Can you handle another tipping thread? What I saw.

[dakrewser]

I'd just like to point out, some of us come from countries that do not have a tipping culture. Here in Australia tipping is not very common at all,

True, but there is a service charge added to the bill, right?

[Kami's pal]

I continue to believe that tips are up to the individual. Some people are generous and tip a lot. Others are not so generous and tip very little. It is still their money and their decision. The cruise lines should not be telling people what to tip and adding automatic gratuities, especially for the behind the scenes employees. The cruise lines should pay their employees what they are worth. If they need more money to pay them, they should charge more for the cruise.

 

"especially for behind the scenes employees"

 

In June when I returned from cruise with HAL on Noordam, I reported my experience with this (then) very new policy. My message was very unpopular; in fact someone asked if I "protested too much". Perhaps that post is still on this board, or on Foder's.

 

I too was concerned with the behind the scenes staff, especially as we were told that this included the "highly trained kitchen staff" . I believe these are the chefs! Why are chefs needing part of a pool of gratuities? Are their wages so low that the only way HAL can keep them is to guarantee gratuity revenue? Also, since 30% (we WERE told exactly that by PA announcement on board the ship) is being divided among many behind the scenes staff, how do the supervisors know which crew person was so lax that customers did not want to tip? Are we to stiff everybody when the food isn't what we expect? Or do we tip anyway so that we can then add $ to the well earned gratuities we want to give to our dining and cabin stewards.

I too believe that HAL is using a sneaky strategy to coercive all customers into paying extra ($10.00 pppd, which is $280.00 per couple for 14 days), and then adding the usual gratuities $ to the very hard working crew, because HAL's leaflet titled "you need to know" warns that "dining and cabin stewards ARE REQUIRED TO TURN IN any tips they have received directly from those guests who have removed OR REDUCED the gratuities on their onboard accounts."

 

And I have heard from many reliable sources, including management staff on NOORDAM that gratuities ARE THE MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME for dining and cabin staff. They get room and board, medical and dental while on board, and $50 -100 per month. Their contract is 11 months, compared to 4 months for entertainment director. And they DO NOT receive, on HAL anymore, a full fare home if they work the full trem. I was told (by one of the crew that came on a tour with us) that 1/12 of their fare is deducted from the revenues in the pooled gratuities.

 

So I say again, mandatory (as in NCL) or automatic gratuities that may not be altered without punishing an entire crew are not gratuities. They are an extra charge because HAL is raising revenue by removing $ from some crew to pay others.

[OdGregg]

True, but there is a service charge added to the bill, right?

No. No service charge. The only charge I've seen on a restaurant bill is corkage, and even that's generally only 50c or $1 per person. Oh, sorry, sometimes there can be an extra charge for public holidays (as staff get paid higher rates on public holidays).

 

Cheers,

 

Richard

[Globaliser]

The "European" theory really isn't valid either. Many, if not most, European restaurants add a service charge to the bill so why would adding the $10/day be any different.

Actually, few European restaurants "add" a service charge in any real sense of the word. You are presented with a menu with prices that already include service, and the bill total already includes service. Nothing extra is added on in addition to the price on the menu, and you are not required or expected to leave a tip.

 

This is a real cultural reason why Europeans often simply don't expect to have to pay anything in addition to the posted price for an item, and are offended by the idea that they are expected to put their hands in their pockets and pay more than the agreed price. You can see why, from this perspective, it can look like extortion or bribery - and why there is such reluctance to do it.

 

The big exception to this is here in the UK, where we have an unholy mixture of added service charges (ie a specific 10%-20% added to the bill on top of the menu price) and "service not included" (ie you are expected to tip about 10%), with the very occasional example of the European system.

 

The European system also shows why the idea that a tipping system is necessary to secure good service is a complete fallacy. Some of the best restaurant service in the world is provided by staff who do not expect to see any tips. If they're being paid properly, professionalism routinely produces good service.

 

The same could work well for cruise lines - although not if the crew don't get paid properly by the line.

 

Personally, I prefer the New Zealand system: In many restaurants, I was warned, don't even try to tip - you will cause offence if you do. :)

[Kami's pal]

"The European system also shows why the idea that a tipping system is necessary to secure good service is a complete fallacy. Some of the best restaurant service in the world is provided by staff who do not expect to see any tips. If they're being paid properly, professionalism routinely produces good service."

 

I didn't know that. I assume they are more amused than offended by North Americans who routinely leave tips.

 

"The same could work well for cruise lines - although not if the crew don't get paid properly by the line"

 

EXACTLY! Well said.

[Sue's Mom]

Globaliser hit it on the head so far as Europeans and UKers are concerned. DH and I have been to the US more than enough times to accept tipping as a way of life. But one couple who we are cruising with are most uncomfortable with tipping (other than the 10% which we usually leave in restaurants). It seems to me that the better they know the person who performs the service the more relaxed they are about tipping. Don't really understand them myself but - each to his own. However, the couple do know about the 10% and I am sure that they won't be removing it!

[Globaliser]

I assume they are more amused than offended by North Americans who routinely leave tips.

I think European restaurant staff are more than just amused - they're laughing all the way to the bank! (Kiwis are a different kettle of fish, as they have a strong tradition of egalitarianism that is often genuinely offended by the idea that their hard work can be bought with tips.)

[trubey]

On our May Westerdam cruise, Cruise Director Gary Walker, a Brit who now lives in Fla., announced from the stage that most of those who eliminated the auto-tip were Europeans.

 

There were pax holding passports from 38 nations on our cruise. More than half of the pax were non-U.S. passport holders.

 

Perhaps, in some cases, it's a cultural thing?

 

Indeed it is! Where we live in Europe, tax and gratuity are ALWAYS included in the price the customer sees. I find this very comforting, as there are no little 30% surprises at the end of your meal, your $17,000 car does not cost $19,000, and your new CD player actually IS $49.95.

 

I don't know whether this is the law or just custom, but I wish it were the same everywhere!

 

Lane

[jazzsea]

Holland America has several ways to add the "tips" to the price of the cruise. They can't legally add to the port charges but they could add it to the Government Taxes and Fees which are listed as "non discountable fees". TAs do not make commission on port charges or the "non discountable fees".

 

Holland America could also add the "tips" as a service charge in addition to the above charges.

 

It will happen eventually in one form or another.

[98Charlie]

saltydog28 - Regarding my comment that tipped staff makes less than $100 per month: I failed to finish the sentence with "in pay from the cruise lines".

 

Over the course of my time on the boards and from employees on various cruise lines I have understood that the stewards and wait team earn very little in base pay from the cruise lines. The figure most often stated on the CC boards is actually $50.

 

I have no hard figures from any definitive source. Employees and management are very reluctant to say anything about the pay system. The closest I've seen to a first hand account of base pay was posted by a CCer that married a crew member. Her's was a $50 quote.

 

The crew does receive room and board. On some lines they have to purchase some of their uniform.

 

But: (ascending to the soap box again)

The reality is that you, the passenger, are hiring employees for the length of your cruise. You are free to pay them as you see fit.

 

For a combined $10 per day they will clean your room, make your bed, pick up & deliver your laundry, turn down your bed, remove the dishes from room service, wait on you like royalty at dinner, have your beverage waiting at your seat when you arrive, suggest foods to try, bring both entrees when you can't decide, brush the crumbs from the table, etc. etc. etc. all with a smile and knowing that some will not pay them a penny.

 

For these, your employees for the cruise: It's not a tip. It's not a gratuity. It is indeed their pay.

 

Thank you for your kind attention,

 

Charlie (stepping down once again)

[divinggirl]

! (Kiwis are a different kettle of fish, as they have a strong tradition of egalitarianism that is often genuinely offended by the idea that their hard work can be bought with tips.)

 

How true!! When we were in NZ, it was actually nice to pay what was on the bill. Ironically, we had a server from Baltimore in NZ (unbelievable) and I asked her how it was better than home, and she said they make more $ so she doesn't miss the tips. The only time I wanted to tip was my divemasters, and was only successful in tipping one young guy who spent an entire day driving just the two of us all over the country to dive. After much pleading, I was able to get him to accept some $, but not until after invoking the "grab yourself a beer and some dinner on us" line. Sometimes a tip is earned and warranted even when it' s not expected, and sometimes expected when unwarranted!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

When we were on the Maasdam in May and this new automatic tipping policy went into affect, those passengers who decided to opt out of this auto tip were given a form to complete and then they received a "form" letter from the captain.

Has this been stopped?

It is sad that so many people are opting to have that automatic tipping removed and you can bet many of them still give anyone a tip.

[JohnR49er]

Just another example in the "dumbing" down of the traditional cruise. They needed to fill all the rooms and I guess they are. Am I a snob? Well I probably am. I could go to a resort amd spend my time with the National Lampoon vacationers, and thats what cruising seems to be turning into.

 

Fire Away !!!!!!!!!!

[98Charlie]

JohnR49er

 

Nothing to fire at. It is change, change is inevitable. Businesses find a need and fill that need for a profit. If, to be profitable, they must include tips or impose a service charge that is what will happen.

 

If there is a line that doesn't, and they can still make a profit, they will stay in business and passengers that feel the same as you will pay their money and enjoy their cruise.

 

With 2000 passengers on board (plus or minus) we have always found others that share common interests and some that we would not care to associate with. I'm sure there are those who would not care to share time with DW & I. We are all snob's in our own way.

[lipoppop]

If HAL would increase the cost of the cruise via a tax, increase of the basic charge or whatever, and pay the staff a satisfactory wage they could put this thing to bed permanently.

 

Some high prices cruise lines are very specific that tips are included.

 

From the posts I don't see anything that is 100% clear on how much the cabin/wait staff earns. A $50 per month is mentioned but no definitive basis is given. Whatever it is I don't think it is enough, including tips that were given in the past because so many people stiffed the staff. Whether the $10/day increased thier total package is also unclear although I heard, no good source given, that there is an increase. Offset by the new policy of charging air fare no doubt.

 

I also wonder if there is a difference in what the Indonesian/ Filipno staff gets paid as compared to the European Pinacle staff. :confused:

[saltydog28]

98Charlie- Someone on the boards mentioned that the crew was unionized, and that they belonged to the Transport Workers Federation. I looked that up.
...I think I am reading this correctly, but I could be wrong. According to the Miami guidelines-Appendix1-2003-your average waiter/steward makes $941 US a month.
..Granted, it's not alot. But it is considerably more than $50-$100 a month.
..As for them cleaning my room- making my bed-etc..etc..
..Isn't that what I paid for when I paid my fare?
Devils advocate,
Pat.

[Kami's pal]

[quote name='saltydog28']98Charlie- Someone on the boards mentioned that the crew was unionized, and that they belonged to the Transport Workers Federation. I looked that up.
...I think I am reading this correctly, but I could be wrong. According to the Miami guidelines-Appendix1-2003-your average waiter/steward makes $941 US a month.
..Granted, it's not alot. But it is considerably more than $50-$100 a month.
..As for them cleaning my room- making my bed-etc..etc..
..Isn't that what I paid for when I paid my fare?
Devils advocate,
Pat.[/QUOTE]
Devil's Advocate:
Good idea. However, Who does Transport Workers Federation represent?

Please re read my post.

Also, I saw on PBS Spokane, an old segment of a show similar to "Back to the Floor." The venue was a cruise ship. I watched with interest as the CEO tried to do the duties of the cabin steward. And had reaffirmed that the salary of the cabin and wait staff is not enough to live on. They depend on the gratuities, even for the lowered standard of living in their homelands.
I wonder if that wage you quote is assigning $ value to room and board? Doesn't matter. If it's an American Union it only applies to American workers on American line companies.
These ships, except Pride of Aloha, (and we all know how that's turned out!) are not registered in USA so the crew do not receive the minimum wages required under American law. The crew basically are at the mercy of the cruise line with which they sign. So unless the union you quoted is regulated in the country of ship's registration, it doesn't represent the crew from a foreign ship.

[jhannah]

Ignore.

[KAKcruiser]

I totally agree. I paid for the staff services when I purchased my cruise. I do not expect to chip in for fuel or paint or replacement of carpet. I also do not expect to chip in for employees wages. I do not wish to be made to feel guilty because employees are not earning enough money. Any person who accepts a job does so with his own free will. The crew could be back in Indonesia probably making about 1/50th what they make on the cruise ship. I will tip for good service but I do not want to be forced to pay a set amount.

[KAKcruiser]

I wanted to say that I agreed with Salty Dog but my message was posted a couple down.

[dakrewser]

[quote name='OdGregg']No. No service charge. [/QUOTE]
We did see a seperate line for service charge occasionally when we were in Sydney last spring. And we were told (by local, even) that "good service" in a restaurant was usually rewarded by a 10-15% gratuity....

[dakrewser]

[quote name='98Charlie']saltydog28 - Regarding my comment that tipped staff makes less than $100 per month: I failed to finish the sentence with "in pay from the cruise lines".
[/QUOTE]
What any crew member makes is between them and the cruise line - no one held a gun to their head when they signed the contract. Its not my responsibility to supplement their salary in order that they simply do their job.

I pay the cruise line a couple of thousand bucks (as does my wife) to "hire" the services of the crew. Should some members of the crew go "above and beyond", then I will generously reward them, as well as telling their bosses about the crew member's efforts. I resent being told how much, and to whom, gratuities should be extended.

I also dislike utility-like bills which contain myriads of seperate, broken out line-items which are invariable. Roll it up into one price, tell me up front what that price is.

[dakrewser]

[quote name='divinggirl']Ironically, we had a server from Baltimore in NZ (unbelievable)[/QUOTE]
Was that in Bay of Islands? Or are there lots of ex-Marylanders waiting tables in NZ :) ?

[dakrewser]

[QUOTE=Kami's pal]Doesn't matter. If it's an American Union it only applies to American workers on American line companies.[/QUOTE]
No, it applies to all of the workers working for companies with a union contract - the union doesn't give a fig about members' nationality.

[trubey]

This all reminds me of an argument I had with my boss once, about whether to sign up for the American Express Platinum card, for which we had both had invitations. My thought was, "Why bother to impress a waiter AFTER you've finished your meal?"

I like the idea of a 'suggested gratuity', because otherwise I wouldn't have the foggiest notion. I think people tip WAY too much because they don't want to be seen as cheapskates -- and HAL has solved this for me. If they say it's the proper gratuity for 'excellent service', so be it.

Lane