Nastygram from Antorcha's liaison

[AV8rix]

Well, I had a really bizarre exchange of messages with Antorcha’s liaison.  Following is the message that I sent to the Office of the President:

____________________________________________________________________________

Earlier this month on the Cruise Critic forum they had a feature “Ask Carnival Corp's CEO: Call for Questions for Josh Weinstein”.  I posted the following and, as a courtesy, am forwarding the text of the message to you:

------------------------------------------

Disclaimer:  I am a mother.  I DON’T hate kids!

 

Was the “Kids Sail Free” promo during the holidays a corporate-wide thing or just a HAL thing?  If it was a promo offered only on HAL then Antorcha owns it and you may disregard the rest of this comment.

 

I was on the Christmas cruise on Koningsdam B2B with the New Year cruise.  They were a DISASTER!!  Captain told us the kids head-count on both cruises but I forgot the exact figures.  I do remember it was in the neighborhood of about 500+ on both voyages.

 

Well, here’s the problem:  The other CCL brands have always been more family-oriented.  There are bumper cars, water slides, climbing walls, miniature golf, etc.  There are lots of things for kids to do.  But HALs core demographic has always been older folks and there is NO staffing or provisions for kids except Club HAL and the Loft.  Both venues have limited occupancy.  I heard that on the Thanksgiving cruise Club HAL announced that they were limited to about 20 or 30 kids at any one time.

 

So on the holiday cruises the 500 or so kids co-opted BOTH pools and just generally ran around the ship annoying the other passengers.  They invaded all venues (except the casino) – even LCS sometimes, which surprised me. But this was not the fault of the kids.  What with limited occupancy of Club HAL and the Loft, the ship provided nothing else for them to do.

 

I understand the impact that the pandemic had on corporate finances.  So you had to resort to desperate measures to fill ships.  But, if the promo was a corporate decision, please exempt HAL in the future. 

 

And following is the text of the message that I received in reply (highlighting is mine):

_______________________________________________

 

Dear Mrs. xxxxxx: 

Thank you for contacting Mr. Gus Antorcha regarding your Koningsdam  sailing. Mr. Antorcha has reviewed your concerns and asked me to respond on his behalf and express his regret for the disappointment you encountered. 

While cruisers of all ages are welcome aboard our ships, your comments regarding the behavior of some of the children on your sailing are troubling. We offer a variety of activities for kids and teens and provide facilities intended to enhance everyone’s cruise enjoyment. However, our programs are not intended as a day care service and parents are expected to assume responsibility for their children and ensure they are respectful of their fellow travelers. In addition, the parents who come on board will realize that our demographics are not children oriented like that of Disney cruises and Princess cruise as such. 

In addition, children are to be expected on holiday sailings, the best way to avoid them is not to go on a holiday sailing as we will not deny children on board our sailings. 

Again, we sincerely apologize for any concerns arising from unruly behavior and for taking the time to provide Mr. Antorcha with your feedback. We look forward to welcoming you aboard Volendam next month. 

Sincerely, 

Christine Ferris

Special Advisor
Office of the President

Nowhere in the reply did she address the facts that I stated in my original post – that, except for Club HAL and The Loft, there is nothing for kids, and on those holiday cruises their numbers greatly exceeded the capacity of both venues.

And nowhere in my original post did I suggest that HAL “deny children on board our sailings”.  In my 13 years on HAL, there have been a few kids on EVERY voyage, but they have not been a problem because there was always room for those few in the kids’ venues.

 

I suspect (may be wrong) that what I received was a boilerplate response sent to what were undoubtedly many complaints that were sent to Antorcha’s office after the holiday cruises.

[decrepit old man]

Ok?

[julia]

"Nastygram?!"  Really?  It was a straightforward reply to your complaint.  Holiday sailing + more kids ÷ stupid parents = unsatisfactory cruise. Sorry, but that's reality.

[OlsSalt]

For the record: Same cruise - Konigsdam Christmas Cruise

 

........... parents are expected to assume responsibility for their children and ensure they are respectful of their fellow travelers.......

 

Irresponsible parents brought in six active young children to the Retreat Cabana area, which ruined that pre-paid Retreat space for many of us nearby. There was no onboard resolution of this matter.  No expectations were set or honored by onboard staff

 

Just the opposite. They told us we had to accommodate them; not the other way around. This also created an unacceptable work load for the Retreat Stewards, resulting in very limited service for the other fully paid Retreat guests. 

[Mary229]

HAL needs to cut the pretense.  Their images of Grandma and Grandpa escorting 5 year olds on a cruise are ludicrous.  If they want to cater to that concept they should at least do us all a favor and show images of teens and young adults out escorting rich Aunt Bess!  😁

[Sir PMP]

You're right only kids should sail on a holiday:

 

 

 

[albingirl]

The message is that we are not running a day care center.  Message is loud and clear.  For the most part, I've seen pretty well behaved kids on sailings but I don't sail during holiday seasons.  Nor will I ever. 

[FlaMariner]

Me thinks the response was fair and honest (something that is rare today and I applaud HAL for telling it like it is).

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

11 hours ago, AV8rix said:

[from the HAL reply] We offer a variety of activities for kids and teens and provide facilities intended to enhance everyone’s cruise enjoyment. However, our programs are not intended as a day care service and parents are expected to assume responsibility for their children and ensure they are respectful of their fellow travelers.

 

Perhaps HAL should have sent that message to the parents sailing with children. Sure, parents want their kids to have a good time. But that good time should not happen at the expense of someone else's good time.

 

Manners have reached such a low point that the Playbill for the show I saw in NYC yesterday contained a letter from the President and Chairman of Playbill. There was a list of theater etiquette items, most of which civilized people should already know. Here are a few excerpts:

 

--Always cooperate with the ushers and front of house staff...

--Be respectful of the people around you and do not make disruptive comments.

--Do not engage with the actors or musicians working in the show, and do not distract them

--Stop drinking alcohol immediately if you feel tipsy. Drink some water.

--Be patient with restroom lines. We know they're long and space is tight. But do not become pushy or rude. Everyone will get their turn.

 

And the one that should be printed in bold: Do not sing along with the actors. It distracts your fellow theatregoers and is not thoughtful.   Amen to that! I did not spend a couple hundred bucks to hear someone drone on tunelessly next to me!!!!!!

 

[VMax1700]

11 hours ago, AV8rix said:

I suspect (may be wrong) that what I received was a boilerplate response sent to what were undoubtedly many complaints that were sent to Antorcha’s office after the holiday cruises.

Is there a 'management has head in sand' emoji?

They don't care about your comfort 

They no longer care for their core demographic when cash flow comes calling.  They are quite happy to fill holiday sailings with overflowing kids when it attracts the cash paying adults that accompany them.

Certainly we should know that there will be kids on holiday sailings, but not so many that it is detrimental to the cruise experience that is expected from the brand.

It is marketing ploys like this that will come back to haunt them.

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, VMax1700 said:

Is there a 'management has head in sand' emoji?

They don't care about your comfort 

They no longer care for their core demographic when cash flow comes calling.  They are quite happy to fill holiday sailings with overflowing kids when it attracts the cash paying adults that accompany them.

Certainly we should know that there will be kids on holiday sailings, but not so many that it is detrimental to the cruise experience that is expected from the brand.

It is marketing ploys like this that will come back to haunt them.

 

 

Depends upon what they consider their core demographic to me. They have been successful in dropping their average age of passengers to down below 60. Frommers put it at 57 on the most recent update of their web site compared to 65 back around 2015. So their view of their core demographic may be different then yours.

 

I have been seeing more families on board, especially on 7 day cruises in Alaska amd the Caribbean during school holidays. The trend seems to be moving in that direction.

[Heartgrove]

Perhaps HAL should be more proactive advocating expected behavior on holiday cruises with young passengers. They certainly know the demographics of the bookings and could send out an email to targeted passengers regarding expected behavior. Just think of all the emails we receive each week from HAL! One more might help a bit.

 

That was terrible that the crew was to "just grin and bear it." There was just a recent posting on the MSC forum about a weekend cruise how rude passengers were yelling at the MSC crew. And they wondered why the crew wasn't happy!

[Mary229]

10 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Depends upon what they consider their core demographic to me. They have been successful in dropping their average age of passengers to down below 60. Frommers put it at 57 on the most recent update of their web site compared to 65 back around 2015. So their view of their core demographic may be different then yours.

 

I have been seeing more families on board, especially on 7 day cruises in Alaska amd the Caribbean during school holidays. The trend seems to be moving in that direction.

They have definitely bifurcated. You have the 30+ day journeys for seasoned travelers and a few families wanting their children to experience true travel AND the casual tourist on the 7 to 10 day cruises.  Since I started sailing HAL in 2008 I have always maintained the view that if you want classic HAL book something over 12 days.  I only sail shorter voyages when accompanied by my still working sister with limited time off. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mary229

[DaveOKC]

IMO, HAL is not the best cruiseline for children, especially if there are alot of them on a specific cruise.  Plus, alot of children means alot more work for the crew, which are often overworked to start with.

 

For this reason we avoid holidays, summer cruises and other peak vacation times on HAL.  Also, we try to stay with cruises that are longer than 7 days.

 

Its not that we do not like children, its really about how well HAL is setup to handle large numbers of them (not well IMO).

 

[mcrcruiser]

No Holiday sailings for us ,once was enough with 500 kids aboard .HAL ships are inadequate for children which other cruise lines cater . So as this all gets around what is HAL   going to try next when the next holiday period arrives ? Well we won't be there

[BetsyS.]

3rdGenCunarder - Many years ago I was at a play in Boston. It said in program that no 

flash pictures were allowed. However, someone in audience was taking flash pictures. 

Katherine Hepburn stopped what she was saying to tell off the person who was taking the pictures. Then she went back to the play.

[syesmar]

13 hours ago, AV8rix said:

…And following is the text of the message that I received in reply (highlighting is mine):

_____________________________

Dear Mrs. xxxxxx: 

…. We offer a variety of activities for kids and teens and provide facilities intended to enhance everyone’s cruise enjoyment. However, our programs are not intended as a day care service and parents are expected to assume responsibility for their children and ensure they are respectful of their fellow travelers. In addition, the parents who come on board will realize that our demographics are not children oriented like that of Disney cruises and Princess cruise as such. 

 

In addition, children are to be expected on holiday sailings, the best way to avoid them is not to go on a holiday sailing as we will not deny children on board our sailings….

 

Sincerely, 

Christine Ferris

 

Special Advisor
Office of the President

 

(Bolds and Underlinings mine) I wonder if HAL would be willing to put these words on their promotional materials? 😄

Edited May 8, 2023 by syesmar

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, BetsyS. said:

3rdGenCunarder - Many years ago I was at a play in Boston. It said in program that no 

flash pictures were allowed. However, someone in audience was taking flash pictures. 

Katherine Hepburn stopped what she was saying to tell off the person who was taking the pictures. Then she went back to the play.

We had a similar experience on the new 800 Max jets.  They can see who has their seatbelt unfastened.  Be warned they will call you out😂

[cruisemom42]

34 minutes ago, BetsyS. said:

3rdGenCunarder - Many years ago I was at a play in Boston. It said in program that no 

flash pictures were allowed. However, someone in audience was taking flash pictures. 

Katherine Hepburn stopped what she was saying to tell off the person who was taking the pictures. Then she went back to the play.

 

Some people were just raised by wolves*

 

* Of or describing someone who seems particularly uncouth or socially inept. As in:  "Why are you eating spaghetti with your hands? Were you raised by wolves?"
 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

3 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Some people were just raised by wolves*

 

* Of or describing someone who seems particularly uncouth or socially inept. As in:  "Why are you eating spaghetti with your hands? Were you raised by wolves?"
 

 

 

I made that comment recently, and the friend to whom I said it told me that I was insulting wolves!

[3rdGenCunarder]

41 minutes ago, BetsyS. said:

3rdGenCunarder - Many years ago I was at a play in Boston. It said in program that no 

flash pictures were allowed. However, someone in audience was taking flash pictures. 

Katherine Hepburn stopped what she was saying to tell off the person who was taking the pictures. Then she went back to the play.

 

Oh, I can just see that! The list also had the usual turn off cell phone and please unwrap candies. I saw nathan Lane in a play last month, and he broke character to call out two people in the FRONT ROW who were eating peanuts out of a very crinkly noisy bag. "I'm sorry, I just can't take this any more. Do you know how distracting that is? And my God, that bag must be from Costco!" And he went on from there. As he went back to his position, he got quite a round of applause. Later, but not when Lane was onstage, the woman had her cell phone on. What is WRONG with some people????

[BetsyS.]

3rdGenCunarder - I love Nathan Lane!!  Years ago Al Pacino was in a play and a cell 

phone was ringing loudly. I wasn't there, but I saw it on the news. Pacino broke character and said "turn off the f*****g phone!"

[OlsSalt]

When holiday cruise passengers sign up knowing there will be far more families and children on board, but also pay extra for reserved, promised quiet, adults only, Retreat Cabana space to avoid this known holiday cruise impact, the best thing HAL management can say is ...... it is your fault ....you knew there would be more children on board at this time?

[cbr663]

I've noticed that there appears to be a change in the norms of acceptable social etiquette.  We seem to have evolved from a society that demonstrated consideration for others and harmonious interactions to being more focused on meeting individual needs at the expense of others.

 

HAL has never promoted itself as an adults only line.  Children are welcomed as passengers and as passengers have full access to the ship and all its amenities just as adults do.  This means swimming in the pools, using the hot tubs, using the gyms and availing of the spas.  We all accept this whenever we book a HAL cruise.

 

There is little doubt that a lot of younger children on a cruise ship will change the environment of the ship.  If this is something that will negatively impact your cruise experience the best advice is to select longer cruises which potentially will have a greater chance of less children, travel when children are typically in school or choose an adult only cruise line.  Cause you can be assured there ain't no crew member on any ship being paid what they are being paid about to ask any parent to better take care of their misbehaving child.  

[scooter6139]

I did not see or infer any snark in that response at all.  Just simple facts and some simple solutions.  Families cruise during their vacation times (my wife is a teacher so we must deal with this all the time).  This happens on all lines that allow children, even HAL.  Holidays are the worst time to cruise if you don't want to deal with lots of children, which Christine points out.

If the OP doesn't want kids on their cruise, cruise with a line that doesn't allow anyone under 18, like Virgin or Viking.