Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[Mary229]

7 minutes ago, CNSJ said:

One of the primary reasons we sail HAL.  Service is good on their oldest ship and newest ship. 

 

Consider that RCI has their newest "monstrosity" Icon of the Seas doing 7 day runs for the next 18 months or more, against itinerary focused lines such as HAL and Cunard who's newest vessels (Rotterdam and Queen Anne) travel the globe.  True that HAL does the 7-day Alaska runs in the summer and many 7 day runs from Port Everglades in winter, but I think many of those runs are to attract new cruisers. 

 

 

Those runs are to keep the ships from being idle and to capture the vacation market.  I have learned that even if I want to go to those locales to book 14 days minimum and not back to back. From guidance given on the forum I do look at other lines especially the ones @Hlitner and @cruisemom42 suggest but I don’t find the itineraries I am looking for.  I will be giving Princess another try in 2025 since they are now doing Transatlantic cruises to and from Texas .  I liked Princess before they went all in on mega ships, ditto NCL. 

[mwj]

Carnival adding a new ship in ‘27.

https://www.cruisehive.com/carnival-to-expand-fleet-orders-new-excel-class-cruise-ship/123280

[AFNavigator]

IF CCL were to add a new ship to the HAL fleet, it seems logical that it would be a variant of Cunard's new Queen Anne ship.

 

If Wikipedia is to be trusted, the MS Queen Anne is a "Pinnacle Series 4" ship, a modest growth version of HAL's three Pinnacle class ships.  It comes in at 1,058 ft long vs HAL's 983 ft, is 2 ft wider, and is 113,000 tons vs HAL's ~100,000 tons.  Stated engines and azipod units are the same for both versions.

 

That relatively modest size growth probably would still fit HAL well, as compared to the much larger ships Princess is buying (and still only about half the enormous capacity of Royal's new mega-ships).

[RedIguana]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:05 AM, Hlitner said:

When we look at the overall cruise industry (we cruise on many different lines) it does seem that HAL has now been positioned as a budget mass market line

HAL is still on the upper end of the mass market lines, along with Celebrity and Princess. There is no way you can compare HAL to a budget line such as MSC or Costa. And if you think the penny pinching is bad on HAL, check out what has happened to Celebrity and Princess. They both also have upcharges for a lot of drinks on their lower packages, and Celebrity has upcharges for drinks on their premium package that are covered under HAL's. Decoy cab on HAL is covered by the premium package (14.50, package covers to 15), on Celebrity it is a $2.36 upcharge ($19, package covers to $17).

 

[Hlitner]

57 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

HAL is still on the upper end of the mass market lines, along with Celebrity and Princess. There is no way you can compare HAL to a budget line such as MSC or Costa. And if you think the penny pinching is bad on HAL, check out what has happened to Celebrity and Princess. They both also have upcharges for a lot of drinks on their lower packages, and Celebrity has upcharges for drinks on their premium package that are covered under HAL's. Decoy cab on HAL is covered by the premium package (14.50, package covers to 15), on Celebrity it is a $2.36 upcharge ($19, package covers to $17).

 

Really?  Perhaps we are naive, but we have cruised on 17 different lines including being Elite on Princess, Diamond Plus on Celebrity, and Diamond on MSC (only cruise in their Yacht Club).  We are also 5* on HAL.  Have never cruised on Costa so cannot comment on that comparison.  Not boasting but just trying to deal with what you say from firsthand knowledge.  And yes, we view the current version of HAL as a budget cruise line within the so-called mass market category.  Granted that this is just the opinion of two folks (DW and me) and no question many will disagree.  

 

Bottom line is that when a cruise line acts like a budget line, we give them their due.

 

 

 

[RedIguana]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

and Diamond on MSC (only cruise in their Yacht Club)

Try MSC without the Yacht Club, then you are on a budget line.

[Ride-The-Waves]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:05 AM, Hlitner said:

Sounds a bit defensive.  New Builds are huge capital expenditures and the ultimate decision rests with the CEO of Carnival Cruise Corp and their board of directors.  Like most business-orented folks who have a "fiduciary" responsibility to stockholders, the board ulitmately puts their dollars and future investments where they expect to get the best return on investment.  One can conclude, that at the current time, the board does not think that HAL can justify (financially) a new build.  

 

When we look at the overall cruise industry (we cruise on many different lines) it does seem that HAL has now been positioned as a budget mass market line with a primary appeal to a small segment of the cruising public (older folks looking for good value without much interest in entertainment, activities, or onboard "bells and whistles."   Perhaps that will change in the future, but our recent cruise (Westerdam) showed us that HAL has little to offer (when compared to the other lines we cruise) other than decent itineraries and some decent pricing.  In many cases we see other lines constantly adding things while HAL continues to take things away (i.e. cost cutting).  There is a reason why we find many past HAL cruisers on lines like Oceania, Seabourn, etc.  Many of us are simply looking for something closer to the quality and entertainment we USED to find on HAL.  At one time we saw HAL as the "class act" and quality leader among all the mass market lines (Celebrity was close).  These days we just see HAL as a tired old company with an emphasis on penny pinching.  One has only to look at HAL's recently failed policy of charging extra money for folks who simply wanted to order soup and a salad in the PG!  or having a basic drink package which had a $1.18 extra fee for folks ordering a basic Cosmopolitan.  Small things, but symbolic of a penny pinching (nickel and dime) philosophy.

 

Hank

We all need to remember that MSC (Mediterranean Shipping Company) operates at a different level than CCL and RCCL since it is privately, owned, and has the underpinnings of global commercial shipping as backbone.  To place a hit on HAL for how it operates is unbecoming.  HAL does a great job providing excellent cruise ships for its market.  My first experience with HAL was as a youngster crossing the Atlantic in 1949.  Today's mass market ships, and I include Princess in that category, cannot provide the same high level of experience we had in the 1950s on the Atlantic.  I have sailed on many ships and many lines, to include Oceania and Azamara.  Oceania was not up to their marketing.  They do not have the "finest cuisine at sea" by any stretch of the imagination.  Neither do any of the mega-ships and I include Princess' Royal class in that category.  Have plans to return to "yesteryear" and cross the Pond this year on Zuiderdam, Adventure of the Seas, and Caribbean Princess.  While not classic ships (with the exception of Zuiderdam) they are not part of the stomach-turning new breed of mega-ships.  Oh, and I also have 30 years experience in the USN...

[Avid Travel Geek]

I little birdie on my last cruise told me that the next ship is going to be the new Ryndam. I hope it will be the new Neptune class of ships, small but technologically advanced. 

[foodsvcmgr]

Please elaborate on the new “Neptune” class, not familiar with this design concept.

[Avid Travel Geek]

5 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Please elaborate on the new “Neptune” class, not familiar with this design concept.

 

I created that name. Makes sense since the suite categories match the classes of ships. 

[foodsvcmgr]

Well in any case a new Ryndam will likely be first of a new design class as Cunard’s Queen Anne is supposedly the last new build of the “Pinnacle” class.

Whether this ship proves to be smaller is anyone’s guess but the hope of many.

[terrydtx]

41 minutes ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Well in any case a new Ryndam will likely be first of a new design class as Cunard’s Queen Anne is supposedly the last new build of the “Pinnacle” class.

Whether this ship proves to be smaller is anyone’s guess but the hope of many.

Doubtful it will be smaller, HAL like other mainstream cruise lines need to fill more cabins to make a profit. The Pinnacle Class ships are already on the smaller design of new cruise ships at 2600 passengers. 

[TRLD]

9 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

Doubtful it will be smaller, HAL like other mainstream cruise lines need to fill more cabins to make a profit. The Pinnacle Class ships are already on the smaller design of new cruise ships at 2600 passengers. 

Based upon their current market position I would expect any new design to be less than 3000 but not any smaller that their last new builds.

 

There is the possibility that they could pick up a ship or 2 in the 2000 to 2500 range from another CCL line (Aida). Aida has been adding a lot of large ship capacity, while they have some smaller ships that are 8 to 14 years old and could be repurposed to HAL if CCL wanted to.

[jlawrence01]

One thing that I like about Holland America is its consistency between all of its ships in terms of what is offered.  I may not get everything that I would like on a particular ship but at least I pretty much know what I am getting.

 

On the other hand, when I book Celebrity (or Royal Caribbean), if I book on an older ship, I know that I am not going to get some or many of the things that they are featuring on their newer ships.  I was on the Millenium last year and I was surprised at how limited certain things were in terms of entertainment and included food selections compares to all of the YouTube Edge class videos I have seen

[Tampa Girl]

1 hour ago, Avid Travel Geek said:

I little birdie on my last cruise told me that the next ship is going to be the new Ryndam. I hope it will be the new Neptune class of ships, small but technologically advanced. 

 

What is the Neptune Class?  How many passengers, etc?

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, Tampa Girl said:

 

What is the Neptune Class?  How many passengers, etc?

Read post #164. Totally made up.

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, terrydtx said:

Doubtful it will be smaller, HAL like other mainstream cruise lines need to fill more cabins to make a profit. The Pinnacle Class ships are already on the smaller design of new cruise ships at 2600 passengers. 

 

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. There is a lot of background "pushback" on the bigger is better concept. There are too many of us who like the smaller ships to be ignored.

 

[RuthC]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. There is a lot of background "pushback" on the bigger is better concept. There are too many of us who like the smaller ships to be ignored.

 

Not to forget there are many ports that are getting sick of the huge ships, and the thousands of passengers that are unloaded into small places that can't handle them. There is pushback from them, too. 

[BermudaBound2014]

5 hours ago, Avid Travel Geek said:

I little birdie on my last cruise told me that the next ship is going to be the new Ryndam. I hope it will be the new Neptune class of ships, small but technologically advanced. 

Hearsay; and even if true, a new smaller ship for HAL won’t be anytime soon. CCL announced that their latest order is another excel class (mega) and even that is years away from being built. 

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/shipbuilding-equipment/carnival-ends-newbuild-drought-ordering-excel-class-cruise-ship-2027

 

 

 

Edited June 3 by BermudaBound2014

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. There is a lot of background "pushback" on the bigger is better concept. There are too many of us who like the smaller ships to be ignored.

 

 

Yes, but are you willing to pay the fares that correspond to a smaller ship?

 

My guestimate is that older smaller ships of the last generation are 30% less efficient than the latest large ships. Are you willing to pay 30% more?

 

Currently, HAL's smaller ships are charging the same price as the pinnacle ships in Alaska. That tells us about the spending power of HAL's pax.

 

As a matter of fact, Explora Journeys is operating mid-size ships (equivalent to Volendam) and their cruise fares start at HAL Neptune prices (after accounting for inclusions).

[Sir PMP]

7 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Yes, but are you willing to pay the fares that correspond to a smaller ship?

 

My guestimate is that older smaller ships of the last generation are 30% less efficient than the latest large ships. Are you willing to pay 30% more?

 

Currently, HAL's smaller ships are charging the same price as the pinnacle ships in Alaska. That tells us about the spending power of HAL's pax.

 

As a matter of fact, Explora Journeys is operating mid-size ships (equivalent to Volendam) and their cruise fares start at HAL Neptune prices (after accounting for inclusions).

I'll 40% more.

[terrydtx]

1 minute ago, HappyInVan said:

As a matter of fact, Explora Journeys is operating mid-size ships (equivalent to Volendam) and their cruise fares start at HAL Neptune prices (after accounting for inclusions).

Even Oceania's new ships (1250Pax) close to Volendam in capacity are charging Neptune Suite pricing. I do not believe HAL will ever go to the Mega Class ships, but I see their niche being the 2600-3000 passengers size ships. Sad to see but the Volendam and Zaandam are not the future of HAL and will be gone in a few years. 12 years ago HAL introduced the Signature Class ships just slightly bigger than the Vista Class ships, but they only built 2 of them. Then HAL changed direction with the Pinnacles with 600 -700 more passenger capacities.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Yes, but are you willing to pay the fares that correspond to a smaller ship?

 

 

Yes, and I believe many will. That's kinda the point. Smaller ships, at a profitable price point. I believe the super-duper-mega ships are going to find themselves in a position that they almost have to give away their cabins -- at a loss.

 

 

[TRLD]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

 

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. There is a lot of background "pushback" on the bigger is better concept. There are too many of us who like the smaller ships to be ignored.

 

As the saying goes money talks. Larger ships are more economically efficient with lower per passenger operating and capital investment costs. Smaller ships means higher fares. HAL is unlikely to want to compete with the premium lines  and their fares, which is what it takes when you get in the sub 2000 range. Even in the Premium like Oceania their new builds are in the 1400 range.

 

HALs market position is pretty clear. Smallest avg ship size out of the North American adult focused lines (HAL, Celebrity, Princess), longest avg itineraries of those 3, with the most unique ports visited. They are not going to raise fares that puts them in direct competition with the premium class lines.

 

With Princesses move to even larger ships in the 4000 range it opens up a bit more of a gap between Princess and HAL with both being owned by CCL.

Edited June 3 by TRLD

[Sir PMP]

11 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

I'll 40% more.

I missed 'pay'. Why does Viking doing so well and building more 900pax ships without a casino?