What nonsense is this? Missed Port

[ChiefMateJRK]

2 minutes ago, cruiseny4life said:

Here's an article with additional information, if you care that much. https://www.travelpulse.com/news/travel-agents/norwegian-cruise-line-joins-several-other-cruise-lines-with-new-ncf-policy.html

Thanks for the info but I don't care at all, as I never use a travel agent.  Just trying to clarify that port fees are in fact refunded, which that other poster claimed was incorrect.

[njhorseman]

58 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

Perhaps, the terminology differs between "port expenses" and "“Non-Commissionable Fee", or “NCF”" (as I wrote in my reply).  In my invoices I always see Fare Code Cruise Price, NFC, and Tax line items, and only the last item is refundable.  Maybe, in my invoices "port expenses" are hidden in the Tax line item (however, I know for sure that the Tax line on my invoices matches the amount displayed on cruise line web sites as "Tax" at the time of my booking).

 

NCF is Non Commissionable Fare. By law the cruise lines are not permitted to display this amount separately to the consumer so it is included in the fare total. They do break it out separately in their invoices to travel agents as it tells the travel agents how much of the fare they will not be paid commissions on. It can include any number of things that the cruise line is not required to disclose.

 

Unfortunately the law does not prohibit travel agents from removing the NCF from fare, which permits the more unscrupulous agencies to advertise "fare" that is lower than the passenger is actually going to pay. The passenger will then only know the actual fare they are paying after getting a bottom line fare quote from the agency that includes the NCF as well as the government taxes, fees and port expenses.

 

See the post just made by @cruiseny4lifethat has a link to an article on NCFs, and NCL's recent policy change on commissions. NCF is NOT port taxes or fees, and NCL will still not be paying commission on those.

 

 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

Thanks for the info but I don't care at all, as I never use a travel agent.  Just trying to clarify that port fees are in fact refunded, which that other poster claimed was incorrect.

Port fees absolutely are refunded by   NCL. 

[kirtihk]

13 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

This appears to differ from the recent experiences of many others.

I think you've confused port fees with this mysterious NCF which I've never heard of before.  Is this just a travel agent fee?

My NCL invoices have a single line item for "Gov Tax/Port Exp/Fees."

My agent doesn’t charge any fee for his agency (he is actually an owner of his company).  NCF is a fee cruise line collects - that’s why it is called Non-Commissional (an agent doesn’t get any  $$ from that amount the same way the agent doesn’t get $$ from Tax).

[kirtihk]

12 hours ago, njhorseman said:

 

NCF is Non Commissionable Fare. By law the cruise lines are not permitted to display this amount separately to the consumer so it is included in the fare total. They do break it out separately in their invoices to travel agents as it tells the travel agents how much of the fare they will not be paid commissions on. It can include any number of things that the cruise line is not required to disclose.

 

Unfortunately the law does not prohibit travel agents from removing the NCF from fare, which permits the more unscrupulous agencies to advertise "fare" that is lower than the passenger is actually going to pay. The passenger will then only know the actual fare they are paying after getting a bottom line fare quote from the agency that includes the NCF as well as the government taxes, fees and port expenses.

 

See the post just made by @cruiseny4lifethat has a link to an article on NCFs, and NCL's recent policy change on commissions. NCF is NOT port taxes or fees, and NCL will still not be paying commission on those.

 

 

I don’t understand “unfortunately” - to me it is an opposite: when I see all details of booking, it helps me to determine a real picture so to speak, and there is no any misleading information either - you see all numbers, and the total is what you pay if you are happy with it as a bottom line of an expense.

[njhorseman]

36 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

I don’t understand “unfortunately” - to me it is an opposite: when I see all details of booking, it helps me to determine a real picture so to speak, and there is no any misleading information either - you see all numbers, and the total is what you pay if you are happy with it as a bottom line of an expense.

So you think it's OK for some travel agencies to advertise misleading fares that deceive potential customers by appearing to offer a fare that is less than what they would pay if they booked directly with the cruise line or a different agency when in fact they're actually going to pay the same fare once the NCF is added on ?

 

Why shouldn't all sellers be required to play by the same rules ? 

 

[kirtihk]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

So you think it's OK for some travel agencies to advertise misleading fares that deceive potential customers by appearing to offer a fare that is less than what they would pay if they booked directly with the cruise line or a different agency when in fact they're actually going to pay the same fare once the NCF is added on ?

 

Why shouldn't all sellers be required to play by the same rules ? 

 

Again, I do not understand your statement: if an agent displays me 3 lines instead of 2, and the total is the same as book direct, what’s the difference? Unless you mean they show you just the first line without telling anything about other 2? Then it is a different story, but I was writing about detailed information, not purposely hiding the real total price.

[RocketMan275]

16 hours ago, ChiefMateJRK said:

This appears to differ from the recent experiences of many others.

I think you've confused port fees with this mysterious NCF which I've never heard of before.  Is this just a travel agent fee?

It works this way.  The cruise lines pay TA a commission on the far of cruise the TA sells.

Suppose the commision rate is 10%, and the fare is $1000.  One would think the TA commission is $100 but it isn't.  The cruise line only pays commission on a portion of the fare.  The difference between the fare and the amount the cruise line pays commission on is the NCF.  If the NCT is $100, then the cruise line calculates the TA commission only on the $1000 fare minus the $100 NCF. IOW, the TA commission is $90, not $100.  

For what it's worth, my TA invoice identifies the NCF as a specific amount.

The NCF does not increase or decrease the amount paid by the passenger.  In this case, that would be $1000 (unless of course the TA discounts the price she charges the passenger ad mine does).

[RocketMan275]

15 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Unfortunately the law does not prohibit travel agents from removing the NCF from fare, which permits the more unscrupulous agencies to advertise "fare" that is lower than the passenger is actually going to pay. The passenger will then only know the actual fare they are paying after getting a bottom line fare quote from the agency that includes the NCF as well as the government taxes, fees and port expenses.

The NCF only afffects the commission recieved by the TA.

It does not increase or reduce the fare paid by the passenger to either the cruise line or the TA.

Nor does the NCF affect the price quoted by the TA (before TA discounts).

[ontheweb]

31 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The NCF only afffects the commission recieved by the TA.

It does not increase or reduce the fare paid by the passenger to either the cruise line or the TA.

Nor does the NCF affect the price quoted by the TA (before TA discounts).

And it is a rather simple concept, so I do not understand how some are not understanding.

 

I always get a bottom line from our TA. I think when we got an invoice it used to break things out like NCF. But, I guess he stopped doing that as the one on our cruise for next summer does not break it out.

[RocketMan275]

26 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And it is a rather simple concept, so I do not understand how some are not understanding.

 

I always get a bottom line from our TA. I think when we got an invoice it used to break things out like NCF. But, I guess he stopped doing that as the one on our cruise for next summer does not break it out.

Some enjoy 'not understanding'.

Sometimes my TA invoice identifies NCF, sometimes not.

Doesn't really matter one way or the other.

[cruisinpips]

From the NCL contract….see last sentence

 

) At all times the Master (whether acting alone or on advice from others) has liberty to direct the movements of the ship, including the right to proceed without pilots and tow. The ship also has liberty to deviate from the advertised route and/or timetable , and to call or omit, advance or delay calling at any port or place to tow and assist vessels and to offer or render assistance to preserve life or property or for any other reason or purpose which in the judgment of the Master of the ship (whether alone or acting on advice from others) is reasonable including, but not limited to, weather conditions, operational matters, the medical condition of anyone on board, the safety, comfort or convenience of guests and any measures, actions, precautions or requirements which may have been introduced as result of COVID-19, or any other health emergency. Such deviation shall not give rise to any liability on our part and shall not represent a significant change to the holiday.

[njhorseman]

3 hours ago, kirtihk said:

Again, I do not understand your statement: if an agent displays me 3 lines instead of 2, and the total is the same as book direct, what’s the difference? Unless you mean they show you just the first line without telling anything about other 2? Then it is a different story, but I was writing about detailed information, not purposely hiding the real total price.

I am talking about advertising, not what eventually appears on your invoice. If a cruise line advertises a fare of $599 that includes $100 of NCF...remembering that the cruise must include the $100 in its ad...why should a travel agency be permitted to advertise the fare as $499 ? 

 

That misleading ad will make you think that agency discounts fares when it doesn't and make you more likely to go to their website to shop for a cruise.

 

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

The NCF only afffects the commission recieved by the TA.

It does not increase or reduce the fare paid by the passenger to either the cruise line or the TA.

Nor does the NCF affect the price quoted by the TA (before TA discounts).

 

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

And it is a rather simple concept, so I do not understand how some are not understanding.

 

I always get a bottom line from our TA. I think when we got an invoice it used to break things out like NCF. But, I guess he stopped doing that as the one on our cruise for next summer does not break it out.

 

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

Some enjoy 'not understanding'.

Sometimes my TA invoice identifies NCF, sometimes not.

Doesn't really matter one way or the other.

I used to own a travel agency so I know the games played by some agencies.

 

It's a matter of advertising that is done to attract your business. If a cruise line advertises a $599 fare that by law must include the NCF...let's say the NCF is $100...why should a travel agency be permitted to advertise the same cruise for $499 to make you think they're discounting the fare when if fact they're not.

It's an attempt to lure you to their site using misleading information.

 

[RocketMan275]

29 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

It's a matter of advertising that is done to attract your business. If a cruise line advertises a $599 fare that by law must include the NCF...let's say the NCF is $100...why should a travel agency be permitted to advertise the same cruise for $499 to make you think they're discounting the fare when if fact they're not.

It's an attempt to lure you to their site using misleading information.

My TA doesn't use such misleading tactics.  

She include NCF in her quotes.

She quotes the same fare as the cruise line

Then she applies an 8% discount and that is what I pay.

So she is truly discounting the price I pay.

Meanwhile, the cruise line use such disreputable tactics as BOGOHO gimicks.  

 

I really don't understand the issue here.  NCF is a part of the fare, the part that the cruise line doesn't pay the TA a commission on.  It's still a part of the fare.  NCF is between the cruise line and the TA.  No one else needs to consider it.

Edited December 17, 2022 by RocketMan275

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

Some enjoy 'not understanding'.

Sometimes my TA invoice identifies NCF, sometimes not.

Doesn't really matter one way or the other.

Right, I am always given a bottom line before we either book or put a hold on a cruise. Later, I may or may not see the NCF, but it really does not matter.

[AnitaVacation]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:11 PM, njhorseman said:

Port fees absolutely are refunded by   NCL. 

Unless you were on the Getaway Nov 28- Dec 8 sailing 😉 

On 12/17/2022 at 10:02 AM, cruisinpips said:

From the NCL contract….see last sentence

 

) At all times the Master (whether acting alone or on advice from others) has liberty to direct the movements of the ship, including the right to proceed without pilots and tow. The ship also has liberty to deviate from the advertised route and/or timetable , and to call or omit, advance or delay calling at any port or place to tow and assist vessels and to offer or render assistance to preserve life or property or for any other reason or purpose which in the judgment of the Master of the ship (whether alone or acting on advice from others) is reasonable including, but not limited to, weather conditions, operational matters, the medical condition of anyone on board, the safety, comfort or convenience of guests and any measures, actions, precautions or requirements which may have been introduced as result of COVID-19, or any other health emergency. Such deviation shall not give rise to any liability on our part and shall not represent a significant change to the holiday.

I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact that ships can cancel, change, deviate any ports at any time...happens all the time... 

The issue here is why do most ships refund port fees (and sometimes even more) for missed ports and now suddenly, without explanation, we get 'no refund for you!'.... 

One of the passengers that was also on this ship, is currently on the Escape which also missed PP and went to AC..AND were given obc for the inconvenience... ???

The baffling part is... why no explanation??  If indeed it was because they undercharged port fees, why not just say so?? 

[njhorseman]

32 minutes ago, AnitaVacation said:

Unless you were on the Getaway Nov 28- Dec 8 sailing 😉 

I don't think anyone here is disputing the fact that ships can cancel, change, deviate any ports at any time...happens all the time... 

The issue here is why do most ships refund port fees (and sometimes even more) for missed ports and now suddenly, without explanation, we get 'no refund for you!'.... 

One of the passengers that was also on this ship, is currently on the Escape which also missed PP and went to AC..AND were given obc for the inconvenience... ???

The baffling part is... why no explanation??  If indeed it was because they undercharged port fees, why not just say so?? 

You quoted my statement "Port fees absolutely are refunded by NCL" completely out of context. My statement was answering a question about what charges are refunded by NCL when you, the passenger, cancel a cruise after final payment. It had absolutely nothing to do with what NCL might or might not refund in the event of a port of call being cancelled.

Edited December 18, 2022 by njhorseman

[AnitaVacation]

28 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

You quoted my statement "Port fees absolutely are refunded by NCL" completely out of context. 

I quoted it as it stood.... I thought this thread was about port fees and port cancelations... seems to have been hijacked and taken in a totally different direction... (like I should be surprised by that) 🙄

[njhorseman]

14 minutes ago, AnitaVacation said:

I quoted it as it stood.... I thought this thread was about port fees and port cancelations... seems to have been hijacked and taken in a totally different direction... (like I should be surprised by that) 🙄

You quoted it out of the context of the question that it was answering.

Because the thread is about port fee refunds the question was also asked about whether port fees are refunded when the passenger cancels the cruise.

You can't take one sentence that's posted in the middle of a long thread that's been active for over a week and assume it's exactly about the topic of the original post. If a poster asks a related question it deserves to be answered.

Only the board moderator gets to determine whether a tangent taken on a thread is too far off topic. It's not your call.

Edited December 18, 2022 by njhorseman

[zqvol]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:11 PM, njhorseman said:

Port fees absolutely are refunded by   NCL. 

Maybe, it all depends. sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.

[njhorseman]

Just now, zqvol said:

Maybe, it all depends. sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.

Have you read the immediately preceeding discussion? I'll state once more that the quote  you're citing was not in response to a question about whether NCL refunds port charges for a missed port call. It was in reply to a question about whether NCL refunds port charges when a passenger cancels their cruise after final payment. 

NCL absolutely does and in fact I just had to cancel two cruises after final payment due date and I received 100% of my taxes and port charges back as well as my free at sea gratuities.  I've had to do this a couple of times over the years and have always received a refund of my port charges, even if I was not due one penny of refunds on the fare.

[akny]

Just got off the Encore 5 day trip. The itinerary completely changed. Went back to islands I visited last time and visited none the reason I signed up. I get it that there is no compensation but this totally sucks. Good learnings here though. Never use cruise to go to a destination you want to e.g. this would suck 10X if it would have happened on a European trip. 

[kitkat343]

38 minutes ago, akny said:

Just got off the Encore 5 day trip. The itinerary completely changed. Went back to islands I visited last time and visited none the reason I signed up. I get it that there is no compensation but this totally sucks. Good learnings here though. Never use cruise to go to a destination you want to e.g. this would suck 10X if it would have happened on a European trip. 

What were the changes?  So sorry that happened.

[Shidah]

PP and AC....if you mean Puerto Plata and Amber Cove, they are 20 minutes apart and regularly changed out for each other since the beginning of the year.  Why would any refund or OBC be needed for inconvenience?  It doesn’t affect excursions at all.