Nastygram from Antorcha's liaison

[ExpatBride]

Few children is one of the reasons I prefer HAL to other lines. Maybe I've been lucky, but the one time I encountered children on HAL (Baltics) being obnoxious, their grandmother (I assume) snapped them back in line and told me that if I should see them stepping out of line again, I had her permission to correct them. They were good as gold after that.

[Taters]

My husband, daughter (15 at the time - she's 33 now), and I cruised on the Island Princess over the Christmas and New Year holidays some years ago.  This was a 15 night cruise to Hawaii, r/t from Los Angeles.  We figured that there wouldn't be that many kids on board because of the length of the cruise.  Oh boy, were we wrong!  There were just over 600, and some of those kids were not nice or well behaved.  We have never considered another holiday cruise no matter what the length.  

 

My last cruise was on Oosterdam from Santiago, Chile to Ft. Lauderdale this past March/April, a 17 nighter.  There were 5 kids on board and they were very well behaved.  A much better experience.  Most of our HAL cruises have less than 20 kids on board.  I love kids, but I will not book a cruise when there might be more kids than the kids clubs can handle.  So no holidays, and no mid summer cruises.  The summer thing is not a problem for us because we live in Alaska, and it would be silly to leave at that time of year.

[cruisemom42]

500 kids is a lot. I honestly would doubt whether any cruise line or ship could effectively deal with so many. Even if you break kids facilities into 5 groups, that is 100 kids per group. Seems like more than most can take in.... And even on Royal Caribbean, that kiddie playground of the seas, younger children cannot avail themselves of things like the bumper cars or wave rider without adult supervision at least up to age 12, IIRC.

 

When my son was young and we used to sail Princess (his favorite line, despite NOT having climbing walls or bumper cars or wave riders), I remember at holiday times there were bookings that were actually refused because they had some kind of quota in place -- it had to do less with kids club capacity and more with safety (life jackets and places in lifeboats) or so we were told...

 

To get back to the OP's post, I think the letter was frank and honest but not what the poster wanted to hear. Yes, holiday bookings will have lots of kids and they're not going to turn them away.  Don't sail holidays or book longer cruises if you want to avoid kids. 

 

However, there is one point on which HAL needs to do a better job, and that is empowering their onboard personnel to ensure kids follow the rules and that parents take responsibility for them doing so.

 

 

[NavyCruiser]

Think everyone should change their tagline to:  

"We love kids,  just not when we're on our geriatric cruise..."

 

[ExpatBride]

19 minutes ago, NavyCruiser said:

Think everyone should change their tagline to:  

"We love kids,  just not when we're on our geriatric cruise..."

 

 

I don't love kids, that's why I go out of my way to avoid them.

[Florida_gal_50]

I was on the thanksgiving cruise and kids were all over the place on the ship, running, screaming you name it.  They weren't penned up in the kids club.  I certainly didn't think about writing Gus about it.  I'm very limited to the time I can take off work and was told by many on here that I should know better.  I'm not a retiree that has my whole pick of dates to go as I would like.  Its going to be wall to wall kids unless you go on a several month cruise (not a B2B)

[albingirl]

4 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

No Holiday sailings for us ,once was enough with 500 kids aboard .HAL ships are inadequate for children which other cruise lines cater . So as this all gets around what is HAL   going to try next when the next holiday period arrives ? Well we won't be there

Sounds good.

[3rdGenCunarder]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

When my son was young and we used to sail Princess (his favorite line, despite NOT having climbing walls or bumper cars or wave riders), I remember at holiday times there were bookings that were actually refused because they had some kind of quota in place -- it had to do less with kids club capacity and more with safety (life jackets and places in lifeboats) or so we were told...

 

When I heard 500 kids, I wondered about capacity and safety. How many triples and quads does HAL have? The kids sail free only if they're 3rd or 4th passengers in a cabin, so I doubt there were many bookings with one adult and one kid. 

 

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

However, there is one point on which HAL needs to do a better job, and that is empowering their onboard personnel to ensure kids follow the rules and that parents take responsibility for them doing so.

 

Never gonna happen. They won't enforce the chair hogging rules. No way is some crew member going to face the wrath of a parent who is told his/her precious perfect darling is doing something unacceptable. HAL would need to increase security staffing. 

[Florida_gal_50]

5 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

When I heard 500 kids, I wondered about capacity and safety. How many triples and quads does HAL have? The kids sail free only if they're 3rd or 4th passengers in a cabin, so I doubt there were many bookings with one adult and one kid. 

 

 

Never gonna happen. They won't enforce the chair hogging rules. No way is some crew member going to face the wrath of a parent who is told his/her precious perfect darling is doing something unacceptable. HAL would need to increase security staffing. 

It’s too bad parents don’t take responsibility.  That said when I was on the koningsdam I went to sel de mer for dinner one night. In walks this couple with a kid maybe 5 or 6. This is a long meal and they were in there for a while.  I was thinking oh great based on what I’d seen on that cruise.  That child was the best behaved child I’ve ever seen in my life.  She spoke in a hushed tone and she played quietly.  I had to keep blinking to see if there was really a kid there.  I had to complement them on the way out.  Clearly it’s something they do often and I really appreciate the effort it must take.

[cbr663]

50 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

.....

Never gonna happen. They won't enforce the chair hogging rules. No way is some crew member going to face the wrath of a parent who is told his/her precious perfect darling is doing something unacceptable. HAL would need to increase security staffing. 

 

I contemplated writing this exact thing earlier.

[iceman93]

The only "nastygram" was the OP's rude letter (one example, referring to the recipient by last name only).  It really came across as an unfocused rant.

 

The reply from HAL was polite, professional, and did the best job I think it could have in providing a reasoned, rational response.

[XLVIII]

Meanwhile, over on the Carnival board, a bunch of nine year olds are having this conversation:

 

-We just got back from a week on the Vista and the place was PACKED with Grandparents!

-Right? Us too! Everywhere we went there were seniors - in the buffet, at the pool, the IMAX - one got if front of me at the soda machine!
-They were even getting in line for ice cream and the SkyRide!

-Doesn’t Carnival provide the a Bingo Hall or something?

[keysey222]

I sail HAL with my young child. I see nothing wrong with HAL's response. It's not their job to entertain or babysit my child or any parent's children. It's unfortunate that many crappy parents let their kids run wild and allow their kids to behave disrespectfully on the ship, but that's on the parents. Not HAL. 

[OlsSalt]

1 minute ago, keysey222 said:

I sail HAL with my young child. I see nothing wrong with HAL's response. It's not their job to entertain or babysit my child or any parent's children. It's unfortunate that many crappy parents let their kids run wild and allow their kids to behave disrespectfully on the ship, but that's on the parents. Not HAL. 

 

How do other passengers deal with this "tyranny by the minority" of disrespectful" parents?

[scooter6139]

I'm old enough to recall when "It takes a village" was still a thing for raising children.  

[Guest ldtr]

16 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do other passengers deal with this "tyranny by the minority" of disrespectful" parents?

Same as they deal with the minority of disrespectful adults, many of which are certainly old enough to know better or for that matter old enough for even their adult grandchildren to know better.

[cruisemom42]

43 minutes ago, scooter6139 said:

I'm old enough to recall when "It takes a village" was still a thing for raising children.  

 

Yeah -- try growing up in a small town in the South in the 1960s-70s.  Not a thing happened that my parents weren't made aware of almost immediately. 😂.  And believe me:  It was me (and not the tale-tellers) who suffered for it. 

[moscow123456]

57 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do other passengers deal with this "tyranny by the minority" of disrespectful" parents?

This is a difficult question to answer because, as parents, we can only control our own children. As @scooter6139correctly pointed out, in the past the discipline of children was something that was encouraged and expected by society as a whole and was dispensed by the "village" in addition to the parents themselves.  And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do not necessarily mean corporal punishment - discipline means many things and, in this instance, I am using that phrase to mean structure/guidance/moral foundations. That has changed.  It is no longer considered correct or appropriate to "discipline" a child that is not your own (and that does not even touch upon the possible legal implications of the situation).  

 

I wish there was a universal answer to the dilemma, but unfortunately there is not.  There are the options of removing yourself from the situation, speaking to the management or servers, or even speaking directly (and I would advise, gently, in order to avoid unnecessary confrontation) to the parents of the child/ren involved. 

 

Or you can devise rather sneaky ways to deal with the situation - which is what we try to do when faced with a "child running amok."  This approach is, of course, situational, but we have had rather good success with it under many circumstances.  Our thought process for these types of situations is divert, divert, divert.  Use something to divert and redirect the attention of the young person who is misbehaving.

 

For example, we were recently at a resort for a long weekend for Easter with our son.  As Easter is big family holiday, there were several large and extended family groups around us.  One of these multi-generational groups had decided to let their 4-5 year old run amok in the restaurant.  This young child was running from table to table "blowing" out the candles on the tables - whether they were occupied with diners eating dinner or not.  He was disrupting conversations, climbing onto chairs in order to reach the candles, knocking things over in his haste to go from table to table, spitting all over the tables as he attempted to blow them out, and making a general nuisance of himself all over the restaurant.  All while his entire family remained at their table enjoying their meal, while the rest of the restaurant suffered from the antics of a bored child.

 

My son had been watching him make his way around the restaurant.  As he approached our table, our 13-year-old son reached over, picked up our candle, turned away from our table (for sanitary reasons), and meeting the eyes of the young child, deliberately blew out the candle.  He then stood up, held out his hand, and walked the young child back over to his table. There he announced to the parents that he found this young man wandering around the restaurant and wanted to make sure he was returned - safely - to his parents because he was so very young to be wandering around alone.  At no point did he speak disrespectfully, raise his voice, or in any way make any kind of scene.  He couched it in terms of concern for the safety of the young man rather than as a complaint.  As he was preparing to leave the table, he reached into his pocket, pulled out a pack of Wikki Stix (which he carries around with him in his pockets - along with fidget spinners - to entertain himself when we are out in public) and handed the pack to the young child, explaining to him that it was a "toy" for him to play with while his family ate their dinner. 

 

Every other diner around us immediately followed his lead and blew out their candles - thus, removing the temptation from the young man to restart the behavior.  Later, several adults came over to thank him for his quick thinking in alleviating the situation w/out making the situation worse.  He removed the temptation, politely returned the child to his parents, and provided the child with something to keep him amused for the rest of the meal - all w/out any fuss or muss.

 

Obviously, this type of solution is not a cure-all for bad or inconsiderate parenting such as what you experienced in your cabana on your previous cruise. But maybe it offers at least one idea on a possible way to handle this type of situation while eating out in public.  (As an aside, I am truly sorry for the awful experience you had with the poor parenting exhibited in the adjacent cabana on your cruise.) 

Edited May 9, 2023 by moscow123456

[OlsSalt]

1 hour ago, ldtr said:

Same as they deal with the minority of disrespectful adults, many of which are certainly old enough to know better or for that matter old enough for even their adult grandchildren to know better.

 

How do we passengers deal with it, when HAL management choses to ignore a material complaint,  or paper it over with CYA platitudes?

 

We had to finally walk away from our paid-for Retreat Cabana.  Our  initial request to cancel and get a refund was not honored when we saw what we would be up against: allowing 6 kids plus two adults in a two-person Retreat cabana space.

 

We were told we had to adapt; not the offending Retreat Cabana passengers. Why was that? A management decision curiosity. A sixth sense instinct - who will give them the least trouble - us or them? They obviously chose to offend us; not the clear Retreat Space offenders.

 

The real question is how much further stress do others inflict on themselves while on board,  trying to get this type of negative experience resolved?

 

We choose to finally walk away from it.  And now only complain about it here. Yes, I do think HAL should have immediately refunded our money with no further escalation required on our part. We folded. Just as their instincts assumed we would.

 

So I am mad at myself, as much as HAL over this. I could have escalated this, but chose not to. When do others simply walk away and how many layers have others had to plow through while on board to finally get a satisfactory resolution?

 

[PACD_JG]

2 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do other passengers deal with this "tyranny by the minority" of disrespectful" parents?

I vote with my dollar, as should the OP.  Will never pay again to go on a holiday cruise, and if non-holiday cruises (such as this summer's Alaska cruise) become overwhelmed with children to the point that it detracts from my enjoyment...well, thankfully cruising has never been my first choice to spend a vacation anyway.

[Guest ldtr]

36 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do we passengers deal with it, when HAL management choses to ignore a material complaint,  or paper it over with CYA platitudes?

 

We had to finally walk away from our paid-for Retreat Cabana.  Our  initial request to cancel and get a refund was not honored when we saw what we would be up against: allowing 6 kids plus two adults in a two-person Retreat cabana space.

 

We were told we had to adapt; not the offending Retreat Cabana passengers. Why was that? A management decision curiosity. A sixth sense instinct - who will give them the least trouble - us or them? They obviously chose to offend us; not the clear Retreat Space offenders.

 

The real question is how much further stress do others inflict on themselves while on board,  trying to get this type of negative experience resolved?

 

We choose to finally walk away from it.  And now only complain about it here. Yes, I do think HAL should have immediately refunded our money with no further escalation required on our part. We folded. Just as their instincts assumed we would.

 

So I am mad at myself, as much as HAL over this. I could have escalated this, but chose not to. When do others simply walk away and how many layers have others had to plow through while on board to finally get a satisfactory resolution?

 

A material complaint that there are children on board. That in the opinion of the complainer were causing problems because they were in the various venues.

 

HAL did not paper their response over any thing they were very clear they are not going to restrict the booking of children and the role of parents.

 

I have been far more annoyed by adults, including elderly adults subjecting me to telephones calls and video calls in public forums at high volume, as well as the playing of music and videos also at high volume.  After a cruise and spending a few hours in the crows nest I can probably tell you the medical condition and a lot of very personal details of several passengers just because of the loud phones calls that adults, who should know better, make.

 

Quite often if children are causing a problem the rest of their family is as well, even if the children are not there.

[3rdGenCunarder]

53 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

How do we passengers deal with it, when HAL management choses to ignore a material complaint,  or paper it over with CYA platitudes?

 

We had to finally walk away from our paid-for Retreat Cabana.  Our  initial request to cancel and get a refund was not honored when we saw what we would be up against: allowing 6 kids plus two adults in a two-person Retreat cabana space.

 

We were told we had to adapt; not the offending Retreat Cabana passengers. Why was that? A management decision curiosity. A sixth sense instinct - who will give them the least trouble - us or them? They obviously chose to offend us; not the clear Retreat Space offenders.

 

The real question is how much further stress do others inflict on themselves while on board,  trying to get this type of negative experience resolved?

 

We choose to finally walk away from it.  And now only complain about it here. Yes, I do think HAL should have immediately refunded our money with no further escalation required on our part. We folded. Just as their instincts assumed we would.

 

So I am mad at myself, as much as HAL over this. I could have escalated this, but chose not to. When do others simply walk away and how many layers have others had to plow through while on board to finally get a satisfactory resolution?

 

 

It's a balance. Do you make a fuss and sustain the aggravation, or do you let it go for the sake of your blood pressure. 

 

I would not have wanted to be in the cabana with a noisy crowded group there. A "retreat" is not a playground. I might have tried a few times more before giving up. And then what? Definitely complain. But how often do you want to go to the front desk to fight the good fight? At some point you have to let go, if only to salvage your vacation and not upset yourself.

 

It isn't fair to have your vacation impacted because some people are rude and inconsiderate. Nobody has the right to flaunt the rules and interfere with another passenger's enjoyment of a vacation. But, sadly, some do. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

3 hours ago, scooter6139 said:

I'm old enough to recall when "It takes a village" was still a thing for raising children.  

 

So am I, but I wouldn't try it now.

[Haljo1935]

We consider school schedules/holidays/... when we book, but still find ourselves on EVERY cruise saying at some point to each other "shouldn't these kids be in school?" Usually followed by "there sure are a lot of home schooled children these days" and "how much of this trip is the bottle-feeder going to remember?"

With that said, we will continue to book HAL and not book mega-ships with waterparks and other children-friendly venues. Our frustration is with both the ill-behaved child and the "ignore it and it didn't happen" parent who created the behavior. 

Not anti-child. Pro civilized, well-behaved children and adults who appreciate the difference. 

Recently (Feb Nieuw Amsterdam) while waiting for our table in MDR - you know the place - it's between the glass doors and the host podiums - an approx 8yo girl in a dress was doing cartwheels. Neither the man nor woman that I assumed to be her parents said anything (to her to stop doing what she was doing or to us to apologize). The woman that I assumed to be her grandmother did say something to her - she told her what an excellent job she was doing, again not a peep of an apology to us or to the MDR staff who had to maneuver around her.

This is why I choose to frequent cruiselines that have typically fewer children. Oh and the screamer whose parents didn't see they dropped their bottle in the buffet line about 10 passengers back...

[OlsSalt]

5 hours ago, ldtr said:

A material complaint that there are children on board. That in the opinion of the complainer were causing problems because they were in the various venues.

 

HAL did not paper their response over any thing they were very clear they are not going to restrict the booking of children and the role of parents.

 

I have been far more annoyed by adults, including elderly adults subjecting me to telephones calls and video calls in public forums at high volume, as well as the playing of music and videos also at high volume.  After a cruise and spending a few hours in the crows nest I can probably tell you the medical condition and a lot of very personal details of several passengers just because of the loud phones calls that adults, who should know better, make.

 

Quite often if children are causing a problem the rest of their family is as well, even if the children are not there.

No, you did not read this particular issue.

 

 Material complaint: cabanas were restricted to two adults per unit or four adults per family unit according to their own promotional material and pricing. 

 

It was known there would be many children on board during the Holidays. This made the choice of the expected adults-only premium charge Retreat Cabanas a very valued option when in fact it was known there would be many children on board.

 

I could be pool side with noisy kids for free on that cruise. So in this case, the cost of a the private adults only Retreat Cabana was good money down the drain.  I contend this is a material complaint. 

 

Thanks for trying.