Is this a new Gratuities policy?

[startedwithamouse]

We get Plus, so it's a non-issue for us. 

 

 

[geoherb]

The language has been on the Princess website for a long time. It's not new. I remember seeing several posts about it in Facebook groups years ago.

 

And no matter what people say, they don't really know what happens. Crew members have said different things. Some have said that they have to turn in all cash tips. If the passenger has left on the automatic charge, the cash tip is returned to the crew member. Others have said that they get to keep cash tips regardless of whether the passenger has left on the automatic charge or removed it. 

 

The simplest thing to do is leave on the automatic charge (or pay it by purchasing Plus or Premier package). Tip extra if you want. The crew members have signed up for contracts with Princess. Many of them come back over and over again. However Princess is doling out the money collected, they must be satisfied.

[ldubs]

43 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

I couldn't agree more.  The simplest thing would to just add $16 or $17 per day to cruise fares.

 

Depending on how many pull the CA I suspect, once it moves from being a gratuity to an expense, corporate accounting rules and the need to keep shareholders happy would result in more than a $16 increase.  (wow, that was a long sentence).   

 

I do not feel deceived or have any moral outrage about the current system.  I would be OK with eliminating the CA with a fare increase. But only if tipping would then be no longer expected.   

[JimmyVWine]

It's would be best to look at this from 50,000 feet the way the people who run the business do.  They have obviously looked at this from every angle.  Some of their findings would include:

• In areas of the world where tipping is not the custom, we can build the added crew wage into the basic fare and people will accept that. No further Crew Appreciation will be required.   It will look like our company is paying the crew a living wage, but in the end, the customer is doing that through higher fares.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• In areas of the world where tipping is the custom, we are better served by offering low fares and adding on a mandatory Crew Appreciation to boost the crew's wages.  If we build that cost into the basic fare while correspondingly doing away with the Crew Appreciation and other cruise lines do not follow suit, we will lose business. Cruise price comparison websites will not account for this change and our prices will appear facially higher.  By adding on the Crew Appreciation, our crew will earn a living wage based in part on their salary and in part on the mandatory Crew Appreciation.  We get to the same place as the model listed above, but do so in a less direct way.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• Our crew members will earn more money and be happier if we make the Crew Appreciation mandatory as well as adding on an 18% charge to items ordered on board. If we go back to the "envelope" system, too many people will conveniently forget to hand out envelopes and our crew will suffer because of it.  And with Medallion Ordering, guests will be served by countless crew members each cruise, and short of the guests walking around with a wad of singles, those crew members will not get rewarded.  And we want to sell our cruises as being "cashless".  
• Best yet, let's build out packages that bundle all of the nickel and diming into one daily fare and place Crew Appreciation into those packages.  People will know up front what they are paying and what they are getting.  Our marketing team can put together glossy one-pagers that show how beneficial the packages are.  Make sure to throw in color photos of garish-looking ice cream sundaes.   

[Torfamm]

15 minutes ago, memoak said:

If they upped the cruise fare you would then find posters not believing it goes to crew

This is probably true.  What I'm hearing sounds more like an objection to the pooling of the amount paid as "crew appreciation" than to the total paid. Cruisers have always been asked to pay out a recommended amount for crew in addition to their cruise fare, at least on mass market cruise lines as far back as the early 80's when I first started cruising. 

 

In the past it was cash divided into several envelopes and handed to individual crew members. I'm not at all sure in thinking about it now that those funds weren't pooled.  Everyone assumed that the person receiving the envelope kept the money in the envelope, but it's entirely possible that cruise lines may have been pooling those funds as well.

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

It's would be best to look at this from 50,000 feet the way the people who run the business do.  They have obviously looked at this from every angle.  Some of their findings would include:

• In areas of the world where tipping is not the custom, we can build the added crew wage into the basic fare and people will accept that. No further Crew Appreciation will be required.   It will look like our company is paying the crew a living wage, but in the end, the customer is doing that through higher fares.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• In areas of the world where tipping is the custom, we are better served by offering low fares and adding on a mandatory Crew Appreciation to boost the crew's wages.  If we build that cost into the basic fare while correspondingly doing away with the Crew Appreciation and other cruise lines do not follow suit, we will lose business. Cruise price comparison websites will not account for this change and our prices will appear facially higher.  By adding on the Crew Appreciation, our crew will earn a living wage based in part on their salary and in part on the mandatory Crew Appreciation.  We get to the same place as the model listed above, but do so in a less direct way.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• Our crew members will earn more money and be happier if we make the Crew Appreciation mandatory as well as adding on an 18% charge to items ordered on board. If we go back to the "envelope" system, too many people will conveniently forget to hand out envelopes and our crew will suffer because of it.  And with Medallion Ordering, guests will be served by countless crew members each cruise, and short of the guests walking around with a wad of singles, those crew members will not get rewarded.  And we want to sell our cruises as being "cashless".  
• Best yet, let's build out packages that bundle all of the nickel and diming into one daily fare and place Crew Appreciation into those packages.  People will know up front what they are paying and what they are getting.  Our marketing team can put together glossy one-pagers that show how beneficial the packages are.  Make sure to throw in color photos of garish-looking ice cream sundaes.   

 

Except, CA is technically not mandatory.  

[JimmyVWine]

16 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

When I'm In a restaurant paying a bill with a service charge or tip added to the bill I always ask the staff first if the staff get all the tips if I pay by card

 

And if they say no I ask them to remove the tip and pay them cash instead

Why do you assume that the cash goes into their pocket directly instead of being turned in?  Servers are required to report to their employer what their tip was as there are tax implications for the restaurant owner so they need to know what was paid and to whom.  And if tips are pooled, then the cash goes into the pool.  Failing to turn in your tips is a fireable offense.  As a customer, there is no way to (legally) beat the system that the state/country/restaurant has put into place. You might like to think that you are somehow creating an economic paradigm that improves upon what has been established, but rest assured, you are not.  

[PMGS247]

45 minutes ago, Bgwest said:

As another poster so adroitly put it, it’s the cruise line that is short changing the crew and shifting blame to the passengers. 

If the cruise lines would simply do the right thing and pay THEIR employees a living wage and dispense with this mindless shell game, there are many (most) who would pay the fare and go on with life. And could then tip for extraordinary service. 

 

I don't disagree, but it's a fact that the power does remain in the hands of the passenger to short change the crew or not.

 

I think it's a garbage move on behalf of the cruise line to put passengers in this position but regardless of how you want to use the word "blame", it is still a fact that the passenger has full control and their decision to remove these charges will come out of the pockets of the crew.

 

Want to discuss how it's a bad system and they should change it? A fine topic to discuss...but has no bearing on the fact that the immediate impact of someone removing a DSC takes funds away from the crew.

 

If they shift to a system where they pay a proper base wage, (A) I'll be the first to celebrate it, but (B) the base cost of cruising will go up to cover it. You're paying it either way, but in the current system you have the option to opt out. I personally don't think you should, even if you disagree with the concept of the system.

[Torfamm]

18 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

When I'm In a restaurant paying a bill with a service charge or tip added to the bill I always ask the staff first if the staff get all the tips if I pay by card

 

And if they say no I ask them to remove the tip and pay them cash instead

 

Because I don't want to benefit the business I want to benefit the staff serving in the business

 

Same as on the cruise line

 

That's consistent not hypocritical 

 

In UK you don't even have to ask that question anymore in restaurants as by law the tips have to be added to staff wages and we also have minimum wages as well 

 

The restaurant wouldn't last a month if they tried to do what Princess are doing

 

The bad publicity would close them down (alongside the authorities)

A quick search shows that tip pooling is legal in the UK. There is no guarantee the the individual who serves you is the one who keeps the amount you tip even if you tip in cash.

 

Are you saying that you don't think the funds paid as crew appreciation are actually paid out to crew members as described in the policy or just objecting to the way the policy works?

[JimmyVWine]

5 minutes ago, Torfamm said:

Are you saying that you don't think the funds paid as crew appreciation are actually paid out to crew members as described in the policy or just objecting to the way the policy works?

Seems to me that the biggest gripe is the nomenclature.  If Princess changed "Crew Appreciation" to "Crew Wage Supplementation", it appears that this would mollify many here.  But see "Romeo and Juliet": Act 2; Scene 2; Lines 38-49.

Edited May 29 by JimmyVWine

[memoak]

This argument has been going forever. Back in the day the MDR would be empty on last night as people went to the buffet to avoid the wait staff. Now they simply line up at guest services to remove the tips. Same people different method of avoiding paying tips. 

[memoak]

1 minute ago, JimmyVWine said:

Seems to me that the biggest gripe is the nomenclature.  If Princess changed "Crew Appreciation" to "Crew Wage Supplementation", it appears that this would mollify many here.  But see "Romeo and Juliet": Act 2; Scene 2

Nothing would mollify most. They just don’t want to pay or they would be passing out tips to every person the the buffet who fetched them that free cup of coffee or the person who hands them a sandwich in the IC

Edited May 29 by memoak

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, memoak said:

This argument has been going forever. Back in the day the MDR would be empty on last night as people went to the buffet to avoid the wait staff. Now they simply line up at guest services to remove the tips. Same people different method of avoiding paying tips. 

 

I wonder what percent of passengers remove the auto-gratuities.  Back in the good old envelope days, the number of empty dinner seats on the last night was pretty significant.   

[Interestedcruisefan]

11 minutes ago, PMGS247 said:

 

I don't disagree, but it's a fact that the power does remain in the hands of the passenger to short change the crew or not.

 

I think it's a garbage move on behalf of the cruise line to put passengers in this position but regardless of how you want to use the word "blame", it is still a fact that the passenger has full control and their decision to remove these charges will come out of the pockets of the crew.

 

Want to discuss how it's a bad system and they should change it? A fine topic to discuss...but has no bearing on the fact that the immediate impact of someone removing a DSC takes funds away from the crew.

 

If they shift to a system where they pay a proper base wage, (A) I'll be the first to celebrate it, but (B) the base cost of cruising will go up to cover it. You're paying it either way, but in the current system you have the option to opt out. I personally don't think you should, even if you disagree with the concept of the system.

Only way cruise lines will do the right thing  is if they are forced into it

 

Being honest the only people I'm worried about wages on the ship are the ones who give me great service anyway so I can cash tip them 

 

Same for everybody else who stops giving the money to Princess 

 

Don't think some of the higher paid staff on the ship need to share in this anyway? 

 

It's always been the lower paid staff I've been worried about

 

Not the entire crew?

[Interestedcruisefan]

13 minutes ago, JimmyVWine said:

Seems to me that the biggest gripe is the nomenclature.  If Princess changed "Crew Appreciation" to "Crew Wage Supplementation", it appears that this would mollify many here.  But see "Romeo and Juliet": Act 2; Scene 2; Lines 38-49.

And the fact the majority would then start asking difficult questions and immediately removing if they did

 

Is the very reason they are headlining this as

 

"Daily Crew Recognition"

 

As we all know full well now

 

Which allows the many to make false assumptions (including me til now) and I class myself as shrewd and experienced normally

 

We should all know though that cruise ships are the absolute masters at squeezing every opportunity for extra revenue from us with a clever offer or demonstration or free piece of artwork or gemstone etc etc etc

 

So much work goes into all this 

Edited May 29 by Interestedcruisefan

[Kineticoh20]

My thread has gone sideways a bit as I guess this topic can. My point was and still is it looks like Princess reserves the right to not give Gratuities as additional monies but rather as base pay and can hold said monies throughout the year. I would like to hope that Gratuities were given even pooled but given to workers at end of each cruise.

[dreams_of_travel]

This whole discussion has been interesting.  I used to get the Princess Plus with every cruise b/c I thought it was a good value, but not any more, for various reasons.  As I now book standard cruise fares, I am wondering how to reconcile/approach the automatic cruise appreciation, as well as the auto gratuity placed on drinks.  In theory if I allow the automatic cruise appreciation, then I shouldn't have to pay any gratuity on drinks I order.  In that line of thought, what percentage would one calculate is for the front line service staff (room steward, dining room, bar)?  Not trying to be "stingy", just not wanting to pay more for something I'm already paying. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

 

ETA: Additional question - If I keep the auto gratuity/cruise appreciation, can I remove the per drink 18% charge?

Edited May 29 by dreams_of_travel

[mtnesterz]

6 minutes ago, ldubs said:

I wonder what percent of passengers remove the auto-gratuities...

Several years ago, Princess said 10% removed auto gratuities. IIRC, that was before the packages. Now, probably fewer.

 

[memoak]

1 minute ago, dreams_of_travel said:

This whole discussion has been interesting.  I used to get the Princess Plus with every cruise b/c I thought it was a good value, but not any more, for various reasons.  As I now book standard cruise fares, I am wondering how to reconcile/approach the automatic cruise appreciation, as well as the auto gratuity placed on drinks.  In theory if I allow the automatic cruise appreciation, then I shouldn't have to pay any gratuity on drinks I order.  In that line of thought, what percentage would one calculate is for the front line service staff (room steward, dining room, bar)?  Not trying to be "stingy", just not wanting to pay more for something I'm already paying. 🤷🏻‍♀️

We always take Plus because we like our cocktails and it saves us lots of money. W still get envelopes and tip out extra to steward, wait staff and favorite bartenders. Believe me when we see those people on a future cruise they do remember us and get incredible service

[nini]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I'll make my typical "one and done" post to a tipping thread.  DSC (I refuse to call them "gratuities", regardless of what the cruise line calls them), is, and always has been the majority of the crew's "compensation package".  In the past, the DSC made up more of the total compensation, and today, there is a minimum wage requirement (more on this later), but even today, the DSC makes up more than half of the crew's compensation.  This is clearly spelled out in their employment contract, that "x" amount is monthly wage, and "y" amount is DSC, which is spelled out as variable depending on passenger participation.

 

As for the minimum wage I mentioned above, the typical cabin steward pay is around $1200-1400/month, but the minimum wage is only $666/month this year.  Until the removal of DSC reaches the point where the crew are receiving less than the minimum $666/month, the cruise line does not have to make up the difference.

 

Whether or not a cruise line uses DSC to pay the crew or not, if they didn't, they would just raise the cruise fare to cover what the labor market would require as total compensation for the crew.  There are two reasons the cruise lines use DSC:

1.  It allows them to post the lowest possible cruise fare

2.  It provides them with a "carrot and stick" management of the crew's service by making it dependent on every crew member to self-police their colleagues in order to get the maximum compensation, and allows the cruise line to shift the "blame" for reducing the compensation to the passenger.

 

I don't agree with it, and have never liked it, but it isn't going away, and those who remove the DSC to "tip" those who they feel did extra, are rewarding those people less than a traditional tip would (since they have already removed part of their compensation), and punishing others who may have done a fine, but not excellent, job by removing their compensation.

 

 

Thank you!

[ldubs]

10 minutes ago, Kineticoh20 said:

My thread has gone sideways a bit as I guess this topic can. My point was and still is it looks like Princess reserves the right to not give Gratuities as additional monies but rather as base pay and can hold said monies throughout the year. I would like to hope that Gratuities were given even pooled but given to workers at end of each cruise.

 

OK, this is just choice of words, but I don't think they are given as part of "base pay".  They are however compensation.  

 

I tend to agree with your original point about the grats not going to those specific staff that served me, or not even knowing where or how the pooled grats are distributed.  Under the current system,  I can only hope that those most deserving are being appropriately rewarded.  

[dreams_of_travel]

3 minutes ago, memoak said:

We always take Plus because we like our cocktails and it saves us lots of money. W still get envelopes and tip out extra to steward, wait staff and favorite bartenders. Believe me when we see those people on a future cruise they do remember us and get incredible service

No doubt you get stellar service on future cruises.  I am not much of a drinker, so Plus is a bit lost on me.  I know they make a ton off of me b/c I am a one cocktail, and maybe two glasses of wine at dinner light weight. LOL!   Not to sidebar the thread, but if they would give us the choice of Princess Plus @ $40/$60/$80 per day, then I would gladly resume getting the $40/day Plus package.  

[rosevew]

Nothing new, been like that for quite some time now.

[TRLD]

12 hours ago, latebloomer56 said:

This sounds odd? All monies pooled and doled out as corporate choses? Maybe the room steward who took care of us doesn't get what is recommended we pay? If we pay 18.00 (would expect the line to take 3.00 handle fee)  a day would hope he would get at least 8.00 of this the rest goes to food service. Bars get separate tips.This sounds like it doesn't happen very fairly. The extra we tend to give to crew separately do they get to keep this?

No, the only money that the cruise line can remove from the  pool is exactly what the policy says, credit card fees for those crew appreciation amounts paid by credit card.  This is exactly as stated is SEC rules for corporations receiving and distributing gratuities.  This is limited to exactly the same amount charged to the company by their credit card handling company.  Credit card processing fees generally range from 1.5% to 3.5% for retail customers, but can be lower for very large companies.  Using those numbers out of $18 the CC processing fees would from 27 cents to  63 cents,  far lower than $3.

 

SEC accounting rules apply because even though the major cruise line holding companies are not US companies, but they are listed on US exchanges and therefore have to comply with US accounting rules.

[Torfamm]

15 minutes ago, dreams_of_travel said:

This whole discussion has been interesting.  I used to get the Princess Plus with every cruise b/c I thought it was a good value, but not any more, for various reasons.  As I now book standard cruise fares, I am wondering how to reconcile/approach the automatic cruise appreciation, as well as the auto gratuity placed on drinks.  In theory if I allow the automatic cruise appreciation, then I shouldn't have to pay any gratuity on drinks I order.  In that line of thought, what percentage would one calculate is for the front line service staff (room steward, dining room, bar)?  Not trying to be "stingy", just not wanting to pay more for something I'm already paying. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

 

ETA: Additional question - If I keep the auto gratuity/cruise appreciation, can I remove the per drink 18% charge?

The crew appreciation fee has nothing to do with the 18% charge on drinks and other optional purchases like specialty dining that are not included in your cruise fare.