Can you handle another tipping thread? What I saw.

[lknick]

[QUOTE]lknick......For what unit is the badge avatar?[/QUOTE]Military Airlift Command--Studies and Observation Group. By plan, few know of the group. SOG deals with irregular warfare and sabotage.

Yes, that's a death head wearing a baret in the center.

[Kami's pal]

I waited tables and depended on tips during my university days. I understood the system. As my skills improved I received better assignments (banguet room instead of cafeteria) and I learned to share my tips with whoever bussed my table so that together we were more efficient. But I never had to encourage the cooks or dishwashers so that they would also work harder.

Why are the gratuities being shared with the "highly trained kitchen staff" (from HAL"S leaflet 'you need to know')?

I do wish that could be explained.

[Globaliser]

[QUOTE=Kami's pal]I waited tables and depended on tips during my university days. I understood the system. As my skills improved I received better assignments (banguet room instead of cafeteria) and I learned to share my tips with whoever bussed my table so that together we were more efficient. But I never had to encourage the cooks or dishwashers so that they would also work harder.

Why are the gratuities being shared with the "highly trained kitchen staff" (from HAL"S leaflet 'you need to know')?

I do wish that could be explained.[/QUOTE]The reason is that for a long time now, "gratuities" on a ship have been nothing of the sort. They have become the primary way in which the crew are paid. But it's sort of contracted-out to the passengers, and partly voluntary - which is why there's been an increasing problem with the crew [U]not[/U] getting paid as passengers use the voluntariness of the system to avoid paying altogether.

This is why I cannot for the life of me see why it really matters whether the crew are paid properly through the fare or through an automatic (but properly notified) service charge - so long as they are properly paid. (Clearly, the "gratuities" system no longer does so.) If the crew are properly paid, they will provide good service without a tipping incentive, as anyone who has spent any time in non-tipping countries will have seen.

But including service in the fare, and making it quite clear that the fare already includes everything that used to be paid for by tips and that there is no need to tip a single cent in addition once on board, is IMHO by far the more transparent and fair system.

I don't think there are any of the following types of people on this thread, but it seems to me from reading the many other threads on the topic that the following types of people have most difficulty with the concept of an all-inclusive price with no further tipping:-[list=a][*]Those who are have tipping so deeply embedded in them culturally that they feel guilty if they are provided any service and then do not tip the provider, irrespective of however much they've already paid for the service.[*]Those who prefer a tipping system as a way of evading payment.[*]Those who like bribing staff with money to get better service than is provided to their fellow passengers - and indeed sometimes to get "service" which shouldn't really be provided to them at all.[*]Those who like the feeling of power and superiority that comes with knowing they have more money than the poorly-paid and foreign staff, and with liberally dispensing that money to demonstrate their superiority.[/list]I have a lot of sympathy with the people in the first category - cultural habits are very hard to discard, wherever they come from and whatever they are. But they are the people who are most likely to be persuaded of the merits of an all-inclusive price.

And I have no sympathy whatever with any of the other three categories.

[joanagain]

jacqueline, i am so glad that you posted what you saw with your own eyes...on my first cruise, i heard a gentleman loudly declaring that HAL had misrepresented the tipping policy and in his mind..."not required"...meant "all included"...i admit that the tipping policy was confusing, but was always very well explained at the debarkation talks...

as i was a newbie, my dinner companions informed me of how tipping was actually handled...with small envelopes and so...my sister and i had fun, preparing our envelopes and distributing them to the staff members that we were conscious of their efforts to make our trip totally enjoyable, regardless of how little we had paid for the cruise.

on our last cruise, in particular, i wanted to say "thank you" to the yumyum man, who in addition to his evening duties, was always stationed (in his cape), to open the glass doors leading from the dining room to the deck...some people seemed not even notice that he had opened the door as they glided onto the deck.

it was not a great sum of money that i gave tohim, but i was very touched, when he came over to me before we left the ship, and he said "thank you" to me.

[KAKcruiser]

I just wanted to clarify that I am not protesting tipping. I am protesting the system that HAL has initiated. I liked it the old way. The new way sounds very complicated.

[Deepswim]

I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. For that reason I do not mind giving these hard working people a tip. I will agree that it should be left to the person on how much you want to give. As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.

I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.
[/QUOTE]

For the Holland America Line that would be the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

[lknick]

[quote name='Deepswim']I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. [/QUOTE] Would love to hear detailed experiences, job category, and YOUR perception of total compensation. [QUOTE] As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. [/QUOTE] In your experience, which cruise lines are unionized and which are not. I am only knowledgeable about HAL and their unions.
[QUOTE] I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????[/QUOTE]People will complain about anything. It will only be accepted if ALL cruiselines adopted the same policy, something like pricing on airlines. Look at the threads about increased pricing for 2005 fares.

[Roboat]

[quote name='lknick'] Military Airlift Command--Studies and Observation Group. By plan, few know of the group. SOG deals with irregular warfare and sabotage.[/QUOTE]How do you rate the mamba on HAL, compared to other cruiselines? :D
(Old huey driver :cool:, supported MACV SOG 67-68)

[lknick]

Sorry, but having difficulty relating recon teams such as Mamba, Cobra and Viper to HAL.

[ekerr19]

[quote name='Deepswim']I have worked on Cruise ships and I know for a fact what the crew earns and has to go through. For that reason I do not mind giving these hard working people a tip. I will agree that it should be left to the person on how much you want to give. As for unions, they are few and far between on cruise ships. The rules that apply are what ever flag the ship is flying. That means that they will follow Panama, Bahama's rules and not USA.

I wonder if the price of the cruise went up $200+ to supply a good wage for their workers. Would people complain about that???????[/QUOTE]
Deepswim-

I too, would be very interested in your observations. I believe the crew works very hard for little compensation. I also do not believe they are represented by unions. I may be wrong, but I've yet to have any HAL crew member (I'm talking the Indonesian and Filipino crew - and not officers) tell me they are represented by labor unions. I also had the same impression as far as the registry of the ship being the indicator as to what laws apply.

[dakrewser]

[quote name='ekerr19']I believe the crew works very hard for little compensation. I also do not believe they are represented by unions. I may be wrong, but I've yet to have any HAL crew member (I'm talking the Indonesian and Filipino crew - and not officers) tell me they are represented by labor unions. I also had the same impression as far as the registry of the ship being the indicator as to what laws apply.[/QUOTE]
You are wrong. See the "[url="http://www.hollandamerica.com/pdfs/media/factsheets/CrewBenefits_FactSheet.pdf"]benefits[/url]" document at the HAL site. Not only is the crew unionized, but HAL pays the union dues. As to what they tell you, I've always found that most service personnel will tell you what you want to hear. Its just one more way of insuring bigger tips.

Then there's this whole "...works very hard for little compensation..." which others (not only you) have mentioned. These aren't indentured servants we're talking about, but free men and women who voluntarily sign the contracts. Many of whom sign on year after year. Unless they're all Mother Theresa's in disguise one has to assume they feel adequately compensated - or they'd look for a different line of work. It may be that the training is compensation enough (like a hospital intern) because it presages better remuneration later on, but that's still part of the compensation.

[Jacqueline]

Forgive me for starting this thread. It always ends the same way....

[Deepswim]

[font=Times New Roman]The position I held was an IT administrator on the ship. This was considered an Officer position so I had a lot more freedom than those in the service side of the organization. A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to work 7days a week 24 hours a day. Yes, there are times when you can get away and relax. This does not mean that it will be a full day off.; this goes on for your whole contract. Days begin to blur and time starts to mean nothing. You live work and eat with your fellow crew members. It is very important to get along. The last thing you want is to be in a hostile situation for days on end. Living is tight quarters; people will know more about you that sometimes you are willing to share. If you are lucky tight friendships form. This is your support group when things get long and troublesome. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Yes, there are perks for the crew. Room and board is supplied. For some they are living up to 4 in a room sharing bathrooms. There are special areas in the ship that are just for the crew. A lot were not allowed up on passenger decks unless they are on duty so those few areas are worth their weight in gold. On the line that I worked for they also set up special events and outing for us to participate in. They supplied training and classes to improve skills for crew members. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I worked on the ships for 2 years. During that time I saw members treated so badly that they were in complete tears. I worked through sleep deprivation, being away from my family, home and friends. If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again. I began to miss simple things most people take for granted. Living in a 10X10 room for months on end is not all that much fun, daily news of your friends back home or even the world, food that is of your choosing, finally day(s) off that you do not have anything to worry about.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

[Roboat]

[quote name='dakrewser']
Then there's this whole "...works very hard for little compensation..." which others (not only you) have mentioned. These aren't indentured servants we're talking about, but free men and women who voluntarily sign the contracts. Many of whom sign on year after year. Unless they're all Mother Theresa's in disguise one has to assume they feel adequately compensated - or they'd look for a different line of work. It may be that the training is compensation enough (like a hospital intern) because it presages better remuneration later on, but that's still part of the compensation.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more. Others who work very hard includes the clerk at 7/11 and Burger King, your kids' teachers, and the guys who paved your roads. And they don't get room and board. I'm not saying it's a dream job, but I would bet there is a lot of competition for cruise service jobs. Must be a reason.

I really liked Globalizer's post above, too.

I would hope that HAL and other lines continue the migration to "mandatory tipping". This is not a lot different than the policy some restaurants have stating that "15% service charge will be added to parties of six or more." which has been generally understood and accepted in the U.S.

[petermccue]

While I can't imagine doing the cruise line job for two years straight, I can and have done the work 24 hours a day 7 days a week thing before. For six summers I was a camp counselor then riding director for a well known summer camp. We lived four/five staff to a room, on call for whatever might happen, for rather meager pay. It's not a job for everyone, that's for sure. And we had no possibility of tips either, as they were against the camp's philosophy. No AC either, nor TV or smoking on the premises.

The first summer I worked there, I worked for three months straight, with five full days off scattered through that period. My princely salary was $950 for the three months (this was in 1988). The last year I worked there, when I worked three and a half months, and was responsible for 30 horses and probably 100 or so campers a day riding under me, I made $2200 for the whole time.

Like I've heard from many cruise ship workers, you either love it or you leave it.

As far as tipping, I'm pretty easy and go with what the cruise line tells me I should do (shrugs). I tend to tip in resturants, but I've been known to stiff waitstaff if they give horrid service. I tip my hairdresser, but that's because my hair is long and thick and coloring it a pain. I've pretty much quit doing curbside checkin for airlines, but if I use it, I tip. It's a cultural thing for Americans, the tipping. It's hard to say if we get better service because we do or not. Not having spent much time outside North America (yet) it's hard for me to compare.

Like a lot of things in life, it's all in what you're used to. I'm used to tipping and adding the taxes to my costs when I shop, so that seems normal to me. I find the concept of bartering in the Middle East or Mexico hard for me to grasp, that's harder to understand than the concept of the service charge and taxes being added in, at least for me.

V

[ekerr19]

A tip is not a tip if it is mandatory. It is a service charge. Plain and simple.

I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is - I guess it's just asking too much.

OK - I am WRONG, as it has been pointed out to me. By someone I'm sure who knows. Is it so hard to just say you disagree with me? I guess so.

I will leave this thread to those of you who KNOW.

Jacqueline, I'm glad you started the thread, don't feel bad - I still have a problem with people removing the auto-tip for no reason. As Iknick pointed out, it is mean-spirited.

dave - I checked out the link you provided - granted I've not seen it before, but I think it may be dated as HAL is no longer paying RT air for the crew, the crew is also required to pay for their uniforms now, but interesting none the less, thank you for providing it.

To everyone - I'm just trying to find out some information here, not get into a debate over working conditions on cruise ship, in the US or anywhere else. I'm also not pointing fingers at anyone, for heaven's sake... lighten up :)

[lknick]

[QUOTE]I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is - I guess it's just asking too much.[/QUOTE] Agreed, information from a HAL crew member may be of interest…but…but…Deepswim intentionally avoided telling us what line he/she worked for.

What I see is a disgruntled employee. [QUOTE]A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to work 7days a week 24 hours a day. Yes, there are times when you can get away and relax. This does not mean that it will be a full day off.; this goes on for your whole contract. Days begin to blur and time starts to mean nothing. [/QUOTE] Oh, I can react fully with examples, but no need to bore you. [QUOTE] If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again.[/QUOTE] That’s why they call it work, not vacation.

But what about pay scales for the hotel staff. That is the topic of the enquiry.

It all comes down to two things: 1/the crew is not my burden and 2/If it’s so bad, why do so many sign up for more than one contract?

Now, nothing can do anything about beliefs…as Pope Gregory found out at the Council of Worms with Martin Luther. As long as you are willing to say “Here I stand,” there you stand and absolutely nothing will make a difference.

[Kami's pal]

Globilzer
So, I was correct in thinking that the new (i.e. pooling tips) policy (May, 2004) was a way of insuring the increase of salaries for some behind the scenes staff such as chefs even though that probably would decrease the salaries of some waiters and cabin staff?
Seems a convoluted way to increase salaries. Yes, I would prefer $200 increase in fares, rather than this method.
Yes, I have voted with my checkbook. No more HAL for me.

Jacqueline, No need to apologize. Your observations were pertinent and valuable to those of us who want to travel ethically, yet not be stiffed ourselves. Those who don't want your views, or to read this discussion will skip, skim or scan.

Deepswim,
Your experience was not as a dining or cabin steward, but can you remember how your remuneration differed from theirs? E.g. were the wages substantially different because you couldn't expect revenue from gratuities? And if so, did you get a read on how much better or worse it was, besides the obvious, i.e. you were assured of a certain net income.

[The_Hall_Monitor]

[quote name='ekerr19']I am just interested in hearing FIRST HAND (from crew), not necessarily from HAL's web-site how it really is ...To everyone - I'm just trying to find out some information here...[/QUOTE]Based on conversations with crew members on various HAL ships, I've gotten the impression that most of the cruiseline staff comes from Manila. It seems the ones living in rural areas tend to stay home and manage in a rural agricultural society.

And, it goes without saying that I can't speak for the entire crew but several have told me that jobs are scarce in Manila and wages are very low (like $90/month for a school teacher). My point is: they've chosen to be employed on HAL, even though it keeps them away from from home for long periods. They are quite willing to make the trade-off to provide a better standard of living for their family.

I would refer you to the following webpage (a Chamber-of-Commerce kind of thing), trying to attract investment in the Asian countries (so it follows they'll put the best face possible on their statistics). [url]http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/asiacities/manila.html[/url]

Note the average household income in Manila is in the US Dollar $6K to $9K range.

I think it's pretty well agreed here that crew members make at least US$20K working on a ship. Some say US$35K to US$40K -- but who's counting?

At the absolute bottom figure of US$20K, that crew member's household is three or four times more affluent than their neighbor who works at Manila City Hall (or wherever). Comparatively speaking, the crew member's family lives in princely fashion.

None of which has anything to do with whether, how much or in what form tips should be awarded. I, for one, would rather $10/day be merged into the price of a cruise so I'd know up front it was there and then I could either book the cruise or not.

But that's just my take on it....

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]Based on conversations with crew members on various HAL ships, I've gotten the impression that most of the cruiseline staff comes from Manila. It seems the ones living in rural areas tend to stay home and manage in a rural agricultural society. [/QUOTE]

On HAL, the beverage services are from the Philippines. The dining room staff and cabin stewards are from Indonesia.

[lknick]

Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?

[The_Hall_Monitor]

I stand corrected.

I have not had these conversations with the dining room staff or cabin stewards. To hold them up for a thoughtful conversation about family, wages, work conditions would cause them a problem in accomplishing their duties.


I have, however, talked about these matters with a good many servers on the Lido at various times of day and in the Ocean Bar during quiet hours when I might go in for a Coke and place to read.

[jhannah]

[quote name='lknick']Rev, your post was unkind as in my mind it only serves to put down the poster. And in what way did your factual correction change the point?[/QUOTE]I fail to see how the post was unkind whatsoever. It was simply providing factual information. Aren't we all better off with facts than with speculations?

[Jacqueline]

[font=Times New Roman] [/font]

"[font=Times New Roman]Yes, there are perks for the crew. Room and board is supplied. For some they are living up to 4 in a room sharing bathrooms. There are special areas in the ship that are just for the crew. A lot were not allowed up on passenger decks unless they are on duty so those few areas are worth their weight in gold. On the line that I worked for they also set up special events and outing for us to participate in. They supplied training and classes to improve skills for crew members. [/font]"

I have had waiters that have been onboard ships for 15 years- anyone who signs up for that many contracts likes the life onboard. The last fellow commented that he missed the old days when there were a whole lot of guys in a *dorm* rather than the two men to the room which they have now. He said there was always a story to hear or a joke being told.
Honestly there are many career choices that involve the same or worse basic conditions- like being in Iraq in a tent. Or in a submarine.
I wonder how the teachers who live in the dorms at the prep schools handle it. I bet they make less.

"[font=Times New Roman]I worked on the ships for 2 years. During that time I saw members treated so badly that they were in complete tears. I worked through sleep deprivation, being away from my family, home and friends. If you are unlucky and you stay on a ship with a set itinerary it begins to get quite boring seeing the same places over and over again. I began to miss simple things most people take for granted. Living in a 10X10 room for months on end is not all that much fun, daily news of your friends back home or even the world, food that is of your choosing, finally day(s) off that you do not have anything to worry about.[/font]"

Again this is a lifestyle choice (and it is a choice, slavery is against the law in most places in the world and on all cruiseships) that is not for everyone- but there those who thrive on it.
I have worked plently of jobs in my life where people have been reduced to tears and worked day and night ! In fact this sounds a lot like my husbands law firm....