Is a cruise a package holiday?

The new Package travel directive comes into force today which made me think. P&O have cancelled cruises for many people on Oriana without offering an equivalent cruise or any real form of compensation (not £50 obc) and if a cruise is a package holiday, it is contrary to package holiday regulations.

Or do P&O just not care?

The new Package travel directive comes into force today which made me think. P&O have cancelled cruises for many people on Oriana without offering an equivalent cruise or any real form of compensation (not £50 obc) and if a cruise is a package holiday, it is contrary to package holiday regulations.

 

Or do P&O just not care?

I’d be surprised if the regulations don’t prescribe what a package holiday is for the purposes of the laws.

If you refer to the P&O Cruises brochure, Booking Conditions and look at the definitions heading.

DEFINITIONS

1. In these Conditions and unless the context requires otherwise: "the Contract" means the contract made between P&O Cruises and the Guest relating to the package, "Cruise" means the cruise on board the ship as described in the relevant P&O cruises brochure or other......

So they use the word PACKAGE in their Booking Conditions.

If the regulations start today then presumably things will change from today. Are P&O UK under UK laws and regulations?

Regards John

The new rules come into force today for new bookings which add additional protection, but its the existing rules that I don’t think P&O abide by.

Here is a quote from the ABTA website

“

What is a package holiday?

The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 define a 'package holiday' as follows:

• The holiday must cover a period of at least 24 hours or involve overnight accommodation.
  
• The holiday must consist of a combination of at least two of the following components:
  

• Transport (for example, flights, trains, coaches and ferries - free transfers from the airport to a hotel would not be included)
  
• Accommodation (this should be significant - it would include a berth on a cruise ship but not on a cross-channel ferry)
  
• Other tourist services that form a significant proportion of the package (for example, car hire).
  
• The holiday must be sold at an inclusive price.”
  

I think you are correct artemis10.....it would be interesting if someone affected by the Oriana cancellations could see what P &O have to say about it.

I read elsewhere that someone had rebooked a similar cruise but a couple of days shorter than the original Oriana one , and had to pay more than the original one cost. In my opinion that is totally out of order and it would seem under the ABTA rules that P & O should have offered it for the same price as the original one.

It is P & O who have cancelled the cruises yet the passengers are expected to pay more for the replacement.......something is not right !!!

I would imagine that a round-trip sailing from Southampton would not be considered a package. A fly-cruise however probably is a package unless you have bought your own flights independent of the cruise line.

Surely a cruise combines transport with accommodation, so meets the requirements? I don't think we will get any clarity until/unless someone challenges this in court.

The new rules come into force today for new bookings which add additional protection, but its the existing rules that I don’t think P&O abide by.

 

Here is a quote from the ABTA website

 

“

What is a package holiday?

 

The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 define a 'package holiday' as follows:

• The holiday must cover a period of at least 24 hours or involve overnight accommodation.
  
• The holiday must consist of a combination of at least two of the following components:
  

• Transport (for example, flights, trains, coaches and ferries - free transfers from the airport to a hotel would not be included)
  
• Accommodation (this should be significant - it would include a berth on a cruise ship but not on a cross-channel ferry)
  
• Other tourist services that form a significant proportion of the package (for example, car hire).
  
• The holiday must be sold at an inclusive price.”
  

It appears that a cruise with P&O is not a package holiday unless it includes flights?

I would have thought a cruise counts and if pretty sure this would have been tested in law at some point (the original regulations have applied since 1992). Be interesting to see if someone finds a definitive answer.

If I were particularly aggrieved, my first point would to complain in writing. And if that go no-where I’d phone the legal assistance people that come with my insurance.

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Yes a cruise is clearly a package as it covers transport + accommodation.

My useful contact (who spent a working life in consumer protection), tells me there are requirements for a cancellation, which can be found in Reg. 13 of "The Package Travel Regulations), so worth a google. Basically it appears the requirement is for a replacement cruise the same or higher standard, a lower standard cruise with the price difference refunded or a full refund. It does not say whether the choice of those is by the customer or the cruise company though. There may be past case law somewhere in the EU that clarifies who has the choice of those three options as it is EU regulation.

There is also a requirement for compensation - but no amount mentioned, so would be for the courts to decide, unless again, there is previous case law from somewhere in the EU. My contact thought lack of perks which would have been available if another cruise booked at an earlier date is something he would have expected to be covered as part of the compensation. Would have to be on a like for like cruise though, or something considered as equal standard - obviously some cruises are cheaper/more expensive for a reason, (e.g. time of year, ship, destination of cruise, number of nights), so need to be realistic when comparing two cruises as to what the value of each actually is.

If anyone affected decides to write to P&O regards this, your case will be far stronger if you mention the legislation by the correct name and also quote the regulation concerned (reg.13). Although a threat to take to court is worthwhile if they will not pay up after your first letter, chances are a personal settlement is as good as you would get if you actually go to court, as long as P&O are clearly aware that you know your rights. So keep letters business like.

Happy negotiations folks,

PS

Incidentally, did P&O give any compensation for the cancelled cruises, or just full refunds?

It appears that a cruise with P&O is not a package holiday unless it includes flights?

This is of course totally incorrect. The ship clearly provides transport and accommodation, so extra transport has no relevance at all. The legislation is clear in that.

What was written in #4 is correct.

Surely a cruise combines transport with accommodation, so meets the requirements? I don't think we will get any clarity until/unless someone challenges this in court.

In addition to the ship moving about a bit thus providing "transport" it could be interpreted that any shore excursion/s you book are integrated in the transport requirement too.

Regards John

Some interesting points raised here. Whilst I would at first have said a fly-cruise was certainly a package, perhaps a cruise only was not. However since a cruise-only is transporting you to your destination(s) I can't see how that doesn't qualify too and therefore agree with that conclusion.

Irrespective of the practice of selling ships after customers have bought cruises on said ship (a whole separate and questionable issue imo) I think the options available to customers now caught in this position is reprehensible.

Insulting, yes. Customers have been treated with complete disregard.

Lacking in any concern or compassion for a situation P&O have created, most definitely the case.

But above all to be financially disadvantaged as a consequence quite frankly stinks!

I don't know how they think they will get away with such dreadful PR. I sincerely hope the chickens come home to roost and they are held accountable. Unfortunately this new legislation post dates the announcement re Oriana (convenient timing eh?) but my very best wishes to all those affected that some moral if not legal pressure can be brought to bear. What cavalier treatment of their 'valued guests'!

The ABTA website suggests a cruise is a package. I think I read somewhere that the board of Carnival PLC had accepted that also. As such you should not be charged more for a replacement holiday of similar specification. Of course I am not a solicitor so I know nothing.

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It is also for NEW bookings, not existing, so will not help those who were booked on Oriana.

It is also for NEW bookings, not existing, so will not help those who were booked on Oriana.

Except all of this is about the Package Travel Regulation 1992.

Luckily my cruise falls just the right side of the divide. I am appalled that Carnival PLC who have had tens of thousands of pounds from me can behave so badly yet again. I do not want to support such a business.

Best wishes, Stephen.

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Some very strange posts appeared since I put my two posts above (#10 and #11), which I suggest you read. What I wrote is fact as understood (and has been understood) by professionals for years. The post in #4 as well as my posts refer to that original legislation.

The legislation mentioned in the news today has no relevance whatsoever, a cruise has always been a package (it clearly covers accomodation + transport) and so the situation with Oriana is covered by the regulations that have been in force for years.

'Having a go at P&O' will get you no where, but a sensible approach as I mentioned will probably yield results, unless reasonable compensation has already been offered by P&O.

The new Package travel directive comes into force today which made me think. P&O have cancelled cruises for many people on Oriana without offering an equivalent cruise or any real form of compensation (not £50 obc) and if a cruise is a package holiday, it is contrary to package holiday regulations.

 

Or do P&O just not care?

I understand it is for bookings made from today.

Are people inferring, that's why they cancelled the cruises yesterday?

Regards John

Some very strange posts appeared since I put my two posts above (#10 and #11), which I suggest you read. What I wrote is fact as understood (and has been understood) by professionals for years. The post in #4 as well as my posts refer to that original legislation.

 

The legislation mentioned in the news today has no relevance whatsoever, a cruise has always been a package (it clearly covers accomodation + transport) and so the situation with Oriana is covered by the regulations that have been in force for years.

 

'Having a go at P&O' will get you no where, but a sensible approach as I mentioned will probably yield results, unless reasonable compensation has already been offered by P&O.

I agree. The old regulations should cover all Oriana bookings. It depends on a passenger taking this up with P and O. Then again I am not a solicitor.

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I agree. The old regulations should cover all Oriana bookings. It depends on a passenger taking this up with P and O. Then again I am not a solicitor.

 

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Very few solicitors would have any knowledge of consumer law which is largely the domain of Trading Standards, though the majority (if not all) don't have enough staff to do the statutory duties now, so consumer advice for civil law has been long confined to the past. I think the citizens advice have some role in this now, but not sure how it works nowadays. It should come well within the small claims court requirements though.

Mind you, I am sure a solicitor would be happy to take a case to the small claims court if anyone was stupid enough to appoint one for something so straightforward and be prepared to end up out of pocket after paying a solicitor.

Must admit, I would like to see P&O challenged by people affected as they appear to have done this twice recently with Adonia last year.

If I remember correctly, when Artemis went and when Adonia went to Fathom, there were no future cruises on sale which were cancelled. I may well be wrong with that though.

I am wondering if Carnival have done this with any of their American based cruise lines.

They may be thinking they can get round the requirements here with their T&C's (under cancellation by them), but T&C's cannot override the law.

Very few solicitors would have any knowledge of consumer law which is largely the domain of Trading Standards, though the majority (if not all) don't have enough staff to do the statutory duties now, so consumer advice for civil law has been long confined to the past. I think the citizens advice have some role in this now, but not sure how it works nowadays. It should come well within the small claims court requirements though.

 

Mind you, I am sure a solicitor would be happy to take a case to the small claims court if anyone was stupid enough to appoint one for something so straightforward and be prepared to end up out of pocket after paying a solicitor.

 

Must admit, I would like to see P&O challenged by people affected as they appear to have done this twice recently with Adonia last year.

 

If I remember correctly, when Artemis went and when Adonia went to Fathom, there were no future cruises on sale which were cancelled. I may well be wrong with that though.

 

I am wondering if Carnival have done this with any of their American based cruise lines.

 

They may be thinking they can get round the requirements here with their T&C's (under cancellation by them), but T&C's cannot override the law.

You sound very knowledgeable. This could have happened to me on a non P and O holiday. Please could I ask a few questions. Am I right I should be offered an equivalent holiday (if available for the same operator) at the same price. If this is not done should I pay the higher price for the equivalent holiday and then use the small claim court to ask for the difference. Alternatively if I choose a refund what about pre and post cruise hotels and travel arrangements I could be out of pocket.

Thank you, Stephen.

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As per my original post it does not seem to be clear who has the choice of the three options (could be P&O), so you could not necessarily claim your choice of those options. However, if P&O decide to go along the full refund option, then there is also an entitlement to compensation.

I have asked about that (the retired professional is a very close relative).and he is of the opinion he would expect to be able to claim for losses such as hotels/transport which has been booked. He would also expect the difference in price if it was a comparable cruise, which can be tricky because so many things affect the price of a cruise. Certainly, he would expect to be able to book a new cruise at an equivalent price (taking account of perks), that would have been available for that cruise at the time Oriana cruise was booked (assuming it is something in a similar price range). Hence they would be the sort of things that could be claimed, initially by writing to P&O or could be taken to a small claims court. But, if you book another cruise with P&O and accept, say on board spend, he reckons P&O would make sure they will get you to accept that in full and final settlement - so you could not make any other claim if you accept that offer from P&O.

He seems to think that P&O would not actually want anyone to go to the small claims court, because if they lost and appealed the decision sucessfully, then that decision would set a precedent in the court. To go to appeal it would likely need to be someone who was a solicitor or barrister (who could do their own legal work), or someone with legal insurance, if the insurance will take up the appeal. Hence he thinks P&O will likely make a reasonable offer to prevent it going to court -especially if someone seems to know what they are doing. Hence my previous comment about making the right quotes (see my original post).

Note - Compensation is only claimable because P&O had control over their decision to sell the ship. If a cruise cancellation is because of something they did not have any control of, then compensation would not be claimable. For another holiday, which you specifically asked about, it would depend on the reason for the cancellation (i.e. whether there was control over that reason by the holiday company).

Point Two

There was also a comment that someone could contact Southampton Trading Standards because, if P&O had the ship on sale or knew it was possible they could sell it, then their actions could be considered an unfair commercial practice of they did not let people know this could happen and their cruise be cancelled. Whether or not Southampton Trading Standards would have the resources to investigate that is another matter, but certainly worth contacting them. Nationally, TS departmental staff numbers have plummeted over the last ten years (e.g. down by 75%). It is after all though, something P&O have now done twice within a relatively short time.

When this happened to us, on Adonia in 2005, we were simply offered a choice of voyages to transfer to, at NO EXTRA COST. The one we picked, was far and away both more expensive, but also two days longer, but it cost us not a penny more.

How times have changed.

I presume you have the option of a full refund including deposit? P&O won't deliver what they contracted to supply so the contract is invalid and you get your money back, or am I being stupid?

Then take your money and spend it on a cruise with another cruise line, preferably not a Carnival brand