Bridge Tour

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge to the best of your ability. I have not found the Viking officer crew to be particularly great... and thus I feel less guilty, and almost empowered, for lighting up the officer crew on the surveys. If they are indeed contractors, I'll continue to do the same.

 

Since the only Officers on board a cruise ship are the Deck Officers, Engineering Officers, Doctor and Nursing Officers, I am surprised that you have have sufficient contact with them to make that determination.

 

BTW - The vessel's Master, who is often accessible to the pax is not a "Ship's Officer".

 

The current Safety Management Systems preclude regular contact with pax, so when I don't see or interact with Deck/Engineering Officers, and the ship is operated safely and arrives on time, they are doing a great job.

 

Back in my time on cruise ships, in the 70's & 80's, expectations were different, and officers were expected to meet and mingle with pax. Those days are long gone.

[Mike07]

5 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Since the only Officers on board a cruise ship are the Deck Officers, Engineering Officers, Doctor and Nursing Officers, I am surprised that you have have sufficient contact with them to make that determination.

 

 

 

 

Viking places the question on the survey. I suggest you take it up with them.

[Heidi13]

5 minutes ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

W-2 and 1099 are two compensation and wage forms we use in America when we report taxes to our internal revenue service that collects federal income taxes. Furthermore, our states with income taxes would use the same forms to assess their taxes

 

In terms of the latter, you're effectively describing head hunters. Are you saying the hotel staff are also contracted out?

 

Since the ships are not flagged in the USA and hardly any, if any, of the crew are American, why quote American tax forms? This is a worldwide forum with many nationalities.

 

Whether the hotel crew is contracted depends on whether you use American definitions or maritime definitions. Therefore, in my opinion neither the officers or ratings are "Contracted out".

[Heidi13]

Just now, Mike07 said:

 

 

Viking places the question on the survey. I suggest you take it up with them.

 

Since I won't cruise again with Viking until they provide Canadians with an alternative to the customer unfriendly US Office, completing a survey is a mute point.

 

I don't have an issue with the arrangement, as it is common in the marine industry

[Mike07]

Just now, Heidi13 said:

 

Since I won't cruise again with Viking until they provide Canadians with an alternative to the customer unfriendly US Office, completing a survey is a mute point.

 

I don't have an issue with the arrangement, as it is common in the marine industry

 

 

Fair enough.

 

I do have Viking cruises scheduled, but I'm far from a sycophant for the line and giving blanket five star ratings on reviews, as is often asked for by cruise line employees on the exit survey, really does nobody good if the ratings aren't warranted.

 

That Viking office was believe in LA, seems to routinely have issues with poster complaints.

 

In terms of the maritime industry, I have grave concerns if Viking is contracting out the most visible part of the product, the hotel operations. I can give you the talking points of what MBA students are taught about contracting out services, but the reality turns into a mixed bag.

[chengkp75]

Virtually all ships' crews, on all vessels around the world are hired by the shipowners through manning agencies in the home countries of the crew.  Shipowners find this practice very efficient, as the company does not need to keep a large personnel department, with contacts in many countries, but relies on the crewing agencies to have large pools of candidates available at all times.  In the US, crew are hired through unions, for the much the same reasons, the union is responsible for maintaining the pool of mariners, not the company.

[CDNPolar]

36 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Virtually all ships' crews, on all vessels around the world are hired by the shipowners through manning agencies in the home countries of the crew.  Shipowners find this practice very efficient, as the company does not need to keep a large personnel department, with contacts in many countries, but relies on the crewing agencies to have large pools of candidates available at all times.  In the US, crew are hired through unions, for the much the same reasons, the union is responsible for maintaining the pool of mariners, not the company.

 

The following is my conjecture and my experience, but I am not saying that this is what is happening, but it may well be...

 

I have worked in the "Staffing Industry" and in this industry Globally for over 25 years and this makes perfect sense to me.  You might be surprised at how many industries are literally staffed through agencies which allows companies like Viking to do what they do best.

 

Viking have very complex contract and staffing requirements for all their "hotel" roles from the dishwasher to the bartenders, cabin stewards to servers.  Contracts start and end mid cruise and individuals are swapped out.  We have often gotten to know a crew member that tell us mid-cruise that he or she or they are getting off the ship tomorrow and going home until their next contract.  This can be a very complex scheduling game, and when the replacement of a contract backs out at the last minute to meet a ship mid-itinerary, then this agency has a raft of replacement people ready to deploy.  In contract operations like this the turnover, no-show, resignations, and terminations are frequent and this agency is ready to fill the gap wherever it occurs.

 

If Viking are doing this all themselves, they would have to have recruiting arms in many countries and be in the "staffing" business and would have a LOT of recruitment offices.

 

My company moves people around the world - not with cruise lines - because we have the experience and expertise in certain industries to certify, and procure the immigration requirements to move these people around.  This is what we do and we do it for a lot of companies.  My company has moved over 20,000 nurses from the Philippines to the UK alone and we manage everything that they need to do to get to the UK.  For this we are "employed" by hospitals in the UK to supply where there is not current supply of nurses in the UK.

 

Most large companies that use staffing agencies of some kind are doing so because these staffing agencies are better equipped to advertise, attract, select, deploy, and manage the whole process on behalf of their client company.  This is what they do.  

 

I would be surprised if Viking did not have this kind of sourcing and supply model in place.

 

This also does not mean that the crew member does not "appear" to be a Viking employee.  They are trained and held to Viking standards and to every outside eye, they look and feel like Viking.

Edited May 11 by CDNPolar

[Mike07]

2 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

This also does not mean that the crew member does not "appear" to be a Viking employee.  They are trained and held to Viking standards and to every outside eye, they look and feel like Viking.

 

 

The issues with this model --- it turns into something like Boeing. Everybody "works" for Boeing, but nobody is responsible for the end product, because "I'm just a contractor."

 

I appreciate the insight into the industry we've seen here, and not just what I put on a Viking survey. I know many ship departments are often outsourced (casino, art auctions, gift shop, and other departments). I realize the maritime industry is also using techs and engineers to take care of the propulsion and electrical systems.

 

I personally do not find contractors to increase quality or knowledge. Yes, I have to work daily with contractors, and yes, I can give you horror stories. And yes, I could sell out, easily, and see a 50-100% salary increase by going contractor. This isn't Nam though, and I still have standards.

[CDNPolar]

12 minutes ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

The issues with this model --- it turns into something like Boeing. Everybody "works" for Boeing, but nobody is responsible for the end product, because "I'm just a contractor."

 

I appreciate the insight into the industry we've seen here, and not just what I put on a Viking survey. I know many ship departments are often outsourced (casino, art auctions, gift shop, and other departments). I realize the maritime industry is also using techs and engineers to take care of the propulsion and electrical systems.

 

I personally do not find contractors to increase quality or knowledge. Yes, I have to work daily with contractors, and yes, I can give you horror stories. And yes, I could sell out, easily, and see a 50-100% salary increase by going contractor. This isn't Nam though, and I still have standards.

 

I appreciate your concerns about this model, but I think most people would be amazed at how much of our world is outsourced today in this kind of model.

 

This does not mean - if executed well - that the individual crew member that you meet on the ship is not trained and held to the exacting standards that the client company demands.  That is all part of the outsourcing.

 

Believe me, every nurse we present to the UK either at least meets, if not exceeds the UK's standard in knowledge, ability, and care.

 

It does come down to can the company do the recruitment, onboarding, training, contract management, scheduling, etc., as well as the specialist that this is all they do?

 

This is not the same contracting model that I believe you are referring to with 50-100% salary increases... in this model no one is being paid more than the cruise company would pay if they did it all themselves.  In this kind of model the cruise company or client company is paying a service fee for the services but likely pay rolling the crew themselves.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Mike07 said:

The issues with this model --- it turns into something like Boeing. Everybody "works" for Boeing, but nobody is responsible for the end product, because "I'm just a contractor."

Not really.  Viking places certain expectations of quality, professionalism, and service on the management company, and if these are not met, then if the problem is with a crew member or officer, they are replaced at Viking's request.  If the problem is endemic, then the management company can find itself being replaced.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, CDNPolar said:

This is not the same contracting model that I believe you are referring to with 50-100% salary increases... in this model no one is being paid more than the cruise company would pay if they did it all themselves.  In this kind of model the cruise company or client company is paying a service fee for the services but likely pay rolling the crew themselves.

Yes, the crew are not getting anything extra for being hired by the ship management company.  And, while Viking is paying a fee to Wilhelmsen for managing the ship, they have found that, as you say, Wilhelmsen can do it better, for less money (less Viking shore payroll offsets the Wilhelmsen fee).  In fact, Wilhelmsen does the payroll for crew as well, but the pay rates are set by Viking, either by market forces or by collective bargaining agreements in the crew's home country.

[GonzoWCS]

Been on the Viking Bridge tour on BOTH Ocean & River.  Loved them both!

 

Cheers

[Twitchly]

This is a fascinating thread. 
 

I spent much of my career as a contractor/consultant. I never worked in a situation where the entire staff was made up of contractors. Is that the case on a Viking ship? I would be surprised if there were’t at least some number of actual Viking employees on a ship in order to ensure that Viking’s cultural and quality standards are met. While I’ve seen contractors take on those duties to some extent, I’ve never seen a company hand them over completely to outside staffing.
 

 

Edited May 13 by Twitchly

[CurlerRob]

2 hours ago, Twitchly said:

This is a fascinating thread. 
 

I spent much of my career as a contractor/consultant. I never worked in a situation where the entire staff was made up of contractors. Is that the case on a Viking ship? I would be surprised if there were’t at least some number of actual Viking employees on a ship in order to ensure that Viking’s cultural and quality standards are met. While I’ve seen contractors take on those duties to some extent, I’ve never seen a company hand them over completely to outside staffing.
 

 

I also found it unique and I’ve run businesses that were very highly leveraged with contractors. However, our resident professional mariners have educated us that this approach is common in the industry and has been so for many years. Given the degree of success, it’s hard to criticize it. 
 

I’m certain that Viking invests in ensuring that their standards are met - I suspect through policies and procedures, training, communications and measurement systems. I’d also expect that they do have a process for inspection (even if it’s just Tor and Karine sailing a lot)!

 

One observation I have is that personnel turnover on the cruise lines appears low - crew and senior staff keep coming back to the same line. This makes it easier to propagate Viking culture and standards. If you keep working for the same company, after a while it doesn’t matter who signs your paycheque, you identify with the cruise line. 
 

This ability to retain contractors indefinitely is unique in my experience. Many land-based jurisdictions will deem a long-term contractor to be an employee, and require the firm to provide statutory benefits and pay taxes. This forces turnover and works against the positive “cultural assimilation” that negates the difference between contractors and employees. 🍺🥌

[chengkp75]

The maritime industry has always tended to be a special case in most countries and legal systems.  Many countries have slews of laws specific to the maritime, some important, some not, some impactful, some not.  For instance, in the US, no one can garnish a mariner's wages other than the IRS and a spouse (or ex-spouse).  In Scandinavia, mariners benefit from the social security benefits of all citizens, but are exempt from the taxes that pay for those social benefits.

 

As for Viking maintaining control over the ships, it is Viking who promulgates the SMS (Safety Management System) manual, that is what we call "write what you do, and do what you write".  All ships are required by the IMO's ISM (International Safety Management) Code to formulate an SMS that describes how the company does virtually every aspect of business, both at the corporate level, but also down to sometimes very fine detail of shipboard operations and procedures, that everyone working on a Viking ship have to adhere to.  Both the company (both Viking and Wilhelmsen) and third party auditors will audit the ships every year to ensure that the SMS is followed to the letter, and to locate areas where improvements can be made.

 

An example of the system is the Dali, currently holding up a portion of the Key Bridge in Baltimore.  The ship is owned by Grace Ocean.  It is operated for Grace Ocean by Synergy Marine.  Synergy provides the crew and deals with the day to day operation of the ship (getting food and fuel to the ship, spare parts, hiring port agents, etc).  The ship is under charter to Maersk (AP Moller Group).  So, the ship is carrying cargo for Maersk, but since this is not a "bareboat charter", but a "time charter", Synergy continues to operate the ship and crew daily, and Maersk only tells Synergy where to go, when to get there, and what cargo to load/discharge.

[SailorPaulH]

On 5/9/2024 at 3:16 AM, duquephart said:

Finally got to do a bridge tour while aboard Jupiter just recently. Very interesting and informative. 

How/where do you sign up for a bridge tour?

[duquephart]

2 minutes ago, SailorPaulH said:

How/where do you sign up for a bridge tour?

 

Guest Services - as soon as you can after boarding.

[janetcbl]

56 minutes ago, duquephart said:

 

Guest Services - as soon as you can after boarding.

They may also offer behind the scenes of the kitchen and laundry, both very interesting. I think it depends how many sea days your cruise has; the more sea days, the more “Behind the Scene Tours.” We also got a “tour” of the engine room via a talk with photos in the Theater. 

[duquephart]

2 minutes ago, janetcbl said:

They may also offer behind the scenes of the kitchen and laundry, both very interesting. I think it depends how many sea days your cruise has; the more sea days, the more “Behind the Scene Tours.” We also got a “tour” of the engine room via a talk with photos in the Theater. 

 

Engine room and bridge are at the discretion of the captain.

[Heidi13]

On 5/11/2024 at 5:44 AM, Mike07 said:

 

 

The issues with this model --- it turns into something like Boeing. Everybody "works" for Boeing, but nobody is responsible for the end product, because "I'm just a contractor."

 

I appreciate the insight into the industry we've seen here, and not just what I put on a Viking survey. I know many ship departments are often outsourced (casino, art auctions, gift shop, and other departments). I realize the maritime industry is also using techs and engineers to take care of the propulsion and electrical systems.

 

I personally do not find contractors to increase quality or knowledge. Yes, I have to work daily with contractors, and yes, I can give you horror stories. And yes, I could sell out, easily, and see a 50-100% salary increase by going contractor. This isn't Nam though, and I still have standards.

 

With respect to Viking and the cruise lines/shipping companies I worked for, I wouldn't agree that the Marine Industry is manned on the "Boeing" model, as almost all crew are responsible for the end product.

 

As the Chief posted, manning agencies employed by the cruise lines, in the countries that supply large quantities of hotel ratings, are little more than personnel departments specialising in recruitment. With Viking, the manning agencies recommend employees, who must pass 2 company interviews before they commence onboard training and familiarisation. They are only hired upon completion of the ship based training, with a number not even making it to this stage. (As per Director Hotel Ops, who served on Viking Sun as GM for a number of weeks)

 

The manning agencies are involved in the recruitment phase and once hired by the cruise line, the ratings only work for a single employer, who provides all the tools, equipment and safety gear to perform the role. All of these factors do not meet my definition of a contractor, who is normally responsible to providing their own equipment, works for multiple employers and is responsible for their own transportation.

 

The ratings, if not maintaining the required standards for the position will be terminated by the cruise line, not the manning agency.

 

It will be similar for Deck & Engineering Officers supplied by the ship manager. If any officer is not meeting the required standards outlined in the SMS, they will be returned to the ship manager and replaced by a new officer.

[Mike07]

57 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 

The manning agencies are involved in the recruitment phase and once hired by the cruise line, the ratings only work for a single employer, who provides all the tools, equipment and safety gear to perform the role. All of these factors do not meet my definition of a contractor, who is normally responsible to providing their own equipment, works for multiple employers and is responsible for their own transportation.

 

 

 

This conversation has gone so sideways that I have quit reading it as people started putting words in my mouth or making assumptions about what I was saying.

 

What you're describing, to me, are the headhunters and manning agencies that find and recruit people to fill the roles for Viking.

 

I'll write what I write about the way I call the shots during a Viking cruise on that written exit survey they ask us to take. If people think I'm a jerk because of it, so be it. But, I personally have not found the bridge crew of Viking to be all that friendly and personable, and I personally was curious whether they were contracted out or its an actual FT position within Viking. I think I stated earlier that I'm not necessarily looking for a Captain Kate like Celebrity celebrity, but she also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to Viking, either.

 

When people give everything a blanket four or five stars, that irks me b/c no company out there is doing everything perfectly. We've had several threads that have mentioned the decline in food quality from when Viking first start, to pre-COVID, to post-COVID to right now... while a completely different subject matter, if the vast majority of Viking cruisers simply give every river, ocean, and expedition ship blanket full stars on everything they do, Viking has no reason to strive to make anything better. So, when I say the Captain and the officer crew are largely apathetic to disinterested in passengers... I'm still expected to give them full remarks?

 

As silly as some may consider this, there are entire general counsels at places like Uber, Doordash and other gig service companies that make it abundantly clear that uber drivers and doordashers are not employees and not work for them. I'm sure the "agreement" to become one of those roles is insane how long and how many pages it is.

 

Edited May 13 by Mike07

[Mike07]

14 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

An example of the system is the Dali, currently holding up a portion of the Key Bridge in Baltimore.  The ship is owned by Grace Ocean.  It is operated for Grace Ocean by Synergy Marine.  Synergy provides the crew and deals with the day to day operation of the ship (getting food and fuel to the ship, spare parts, hiring port agents, etc).  The ship is under charter to Maersk (AP Moller Group).  So, the ship is carrying cargo for Maersk, but since this is not a "bareboat charter", but a "time charter", Synergy continues to operate the ship and crew daily, and Maersk only tells Synergy where to go, when to get there, and what cargo to load/discharge.

 

 

Thanks for the read. I legitimately and non-sarcastically found the entire post to be a good read. Though, good luck in international maritime law and finding responsibility for all of this. Though, I'm sure some maritime lawyer in Annapolis will be looking to buy a few more neighboring homes for his oceanfront property.

Edited May 13 by Mike07

[ropomo]

On our recent TA, Ft. Lauderdale-Barcelona-Rome, we had the opportunity to have a "Provisioning" tour. We were taken through the stores areas (definitely not passenger areas on decks below A), dry, fresh cooled, frozen, prep, etc. There was even a special chilled area for flowers and arrangements. Conducted by a combination of the Hotel Manager and the Provisioning Manager. Spoke to details of logistics of getting supplied to the ship, where the various commodities came from, etc. It was very interesting to see how the stores are handled and thawed for the kitchens. We did not go to the more mundane stores like toilet paper, etc. but would have liked to have seen that as well.

 

Also did a bridge tour that was conducted personally by the Captain. It was extensive and lasted about an hour and a quarter or more. After a detailed tour of the bridge proper, he took us into his "situation room" where we gathered around a large conference table with work stations. He was at the head of the table with a podium touch screen. He proceeded to walk us through various emergencies that his screen was displayed on a huge flat screen opposite of him. He showed how he could drill down to an individual cabin and monitor the temperature, temperature trends, humidity in any individual cabin along with pulling up live video from anywhere on the ship. He was very engaging with us and entertained any and all questions. Very informative! One thing I found interesting and made perfect sense, in the case of fire in an area, the area is sealed off in the corridors and the pax are evacuated to a clear area via the verandas by opening the partitions and moving the pax down until they can exit through a cabin in a clear area. He also got into some very interesting discussion of how decisions were made for fresh water on board (generate at sea vs. taking on potable water in port) and many other topics.

[ericosmith]

3 hours ago, Mike07 said:

But, I personally have not found the bridge crew of Viking to be all that friendly and personable, and I personally was curious whether they were contracted out or its an actual FT position within Viking. I think I stated earlier that I'm not necessarily looking for a Captain Kate like Celebrity celebrity, but she also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to Viking, either.

Personally I don't get all the fixation about who the captain is, etc.  Or how engaging or funny they are.  I'd rather they'd spend their time concentrating on safety rather than being entertaining.

[CDNPolar]

10 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

When people give everything a blanket four or five stars, that irks me b/c no company out there is doing everything perfectly. We've had several threads that have mentioned the decline in food quality from when Viking first start, to pre-COVID, to post-COVID to right now... while a completely different subject matter, if the vast majority of Viking cruisers simply give every river, ocean, and expedition ship blanket full stars on everything they do, Viking has no reason to strive to make anything better. So, when I say the Captain and the officer crew are largely apathetic to disinterested in passengers... I'm still expected to give them full remarks?

 

 

 

Now, a comment on the surveys that Viking ask us to fill out at the end of a cruise.  This I fully support you @Mike07

 

I have never on an Ocean ship been persuaded to fill this out at any level of satisfaction, BUT have on a River Cruise been told more than once and on more than one cruise that if we don't give the highest mark possible (forget what that is, but probably exceeds expectations) that the crew will not get a bonus or something.  I personally found that to be deplorable that we were being "instructed" on how to answer and in fact made to feel guilty that there would be consequences for the crew if we did not give the highest rating.