Muster Drill Question

[zqvol]

34 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Fine, but there are better ways to do it than standing under a lifeboat.  

I have had over 10 NCL cruises, all pre pandemic, and never once have we stood near a life boat. Muster drills were always held at the muster station, at least on GEm, dawn, and Getaway. Is going outside something that they have changed or are you just speculating based on what other lines do?

Or as the Chief says have you just been on older ships with large promenade decks and that is why you have been outside?

Edited January 20, 2023 by zqvol

[www3traveler]

27 minutes ago, zqvol said:

I have had over 10 NCL cruises, all pre pandemic, and never once have we stood near a life boat. Muster drills were always held at the muster station, at least on GEm, dawn, and Getaway. Is going outside something that they have changed or are you just speculating based on what other lines do?

Or as the Chief says have you just been on older ships with large promenade decks and that is why you have been outside?

I am only aware of two maybe three ships where Drills are outside under the lifeboats: The Spirit, The Sun and maybe The Sky.  Someone just posted a few days ago the Drill done outside on The Spirit.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Fine.  Then they should stop passengers from embarking until the cabins have been turned (freeing up the crew for a drill), and then taking the time to have the evacuation drill (searching every cabin and public space (which is what is happening while you are standing at muster)), and only then allow new passengers to board.  That removes you from being a training aid for the crew, but it also does not train you in what to do when trying to get to your station with thousands of others trying to get to theirs.

The crew gets ample training in searching each and every space while getting the ship to zero status.

The passengers can get training in moving to a muster station that isn't under a lifeboat such as the theater, etc.

Can  you explain the training value of listening when you can't hear what's being said.

Can you explain the training value of watching a demonstration that you cannot see.

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time in adverse weather while they're standing under a lifeboat?

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time without food, water , or access to a bathroom while standing under a lifeboat?

Use you imagination, come up with a better way.

[RocketMan275]

33 minutes ago, zqvol said:

I have had over 10 NCL cruises, all pre pandemic, and never once have we stood near a life boat. Muster drills were always held at the muster station, at least on GEm, dawn, and Getaway. Is going outside something that they have changed or are you just speculating based on what other lines do?

Or as the Chief says have you just been on older ships with large promenade decks and that is why you have been outside?

My only experience with NCL was last March on Breakaway where the muster only required you to report to your muster station where your card was scanned and having to watch the muster video.  I got as much out of that as I've gotten from the older types of muster drills.

 

[Laszlo]

We just did the E Muster on the Getaway 1-8 sailing. Easy peasy, our check in took all of 5 seconds just after boarding on the way up to the Haven

[chengkp75]

14 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The crew gets ample training in searching each and every space while getting the ship to zero status.

Uh, no they don't.  First off, the zero count is primarily done by the card readers at the gangway, and only when there are holdouts are a few crew sent to search those particular cabins or public spaces.  The search during muster is done, primarily by crew who are cleaning cabins during the zero count process (so not available for the search), and is done in a systematic way, and recorded for each space, and then the teams close down each deck as they go.  It is a far more complex thing than ensuring that all passengers have left the ship at the end of the cruise.

 

18 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The passengers can get training in moving to a muster station that isn't under a lifeboat such as the theater, etc.

As noted, unless you can obtain the votes of the majority of SOLAS signatory nations, you aren't going to change the requirement to have muster locations as close to the boats as possible, which means if possible, under the lifeboats.

 

19 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Can  you explain the training value of listening when you can't hear what's being said.

Can you explain the training value of watching a demonstration that you cannot see.

Most of the noise comes from passengers.  While the information passed at the drill is important, it is not essential, and is more a way of filling the time until the muster/search operation is complete.  They could just as easily not show or announce anything, and really have you just stand around.  SOLAS allows for the safety information to be on the ship's TV system, even with the old muster drills.

 

22 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time in adverse weather while they're standing under a lifeboat?

If needed, once the passengers are all accounted for at their muster stations, they can be moved to other locations, called alternate muster locations, which are also used if the primary location is not usable, due to the emergency.  This applies to whether or not the primary station is indoors or outdoors.  The Star Princess fire had the passengers mustered for many hours outside on the promenade deck.

 

24 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time without food, water , or access to a bathroom while standing under a lifeboat?

You know what?  One aspect of the muster drill that you don't see, so you obviously don't think it happens, is the members of the crew that are assigned to teams that are designated to provide blankets, water, and medical attention.  You can't go a couple of hours without eating something?  Really?  But, those crew can provide food as required, to those who really need it.  Where are you going to go to the bathroom on a lifeboat?  And, having a muster in a theater, do you think they will just let folks go get food, water, or the bathroom, as they feel the need?

 

The major concept you don't seem to get, is that the muster drill, or an emergency situation on the ship, is about saving your life, not about your comfort.  I really pray that you don't find yourself in a real emergency on a ship, given your demonstrated concern for comfort over safety.

[RocketMan275]

8 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The major concept you don't seem to get, is that the muster drill, or an emergency situation on the ship, is about saving your life, not about your comfort.  I really pray that you don't find yourself in a real emergency on a ship, given your demonstrated concern for comfort over safety.

Oh, but I do get that it's about saving lives.  I want a better way than standing on an exposed promenade deck participating in clearly ineffective lectures and demonstrations.

[wolft927]

23 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The crew gets ample training in searching each and every space while getting the ship to zero status.

The passengers can get training in moving to a muster station that isn't under a lifeboat such as the theater, etc.

Can  you explain the training value of listening when you can't hear what's being said.

Can you explain the training value of watching a demonstration that you cannot see.

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time in adverse weather while they're standing under a lifeboat?

Can you explain how you're going to keep passengers for long periods of time without food, water , or access to a bathroom while standing under a lifeboat?

Use you imagination, come up with a better way.

Lol, long period of time without food or water? Pretty sure everyone can make it max 30 minutes without food or water! Also like I stated before, worked onboard chips for 5 years, and the entire announcement during the drill comes directly from the bridge over every single speaker on the entire ship, including inside your cabins. If you can’t hear then that means your muster station is not being quiet. 

[wolft927]

15 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Oh, but I do get that it's about saving lives.  I want a better way than standing on an exposed promenade deck participating in clearly ineffective lectures and demonstrations.

Maybe go back to the days of the Titanic and ensure music is being played as well as drinks being served. Again, unless you have worked onboard a Cruise ship or Vessel that size . You never see what and why they are done 

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, wolft927 said:

Lol, long period of time without food or water? Pretty sure everyone can make it max 30 minutes without food or water! Also like I stated before, worked onboard chips for 5 years, and the entire announcement during the drill comes directly from the bridge over every single speaker on the entire ship, including inside your cabins. If you can’t hear then that means your muster station is not being quiet. 

You are trivilizing my points.

It's not the 30 minutes required by the muster drill.   It's the fact that if there were an emergency, passengers might be kept at the muster station for a period of time considerably longer than 30 minutes.

I can certainly hear the call to muster.  I thought I was clear that my complaints (which have been vocalized by others) that the briefing given at the muster station cannot often be heard.  Nor can the life jacket demonstration be seen.  If you can't see or hear it, what purpose does it serve?

 

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

Maybe go back to the days of the Titanic and ensure music is being played as well as drinks being served. Again, unless you have worked onboard a Cruise ship or Vessel that size . You never see what and why they are done 

Maybe come into the 21st century and provide some useful training.  BTW, I've been responsible for training many people in the military.  If I had conducted training in the manner I've observed during muster drills, I would have been seriously 'counseled'.

[wolft927]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

You are trivilizing my points.

It's not the 30 minutes required by the muster drill.   It's the fact that if there were an emergency, passengers might be kept at the muster station for a period of time considerably longer than 30 minutes.

I can certainly hear the call to muster.  I thought I was clear that my complaints (which have been vocalized by others) that the briefing given at the muster station cannot often be heard.  Nor can the life jacket demonstration be seen.  If you can't see or hear it, what purpose does it serve?

 

First of all muster stations are exactly what they are a place for everyone to muster in an emergency event. Most muster stations are inside lounges restaurants theaters etc…in the event that the Captain issues the abandoned ship order, you will then be escorted to your lifeboat. I know there are some ships that still have muster stations out on deck, but it isn’t the norm anymore. 

[wolft927]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

Maybe come into the 21st century and provide some useful training.  BTW, I've been responsible for training many people in the military.  If I had conducted training in the manner I've observed during muster drills, I would have been seriously 'counseled'.

A muster drill is not formalized training in a military setting, it is the very basic where to go and when to go and how to put on a life jacket. 

[RocketMan275]

Just now, wolft927 said:

First of all muster stations are exactly what they are a place for everyone to muster in an emergency event. Most muster stations are inside lounges restaurants theaters etc…in the event that the Captain issues the abandoned ship order, you will then be escorted to your lifeboat. I know there are some ships that still have muster stations out on deck, but it isn’t the norm anymore. 

Fine, what comments have I made that were not directed towards muster stations that are on deck.

Still, if the muster stations are in lounges, etc., then why isn't the combination of having passengers report to those stations, having their cards scanned and then allowed to leave sufficient?

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Maybe come into the 21st century and provide some useful training.  BTW, I've been responsible for training many people in the military.  If I had conducted training in the manner I've observed during muster drills, I would have been seriously 'counseled'.

And, if the passengers had been in the military, they would have acted differently, or they would have been "counseled".  You must have trained personnel to "deal with what you've got", or to "adapt to the situation at hand", and when you've got 2000 "cats" to herd, many of whom are non-compliant, and who are not your subordinates or employees, you work with what you've got.

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, wolft927 said:

A muster drill is not formalized training in a military setting, it is the very basic where to go and when to go and how to put on a life jacket. 

Then explain why:

- reporting to your station, having your card scanned doesn't provide adequate training on 'where to go' and 'when to go'.

- why isn't watching a video offer sufficient training on how to put on a life jacket?  At least in the military you would have to demonstrate proficiency by actually put one on.

[wolft927]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

Then explain why:

- reporting to your station, having your card scanned doesn't provide adequate training on 'where to go' and 'when to go'.

- why isn't watching a video offer sufficient training on how to put on a life jacket?  At least in the military you would have to demonstrate proficiency by actually put one on.

Blame the United States Coast guard and Maritime law. You think cruise lines want to shut down bar service and revenue generating outlets for 30 minutes ? 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Fine, what comments have I made that were not directed towards muster stations that are on deck.

Still, if the muster stations are in lounges, etc., then why isn't the combination of having passengers report to those stations, having their cards scanned and then allowed to leave sufficient?

Surely, any training in the military is based on the "train how you fight" principal?  I know that the training I received in the Navy was such.  Having people wander into the muster location, over several hours, is not really indicative of how this would happen for real, now is it?

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

And, if the passengers had been in the military, they would have acted differently, or they would have been "counseled".  You must have trained personnel to "deal with what you've got", or to "adapt to the situation at hand", and when you've got 2000 "cats" to herd, many of whom are non-compliant, and who are not your subordinates or employees, you work with what you've got.

Fine but the old fashioned muster drill doesn't teach the cats how to be compliant. 

[chengkp75]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

Fine but the old fashioned muster drill doesn't teach the cats how to be compliant. 

No, but it trains the crew in how to handle the non-compliant (read panicked in real emergency) cats.

[wolft927]

This will always be a topic people don’t like to do on vacation on a cruise, but facts are facts it’s the law and the cruise lines must comply. Don’t like the 30 minutes then don’t go on a cruise. 

[wolft927]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

No, but it trains the crew in how to handle the non-compliant (read panicked in real emergency) cats.

Absolutely correct! This is as much for the crew as it is for the passengers.  Not to mention the crew is required to do a crew only drill ever 7 days. Stay on board for one of those and see how the crew act for them. Staff Captains onboard would lose there mind if they weren’t taken seriously 

[RocketMan275]

Just now, chengkp75 said:

No, but it trains the crew in how to handle the non-compliant (read panicked in real emergency) cats.

There are better ways to do that.  Certain crew members could be designated/trained to act in a non-complaint manner during training exercises.  This could be done on port days.  Much better than random misbehaving passengers during a muster drill.

[zqvol]

4 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

There are better ways to do that.  Certain crew members could be designated/trained to act in a non-complaint manner during training exercises.  This could be done on port days.  Much better than random misbehaving passengers during a muster drill.

There aren’t extra crew to train to act that way, they all have duties.  

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, wolft927 said:

This will always be a topic people don’t like to do on vacation on a cruise, but facts are facts it’s the law and the cruise lines must comply. Don’t like the 30 minutes then don’t go on a cruise. 

Simply stating this is the law is no excuse.   Enhancing passenger safety should always be an objective of paramount importance.  Why not change the laws if there are better ways?

Just now, wolft927 said:

Absolutely correct! This is as much for the crew as it is for the passengers.  Not to mention the crew is required to do a crew only drill ever 7 days. Stay on board for one of those and see how the crew act for them. Staff Captains onboard would lose there mind if they weren’t taken seriously 

 

Then train the crews but there is no excuse for using passengers as training aides for the crew.

 

I am taking the muster drill seriously, that's why I'm pointing out the fact that the old under the lifeboat drills are ineffective and do not provide good traing for the passengers.