/reputations are at stake. 

This is not what I said.  I said the inspectors were there to analyze the new system to determine its effectiveness. As any regulatory regime needs to be analyzed to see if proposed changes are beneficial or not. The old system was inspected by port state control officers, like the USCG maybe once a year.

 

11 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

BTW, I see you've dropped the argument that we have to do this because the Captain wants it.

I believe you've misrepresented this idea from another poster.

 

9 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

 Passengers are not training aids.  Figure out a better way.

But, since you feel it is not required for you to have any input into your own safety, I'll leave this argument here.  Here's a better way.  We take 2 hours out of the cruise, and hold a passenger muster drill prior to allowing boarding.  We hire 2000 people to come on and act as passengers.  The time comes out of your vacation, and the cost ups the cruise fare.

Edited November 25, 2022 by chengkp75

[RocketMan275]

42 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

SOLAS requires that muster stations, on any ship, be "as close to the boats as practicable.  Older ships with larger promenade decks are required to have the muster stations on the boat deck.  When ships started to reduce the size of the promenade deck (to maximize revenue generating space inside the ship), muster stations were moved inside, because the promenade deck was not practicable.  IMO would prefer the stations at the boats, but have agreed to the indoor stations, provided they meet the various requirements of access, egress, structural fire protection, size, etc.

 

This is not what I said.  I said the inspectors were there to analyze the new system to determine its effectiveness. As any regulatory regime needs to be analyzed to see if proposed changes are beneficial or not. The old system was inspected by port state control officers, like the USCG maybe once a year.

 

I believe you've misrepresented this idea from another poster.

 

But, since you feel it is not required for you to have any input into your own safety, I'll leave this argument here.  Here's a better way.  We take 2 hours out of the cruise, and hold a passenger muster drill prior to allowing boarding.  We hire 2000 people to come on and act as passengers.  The time comes out of your vacation, and the cost ups the cruise fare.

Just because IMO says so, isn't an argument that the old way is the best way. 

Having the muster station at the boats is a terrible idea since the passengers can be required to be at the muster station for a considerable period of time.  Great idea, keep older passengers standing in the rain and cold or exceedingly hot conditions is a receipe for disaster.  Clearly, if IMO can accept interior muster stations on some ships, there is no reason not to accept it on all ships.

There is no reason to hire passenger substitutes since we've agreed that the passengers get little of nothing from the old fashioned muster drill.  Nor, it seems does the crew get much from the drill since it has to be repeated every week. If this is a learning experience for the crew, it is a poor experience since there doesn't seem to be any retention of the learning.  

Imposing the old system is little more than giving into 'we've always done it this way'.   This is the sort of argument that appeals to the government agencies who are afraid of something new.

Clearly, the emuster works best for the passengers.  One wonders how valuable the old system training is for those crew at the boat stations.  Reading a prepared cue card doesn't require a lot of training.  Checking people in is the same process used at boarding and disembarkation.

[phoenix1181]

Can't believe this argument is still going on. 

 

Like it or not, it appears emuster is going away.  Arguing about what is most convenient for you (the passenger) isn't going to change that.  Getting your panties in a bunch isn't going to change it either so deal with it as required and then have a great cruise!

 

[ColeThornton]

1 minute ago, phoenix1181 said:

Can't believe this argument is still going on. 

 

 

I can.    lol