Nastygram from Antorcha's liaison

[Florida_gal_50]

5 hours ago, ldtr said:

A material complaint that there are children on board. That in the opinion of the complainer were causing problems because they were in the various venues.

 

HAL did not paper their response over any thing they were very clear they are not going to restrict the booking of children and the role of parents.

 

I have been far more annoyed by adults, including elderly adults subjecting me to telephones calls and video calls in public forums at high volume, as well as the playing of music and videos also at high volume.  After a cruise and spending a few hours in the crows nest I can probably tell you the medical condition and a lot of very personal details of several passengers just because of the loud phones calls that adults, who should know better, make.

 

Quite often if children are causing a problem the rest of their family is as well, even if the children are not there.

The only people I ever see doing that is people that look to me like they are in their 30's and 40's.  Pretty sure none of them know you can put the phone to your ear.  I'll never know why everyone wants the world to know their business

[Florida_gal_50]

20 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

No, you did not read this particular issue.

 

 Material complaint: cabanas were restricted to two adults per unit or four adults per family unit according to their own promotional material and pricing. 

 

It was known there would be many children on board during the Holidays. This made the choice of the expected adults-only premium charge Retreat Cabanas a very valued option when in fact it was known there would be many children on board.

 

I could be pool side with noisy kids for free on that cruise. So in this case, the cost of a the private adults only Retreat Cabana was good money down the drain.  I contend this is a material complaint. 

 

Thanks for trying. 

I've rented a lot of cabanas in my time and thankfully none have turned out this way. In November there was a family with grandparents about 6 altogether in regular cabana but hal made short work of that.  Also a time when 32 people rented a cabana but it was fine because they weren't up there all at once (sarcastic). Hal needs to grow a pair and enforce what they say.

[BetsyS.]

ldtr - I have heard adults talking loudly on their cell phones in a public forum. 

They were calling the cat sitter back home. They named every cat and asked the 

sitter what each cat had to eat, blah, blah, blah.  I was in the Dutch Cafe trying 

to relax. I did not need to hear all that chatter. The call should have been made 

from their cabin.

[Florida_gal_50]

47 minutes ago, BetsyS. said:

ldtr - I have heard adults talking loudly on their cell phones in a public forum. 

They were calling the cat sitter back home. They named every cat and asked the 

sitter what each cat had to eat, blah, blah, blah.  I was in the Dutch Cafe trying 

to relax. I did not need to hear all that chatter. The call should have been made 

from their cabin.

That’s always what the discussions are about.  It’s never anything important.  When I’m scrolling thru my phone and all of a sudden there is some loud music or talking I’m mortified.  For some that seems to be a badge of honour for some.  I put heavy value on peace and quiet and it seems impossible to achieve most of the time.

[iceman93]

3 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 Material complaint: cabanas were restricted to two adults per unit or four adults per family unit according to their own promotional material and pricing. 

@OlsSalt, your complaint is valid for sure.  You paid extra for what HAL advertised as a quiet escape, and other guests ruined that.  Then HAL didn't do the right thing, which would have been to apologize, refund your money, and enforce their own rules by cracking down on the other guests.  If they weren't willing to crack down (because it sounds like, from your reports, these annoying guests were somehow "VIPs"), then they still should have apologized and refunded your money.

 

But what happened to you, while it did involve unruly children, isn't really about children.  It's about rude, self-entitled, rule-breaking guests.  One could assume, for example, that they were also consuming copious amounts of alcohol.  But it wouldn't be right to say HAL shouldn't serve drinks, or that they shouldn't allow alcohol in The Retreat.  So please stop bringing this story up in every thread about children on HAL--you have my full sympathy for what happened on your cruise, but you chip away at it a bit every time you bring it up in a thread that complains about children on cruise ships.

[XLVIII]

47 minutes ago, iceman93 said:

@OlsSalt, your complaint is valid for sure.  You paid extra for what HAL advertised as a quiet escape, and other guests ruined that.  Then HAL didn't do the right thing, which would have been to apologize, refund your money, and enforce their own rules by cracking down on the other guests.  If they weren't willing to crack down (because it sounds like, from your reports, these annoying guests were somehow "VIPs"), then they still should have apologized and refunded your money.

 

But what happened to you, while it did involve unruly children, isn't really about children.  It's about rude, self-entitled, rule-breaking guests.  One could assume, for example, that they were also consuming copious amounts of alcohol.  But it wouldn't be right to say HAL shouldn't serve drinks, or that they shouldn't allow alcohol in The Retreat.  So please stop bringing this story up in every thread about children on HAL--you have my full sympathy for what happened on your cruise, but you chip away at it a bit every time you bring it up in a thread that complains about children on cruise ships.

This sums it up PERFECTLY. Thank you. 

[lissie]

4 hours ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

The only people I ever see doing that is people that look to me like they are in their 30's and 40's.  Pretty sure none of them know you can put the phone to your ear.  I'll never know why everyone wants the world to know their business

You haven't travelled much with old people then. Was quietly doing some work in a (closed) bar on a different cruise line and a 80+ yo sat down quite close to me and then had a very loud on speaker phone conversation with her travel agent which included her complains about medical conditions (which were utterly irrelevant too) . Went on for 20 minutes 

[OlsSalt]

iceman, the issue is HAL not enforcing their own promised regulations, to the detriment of materially and specifically affected passengers. That was the only point of contention.  

 

Should anyone be able to access  Club Orange? Should anyone access the Neptune Lounge? Put my ow Cabana incident in that same category.

 

Not good policy for HAL to be arbitrarily selective in some reserved space  cases, and abide by promised regulations in others. 

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

No, you did not read this particular issue.

 

 Material complaint: cabanas were restricted to two adults per unit or four adults per family unit according to their own promotional material and pricing. 

 

It was known there would be many children on board during the Holidays. This made the choice of the expected adults-only premium charge Retreat Cabanas a very valued option when in fact it was known there would be many children on board.

 

I could be pool side with noisy kids for free on that cruise. So in this case, the cost of a the private adults only Retreat Cabana was good money down the drain.  I contend this is a material complaint. 

 

Thanks for trying. 

That was your issue, I was referring to the issue raised by the OP and the HAL response.

 

According to your own post you gave up and did not continue to pursue the issue higher up the management chain so we do not know what their response would be for your issue.

[Guest ldtr]

3 hours ago, iceman93 said:

@OlsSalt, your complaint is valid for sure.  You paid extra for what HAL advertised as a quiet escape, and other guests ruined that.  Then HAL didn't do the right thing, which would have been to apologize, refund your money, and enforce their own rules by cracking down on the other guests.  If they weren't willing to crack down (because it sounds like, from your reports, these annoying guests were somehow "VIPs"), then they still should have apologized and refunded your money.

 

But what happened to you, while it did involve unruly children, isn't really about children.  It's about rude, self-entitled, rule-breaking guests.  One could assume, for example, that they were also consuming copious amounts of alcohol.  But it wouldn't be right to say HAL shouldn't serve drinks, or that they shouldn't allow alcohol in The Retreat.  So please stop bringing this story up in every thread about children on HAL--you have my full sympathy for what happened on your cruise, but you chip away at it a bit every time you bring it up in a thread that complains about children on cruise ships.

I would agree that HAL should have allowed them to cancel and refund the unused portion when they requested.

 

If HAL enforced rules based upon each individual passengers interpretation no one would be allowed out of their cabins since everyone would offend someone in some fashion.

 

There is always the possibility that others might not have come to the same conclusion concerning the intensity of that incident. Apparently the HAL staff on that ship at that time did not.  I have seen adults in Cabanas on HAL ships also making noise, playing music  having loud conversations, etc.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by ldtr

[Florida_gal_50]

5 hours ago, lissie said:

You haven't travelled much with old people then. Was quietly doing some work in a (closed) bar on a different cruise line and a 80+ yo sat down quite close to me and then had a very loud on speaker phone conversation with her travel agent which included her complains about medical conditions (which were utterly irrelevant too) . Went on for 20 minutes 

I sail on hal 🤣.  I’m usually the youngest one there and I’m no spring chicken.  As the saying goes old people sail on Princess.  Their parents sail on hal.

[Florida_gal_50]

3 hours ago, ldtr said:

That was your issue, I was referring to the issue raised by the OP and the HAL response.

 

According to your own post you gave up and did not continue to pursue the issue higher up the management chain so we do not know what their response would be for your issue.

I always find it interesting that it’s assumed the higher ups are just waiting for people to come in so they can solve their problems.  I’ve experienced and seen enough to know that it’s not true.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

I sail on hal 🤣.  I’m usually the youngest one there and I’m no spring chicken.  As the saying goes old people sail on Princess.  Their parents sail on hal.

Not so much anymore. HAL is getting younger and Princess demographics older.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, Florida_gal_50 said:

I always find it interesting that it’s assumed the higher ups are just waiting for people to come in so they can solve their problems.  I’ve experienced and seen enough to know that it’s not true.

Never said just waiting to solve problems. but making sure issues get resolved is part of any good management team as well working to make sure that as many of them are prevented from happening.

 

Resolving could be by a couple of different routes 1. What happened was in line with policy in which case no resolution needed  or 2. What happened was counter to policy and some action needed.

[OlsSalt]

3 hours ago, ldtr said:

 

 

Resolving could be by a couple of different routes 1. What happened was in line with policy in which case no resolution needed  or 2. What happened was counter to policy and some action needed.

 

 

You inadvertently hit on the key issue why we chose to let our own negative Retreat Cabana experience go, take our lumps and learn from this experience ........ in line .............not wanting to waste another moment .....standing in line.... to escalate the issue.

 

The front desk lines on this cruise were daunting, and that was just to get Navigator working. Hassles at the Retreat Cabana vs hassles trying to get resolution. Not our idea of a "vacation". So we punted. 

 

Bottom line: when HAL offers a "reserved space" for an additional premium surcharge, keep  mutual expectations clear and honored. Or else, immediately offer a refund.

[Guest ldtr]

34 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

 

You inadvertently hit on the key issue why we chose to let our own negative Retreat Cabana experience go, take our lumps and learn from this experience ........ in line .............not wanting to waste another moment .....standing in line.... to escalate the issue.

 

The front desk lines on this cruise were daunting, and that was just to get Navigator working. Hassles at the Retreat Cabana vs hassles trying to get resolution. Not our idea of a "vacation". So we punted. 

 

Bottom line: when HAL offers a "reserved space" for an additional premium surcharge, keep  mutual expectations clear and honored. Or else, immediately offer a refund.

If the terms you agreed with stated that the reservation was not refundable then you agreed  that any refund decision was totally at the determination of the cruise line. And apparently the personnel you did raise the issue with did not agree with your evaluation of the situation.

 

So at that point it was not mutual in that either party could trigger the refund, but was mutual in the sense that both parties had to agree and clearly one did not.

[OlsSalt]

Just now, ldtr said:

If the terms you agreed with stated that the reservation was not refundable then you agreed  that any refund decision was totally at the determination of the cruise line. And apparently the personnel you did raise the issue with did not agree with your evaluation of the situation.

 

So at that point it was not mutual in that either party could trigger the refund, but was mutual in the sense that both parties had to agree and clearly one did not.

 

You materially err. Cabana staff admitted it was a breach of expectations, but asked us to deal with it.   Where do you really want  to go with this discussion, since you keep introducing new and non-factual elements?

[cruisemom42]

8 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

You materially err. Cabana staff admitted it was a breach of expectations, but asked us to deal with it.   Where do you really want  to go with this discussion, since you keep introducing new and non-factual elements?

 

At the end of the day, yours is not the only reported "breach of expectations" ... for example, the cruiser who reported that loud music was allowed in the area despite repeated protests and attempts to get a resolution to the issue that upheld HAL's wording about the area being a "peaceful retreat".

 

Your posts come across as focusing on the miscreants (children) as opposed to on HAL management/staff, whose responsibility it squarely was to intervene in both cases (IMO). 

 

Selfish and entitled people on cruise ships -- not just HAL, and not just children -- are more common with each passing season. I think one needs to have the understanding that this can happen and either make the choice to pursue a solution OR drop the issue entirely and chalk it up to a learning experience. It does no one any good to pass up the chance to redress the issue and then to keep harping on it later...

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by cruisemom42

[OlsSalt]

14 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

At the end of the day, yours is not the only reported "breach of expectations" ... for example, the cruiser who reported that loud music was allowed in the area despite repeated protests and attempts to get a resolution to the issue that upheld HAL's wording about the area being a "peaceful retreat".

 

Your posts come across as focusing on the miscreants (children) as opposed to on HAL management/staff, whose responsibility it squarely was to intervene in both cases (IMO). 

 

Selfish and entitled people on cruise ships -- not just HAL, and not just children -- are more common with each passing season. I think one needs to have the understanding that this can happen and either make the choice to pursue a solution OR drop the issue entirely and chalk it up to a learning experience. It does no one any good to pass up the chance to redress the issue and then to keep harping on it later...

 

 

LOL. It just happened to be 8 people in a two person"adult" cabana, 6 of which happened to be children who were allowed to free range the common area. Plus, food orders for 8 people in a 2 person cabana did impact the service level for all other cabana guests at this end of the Retreat.

 

No point reading into this something that was not there. Carry on.

 

Shall I repeat this again for clarity: we knew there would be a lot of children on board - we have done holiday cruises in the past. They add a festive element to holiday cruises. But because of this known fact, we decided to rent a Retreat Cabana, so by choice and at a  cost premium, we could also have a quiet retreat adults space to use during that exact same holiday cruise.

 

Is this what you call "focusing on children as miscreants"?   It was the parents who ignored the rules, and somehow got priority treatment over the other Cabana guests who also were not happy with this unexpected 8 person family use of the adult-only cabana space. It was HAL's choice to give priority to the "miscreant" family. It wa our choice to walk away and not bother with further escalation.

 

Close to being done with this, but I do ask others to address the issues put into play here and not take these personal side line diversions of their own making. 

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

LOL. It just happened to be 8 people in a two person"adult" cabana, 6 of which happened to be children who were allowed to free range the common area. Plus, food orders for 8 people in a 2 person cabana did impact the service level for all other cabana guests at this end of the Retreat.

 

No point reading into this something that was not there. Carry on.

 

Shall I repeat this again for clarity: we knew there would be a lot of children on board - we have done holiday cruises in the past. They add a festive element to holiday cruises. But because of this known fact, we decided to rent a Retreat Cabana, so by choice and at a  cost premium, we could also have a quiet retreat adults space to use during that exact same holiday cruise.

 

Is this what you call "focusing on children as miscreants"?   It was the parents who ignored the rules, and somehow got priority treatment over the other Cabana guests who also were not happy with this unexpected 8 person family use of the adult-only cabana space. It was HAL's choice to give priority to the "miscreant" family. It wa our choice to walk away and not bother with further escalation.

 

Close to being done with this, but I do ask others to address the issues put into play here and not take these personal side line diversions of their own making. 

 

And yet you are posting this on a thread about kids onboard....

[OlsSalt]

17 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

And yet you are posting this on a thread about kids onboard....

 

The thread is about HAL's official response to a passenger complaint, as shown the title of this thread. Are we done with this?

[Florida_gal_50]

6 hours ago, ldtr said:

Never said just waiting to solve problems. but making sure issues get resolved is part of any good management team as well working to make sure that as many of them are prevented from happening.

 

Resolving could be by a couple of different routes 1. What happened was in line with policy in which case no resolution needed  or 2. What happened was counter to policy and some action needed.

You really don't have to break it out for me.  I think everyone should know that's part of a good management team.  Hal's practice is to pretend no problem exists in my experience.  Either that or its the customer that is causing the issue.

[Guest ldtr]

20 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

You materially err. Cabana staff admitted it was a breach of expectations, but asked us to deal with it.   Where do you really want  to go with this discussion, since you keep introducing new and non-factual elements?

What non factual elements

 

just to be clear. when you purchase cabana the term are non cancelable and non refundable. That is what I have seen when purchasing. So that would certainly seem to be factual.

 

Under those term you as the buyer cannot unilaterally decide to terminate the purchase and get a refund. So that would seem to be factual.

 

You yourself state that they would not issue a refund so that would seem to be factual.

 

You state that they agreed that it was a breech of expectations, but they did not issue a refund, so it appears that in their opinion it did not rise to the level to merit a refund

 

So exactly what non factual items are you referring to.

 

A breech of expectations is a rather funny, but pretty non-committal way to put things. Clearly your expectations were not met, but equally clearly the person that made that comment did not feel a refund was in order.

 

Pretty sure people here could list many things during their travels where expectations were not met, but were also not eligeable for refund. When an employee makes such a comment it is usually to show some sympathy when a customer does not like something, but where company procedures does not agree.

 

Pretty funny you had an employee that you could reference by name saying that your expectations were not met, but by your own comments did not pursue it further. Stating that you did not want to invest any more time in it. Yet you spend time bringing it up again and again.

 

Or was the matter one where the odds of success with such pursuit would have been low based upon your discussion with that employee.

Edited May 11, 2023 by ldtr

[SuzWillCruise]

I prefer to get what I pay for, so I like to think I would have followed up with a written request for fixing the issue, or a refund, and then disputed the charge once back on land.

 

And re some of the other rude behaviors mentioned on this thread …. I do admonish other people’s children. I don’t accept the premise that I must suffer to be polite. There’s nothing inherently polite about standing silently watching a child do something dangerous or destructive. Kids and parents get used to tuning each other out.  Hearing “stop that!” from a stranger can be more effective.

 

And chair hogs?  Well, if there are zero chairs available and zero people in the pool or at the bar, I will wait to see if the owners return for about 10-15 minutes. Then I plan on combing stuff, or taking stuff to a crew member as lost. Rudeness shouldn’t be rewarded.

 

 I once walked around for 30 minutes at a Disney quick service restaurant looking for a table. There were many tables with one person sitting at the table, no food, holding the table. I finally had to go outside where it was cold and rainy, and my food was cold by then, too. My blood sugar must have dropped because I almost burst into tears. My spouse got a cast member to replace my cold items with fresh hot ones, and I was finally able to eat.   Never again. If you are holding (wasting) a table while others in your party are in line, and tables are in short supply, be prepared to share. And I might not ask permission either.  I will sit far from you (1 person at an 8-top makes it easy), and eat my food quickly. I’ll probably be done before your party arrives. If not, there’s sure to be another under-used table I can finish my meal at.  
 

And yes, I have offered to share our table, or finished a meal more quickly, to allow others to sit and enjoy their meal.  
 

So, chair and table hogs, y’all have been warned!

[Colorado Klutch]

I agree HAL is not a daycare service.

No doubt about it, kids run around, scream, yell and annoy other passengers on cruise ships. Not much HAL can do about lousy parents who don't parent.

The one point HAL ignores is THEY SHOULD ENFORCE ADULTS ONLY AREA POLICIES! Why describe areas of the ship as "Adult" and not enforce them as adults only? 

 

As mentioned previously, you won't find kids running around in the casino. Why? Well, because the staff enforce the policy of the casino being an adults only area. There is no reason at all HAL can't enforce the same policies at the Retreat Cabanas and the aft pool area.

 

My brother and his wife recently returned from a Caribbean cruise aboard Nieuw Amsterdam. My brother said there were ALWAYS kids in the aft "Adult" pool. People always complained about it. Only once did a staff member politely ask the parent to take her kids to the other pool. Why is that so hard? Why is this a policy passengers are free to completely disregard with no consequences? 

Every excuse HAL or any other cruise line can offer is completely invalid because they enforce the adults only policy in the casino. This proves they can enforce the policy. They simply choose not to do so and it's completely unacceptable. Maybe adults should start hanging out at Club HAL. When the staff asks what they are doing, they can say, "Well, I went to the aft pool area and it was full of kids, so I'm coming to the kids area to hang out."

"We can't ban children from our cruises" is a strawman argument. The OP did not suggest HAL ban children.


 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Colorado Klutch