HAL is thinking big for its next-generation ships

[igraf]

I see many posts lauding the older smaller ships, however, we also have a couple of threads with folks getting ditzy over the Nieuw Amsterdam. No one seems to care that it is basically a Vista class ship with 300 additional passengers and privatized common deck space. To them, bigger is better. The customers are driving the future and most of them want bigger ships.

 

Personally, I will avoid the Nieuw Amsterdam and Eurodam, however, I am also not fond of the high cost of a verandah cabin on the S and R class ships either.

 

igraf

[DutchByAssociation]

If they are going to buiild a new ship, why can't they make the atriums bigger and have glass fronted elevators, or elevators on the side of the ship?

 

The Vista and Signature Class already have the elevators on the sides (I assume you mean glass elevators that look out)

[DutchByAssociation]

I see many posts lauding the older smaller ships, however, we also have a couple of threads with folks getting ditzy over the Nieuw Amsterdam. No one seems to care that it is basically a Vista class ship with 300 additional passengers and privatized common deck space.

 

That Vista class with 300 extra people, in reality:

• Has more public space in the Atrium where the bar was removed
  
• Has additional capacity in the Pinnacle Grill to accommodate more guests
  
• Has a Pinnacle Bar layout that also accommodates additional guests with a larger bar top and more seating without taking more of the floorplan
  
• Incorporated the Screening Room into an area that could have been just more shops, and when the Queen's Room and Showroom at Sea can also accommodate movies in order to enhance guest experience
  
• Speaking of the Showroom at Sea, it is able to still accommodate the same percentage of guests due to the new seating arrangement that began with Eurodam
  
• Casino with more machines in the same amount of space
  
• Casino/Sports Bar with more seating and a better layout
  
• More seating and a more open layout of the Northern Lights
  
• The space in the main corridor outside of the Queen's Lounge has been redesigned (compared to the Vista Class) to allow for more seating spaces
  
• More seating and an enhanced experience in the Explorer's Lounge due to the Explorer's Bar
  
• Additional capacity in the Manhattan Dining Room to accommodate the extra guests and provide for the same ratio as the Vista Class (and while yes, in many cases this was done by making smaller tables larger, there are a lot of people that request larger tables to meet more people)
  
• One of the meeting rooms, Stuyvesant Room, has been turned into the Digital Workshop... an additional guest area that is also complimentary
  
• The longer decks (more staterooms) on decks 5-8 compared to the Vista Class when they first launched have created a MUCH LARGER aft pool deck.
  
• A larger fitness center with more equipment
  
• More spa therapy rooms
  
• More loungers in the thermal suites
  
• Less cabanas compared to Eurodam based on guest feedback
  
• Another food venue and a larger bar top and seating for guests at the aft pool
  
• A reconfigured Club HAL to provide better spaces for kids and teens onboard
  
• An additional bar and restaurant (Tamarind and Silk Den)
  
• A brand new open deck space above Tamarind and Silk Den FILLED with lounge chairs
  

and

• "300" is in reality (all based on double occupancy) 180
  

Personally, I will avoid the Nieuw Amsterdam and Eurodam, however, I am also not fond of the high cost of a verandah cabin on the S and R class ships either.

 

So as none of the ships in HAL's fleet appeal to you, what would you recommend?

 

*Edit* I didn't even mention that the areas that hold many of the extra staterooms never existed before so they did not take away any areas that were previously for guest use

[Himself]

As anyone who has read my enteries knows I am very partial to the R Class. I have been on All the Vista class ships except the Noordam. I am definately going to be on the Eurodam in October and I could well be on the Nieuw Amsterdam in late February. By the way I am also told that the NOORDAM is the Best of the Vista Class and I have it in mind to try her in the next couple of years.

 

I do agree that Bigger is not necessarily better though with the way many lines are going even the Vista And Signature ships will be mid size. Ten years ago they would have been humungus.

[Australian family]

The Vista and Signature Class already have the elevators on the sides (I assume you mean glass elevators that look out)

 

I wasn't aware that they had those, I guess we will never see those ships in Australia. We only seem to get the older ones.

 

I was also referring to elevators inside that have glass looking into the atrium.

 

I am looking forward to seeing the Radiance of the Seas, Royal Carribean, sailing out of Australia. It is the next ship that I want to go on. Yes it is bigger, but it also has a lot more to offer for families. And we can book a balcony cabin. That is what disappoints with HAL ships coming to Australia, for a family of four wanting a balcony you have to book a suite. I don't think HAL realise what a big market there is here in Australia.

[happy cruzer]

... but...

 

BIGGER is cheaper to build (per passenger), to staff, operate, and maintain

 

...and...

 

BIGGER is far more profitable (per passenger).

 

Thus...

 

BIGGER it will be be.

 

:(

 

Yep, the reason ships get bigger is to make money to survive. Unless HAL can increase fares ALOT over other mass market lines, they too must get bigger.

 

Small ship lovers have to pay for our choice.

[tomc]

I noticed the OP's quote. That's not what CND said yesterday or the day before. It was more on the idea of speculation and BOGSATT*

 

*Bunch Of Guys Sitting Around the Table Talking.

 

Then the speculation got out of the room.

[RedmondCruiser]

Bigger may not be better but its a sign of the times and it will not change. The newer, bigger, ships are more cost efficient per passenger mile and have become a fixture in the industry. None of this will change. When HAL orders a new set of mega ships it will probably spell the end of the S class ships.

[igraf]

OK, make that 188-190 extra passengers to be precise. You can rearrange the furniture all you want, but more people means more people. I would hope that that HAL added a few more seats in the common areas, of course this means for more clutter and less open space. Privatizing the common decks to any extent is bad deal for the passengers.

 

Seriously, I don't see why you go on and on about the Signature Class ships. There is no true net gain on a per passenger basis. These ships were built to increase profits for HAL.

 

Igraf

 

p.s. I like the Vista class ships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That Vista class with 300 extra people, in reality:

• Has more public space in the Atrium where the bar was removed
  
• Has additional capacity in the Pinnacle Grill to accommodate more guests
  
• Has a Pinnacle Bar layout that also accommodates additional guests with a larger bar top and more seating without taking more of the floorplan
  
• Incorporated the Screening Room into an area that could have been just more shops, and when the Queen's Room and Showroom at Sea can also accommodate movies in order to enhance guest experience
  
• Speaking of the Showroom at Sea, it is able to still accommodate the same percentage of guests due to the new seating arrangement that began with Eurodam
  
• Casino with more machines in the same amount of space
  
• Casino/Sports Bar with more seating and a better layout
  
• More seating and a more open layout of the Northern Lights
  
• The space in the main corridor outside of the Queen's Lounge has been redesigned (compared to the Vista Class) to allow for more seating spaces
  
• More seating and an enhanced experience in the Explorer's Lounge due to the Explorer's Bar
  
• Additional capacity in the Manhattan Dining Room to accommodate the extra guests and provide for the same ratio as the Vista Class (and while yes, in many cases this was done by making smaller tables larger, there are a lot of people that request larger tables to meet more people)
  
• One of the meeting rooms, Stuyvesant Room, has been turned into the Digital Workshop... an additional guest area that is also complimentary
  
• The longer decks (more staterooms) on decks 5-8 compared to the Vista Class when they first launched have created a MUCH LARGER aft pool deck.
  
• A larger fitness center with more equipment
  
• More spa therapy rooms
  
• More loungers in the thermal suites
  
• Less cabanas compared to Eurodam based on guest feedback
  
• Another food venue and a larger bar top and seating for guests at the aft pool
  
• A reconfigured Club HAL to provide better spaces for kids and teens onboard
  
• An additional bar and restaurant (Tamarind and Silk Den)
  
• A brand new open deck space above Tamarind and Silk Den FILLED with lounge chairs
  

and

• "300" is in reality (all based on double occupancy) 180
  

 

 

So as none of the ships in HAL's fleet appeal to you, what would you recommend?

 

*Edit* I didn't even mention that the areas that hold many of the extra staterooms never existed before so they did not take away any areas that were previously for guest use

[LoyHAL]

Well, it sounds like Mr. Kruse stated the obvious. Let's hope they decide to stay 'true to brand'!

 

I wish they'd announce the construction of more Zaandam-sized ships.

LoyHAL

[Rowena]

Oh, please, no!

 

I am all for innovation, but bigger equates to longer walk to the dining room, then clear to the other end of the ship for a show. Of course, this could mean weight loss in stead of gain, but still....

[dmwnc1959]

Saw this over at another cruise news daily site:

 

"Another news outlet, which will remain nameless (because according to Holland America, they got it wrong), is reporting Holland America's next generation of ships will be in the 110,000-ton range, carrying 3,000 passengers.

According to the line, the reporter must have misunderstood. Holland America is committed to mid-size ships.

[Taxguy77]

... but...

 

BIGGER is cheaper to build (per passenger), to staff, operate, and maintain

 

...and...

 

BIGGER is far more profitable (per passenger).

 

Thus...

 

BIGGER it will be be.

 

:(

 

You are correct in the first cases, but I hope not the last.

Why even use the Hal structure and overhead if the ships are just twins of other Carnival brands?

True, the smaller ships are more expensive per pax, but many of us like them and perceive value so we cruise them.

We WON'T take a ship over 2,000 pax!

[Taxguy77]

The key question was noted: "Is it true to the brand?" Methinks that is a resounding "NO!"

 

That being said, if the financial numbers look better, then we'll see a bigger class of ship. I also hope they keep the smaller ones going. However, I'm not feeling there is a long future for the S class ships.

 

Then there is not a long cruising future for us!

Well, maybe on a smaller ship. Love the Royal Clipper, had a river cruise cancelled on us.

[tomc]

People question the Bible, but they believe every mistaken rumor that gets into print.

[frbob]

If the future "direction" of HAL cruising is to be with mega ships, this frequent cruiser will find some other form of entertainment. "Large" is not my cup of tea! If the report is true, it's a bad move Mr. Kruse! I hope there is more to the story.

[RuthC]

I hope there is more to the story.

The cynic in me has to wonder if there really is more to this story. As in "Let's run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes it".

 

Really, what better way to test out the idea, but to have it leak, then check on the response on such forums as Cruise Critic, etc.

[Pettifogger]

I'm not trying to start an argument with this post, because I have an insufficient knowledge of the facts to have much chance of winning it; instead, I'm hoping to learn enough from the better informed of you to have some hope of maybe winning one in the future.

 

My impression is that the cruise lines found that bigger ships were more profitable than smaller ones a few years ago when most ships sailed fully occupied without having to offer large discounts. Under those circumstances, the cruise lines didn't have to be overly concerned with the preference of some passengers for smaller ships.

 

Now that there is no longer a surplus of prospective passengers, the calculation becomes more complex. How long will the challenging market persist? When it ends, will the next market be just be 'normal,' as it was a decade ago or 'abnormally favorable' as it was four or five years ago? In the latter case, bigger is obviously the answer for the same reason now that it was then, but if it's just going to be 'normal,' passenger preferences may have to be considered.

 

The cruise lines presumably have excellent information on passengers' ship size preferences, since they can easily see how hard or easy it has been to sell the cabins on smaller as compared to bigger ships, so it seems to me that all they have to do is figure out what the market is going to be like for the next few years. While that may not be easy, it's the relatively straightforward job of predicting the future that managements in other businesses also face.

 

I hope they do it right, because if irresistible economic forces require all of the cruise lines on which I can afford to sail to eliminate the smaller ships I prefer, I shall have to live with or without it. But I'd be saddened to lose out because of a management miscalculation.

 

If I went wrong somewhere in that line of reasoning, I'd be grateful to anyone who can point out where in a civil way.

[mudscraper]

Considering the condition of the worlds economy, I don`t see HAL building several mega ships and sending the smaller ones to the breakers anytime soon. Relax. Book a cruise on your favorite HAL ship. Let`s go cruisin`.

 

 

Rich

[Hwy101A]

free food and dancing... can't wait. Holland sounds like a rockin ship.. singed, happy birthday ringo star..

 

http://image02.bizrate.com/resize?sq=500&uid=1710729861

 

does the lido still let us drum on the trays? gotta love the mature cruisers.

 

Happy Sailings..

[geocruiser]

We like the smaller ships. But we really love the very small ships with less than 800 PAX.

 

I think that at some point in time there might be just too many cabin afloat on the high seas. With most of the cruise lines having larger ships, they are all starting to fit into the same mold. Having larger ships means having more cabins to sell. The ship must sail near full on every voyage. If I owned a cruise line I rather have smaller ship that are all ways booked or wait listed to get on, than large ships that have empty cabins and are sailing at cheap fares.

I would rather have a product that every one wants, sails full and is the talk of the high seas!

 

Maria

[tomc]

Floor: "Point of order! Point of order!"

 

[Chair slams gavel] [slams gavel again]

 

Chair: "Gentleman declares point of order. He has the floor."

 

Floor: "People are responding only to previous statements. I refer them to posts #32, 37 and 40, in that order. Let us not be discussing, moaning & p*ss*ng about possibilities and rumors that have no basis in fact."

 

[Chair slams gavel again.]

 

Chair: "Please; quiet. The gentleman has the floor. Stop interrupting."

 

Floor: "HAL has made it clear what is fact and what has been misinterpreted. Please do not muddy the waters. And please do not quote me as saying I like the blues singer Muddy Waters. The ditzy reporter got it all wrong. Thank you."

 

Voice from the back: "You mean we wasted all these electrons and bandwidth for nothing?"

 

Floor: "YBYA."

[DutchByAssociation]

I wish they'd announce the construction of more Zaandam-sized ships.

LoyHAL

 

I did some research today based on that comment as Oceania is coming out with their "biggest ever ships" that are almost to the number identical in dimension to the S Class.

 

While I didn't find anything that says what the S Class cost back in the day or what that is in "today's dollars" I do know that:

 

Eurodam was about $450 million DOLLARS

Nieuw Amsterdam was 425 million EUROS

 

Using TODAY'S (I know, not 100% accurate) exchange rate 425 million Euros is around $540 million dollars.

 

Oceania's new ships were priced at approx $500 million dollars.

 

So considering our place in the market and the experience and amenities provided to our guests...

 

For $500 million DOLLARS we could either:

• build essentially an "S Class ship" or
  
• 92% of a Signature Class or
  
• theoretically (based on the price Celebrity has paid for their Solstice Class which is relatively similar to the size spoken of in this article... and those ships were identified as $750 million) 2/3 of a new build
  

 

People on here and that have commented on Gene Sloan's Cruise Log post about this have also taken the approach of acknowledging the ship would be bigger and there would be more rooms and people but seemingly taking the approach that the staff levels would remain the same as the Signature Class?

 

In order for HAL to continue representing itself in the Premium market and providing the same guest experience, the same ratio of 1 crew to every 2.2-2.4 guests would have to stay in effect or at least not deviate too much.

 

To keepthe same ratio as Nieuw Amsterdam

2106 guests, 929 crew it would mean there would be, based on 3000 guests approx 1327 crew.

 

Compare that to:

Carnival Freedom and the Conquest Class at 1150 crew

Celebrity Solstice and that class with 1250 crew

Mariner of the Seas (Vision Class) with 1185 crew

Ruby Princess with 1225 crew

 

I would say we're right up in there with where we've always been.

 

Of course if Stein wants to see the Canal taking larger ships before these would launch (thereabouts) then I would imagine we're looking at 2014-2015 before the first ships really start coming out.

[cruisecrasy]

I did some research today based on that comment as Oceania is coming out with their "biggest ever ships" that are almost to the number identical in dimension to the S Class.

 

While I didn't find anything that says what the S Class cost back in the day or what that is in "today's dollars" I do know that:

 

Eurodam was about $450 million DOLLARS

Nieuw Amsterdam was 425 million EUROS

 

Using TODAY'S (I know, not 100% accurate) exchange rate 425 million Euros is around $540 million dollars.

 

Oceania's new ships were priced at approx $500 million dollars.

 

So considering our place in the market and the experience and amenities provided to our guests...

 

For $500 million DOLLARS we could either:

• build essentially an "S Class ship" or
  
• 92% of a Signature Class or
  
• theoretically (based on the price Celebrity has paid for their Solstice Class which is relatively similar to the size spoken of in this article... and those ships were identified as $750 million) 2/3 of a new build
  

 

People on here and that have commented on Gene Sloan's Cruise Log post about this have also taken the approach of acknowledging the ship would be bigger and there would be more rooms and people but seemingly taking the approach that the staff levels would remain the same as the Signature Class?

 

In order for HAL to continue representing itself in the Premium market and providing the same guest experience, the same ratio of 1 crew to every 2.2-2.4 guests would have to stay in effect or at least not deviate too much.

 

To keepthe same ratio as Nieuw Amsterdam

2106 guests, 929 crew it would mean there would be, based on 3000 guests approx 1327 crew.

 

Compare that to:

Carnival Freedom and the Conquest Class at 1150 crew

Celebrity Solstice and that class with 1250 crew

Mariner of the Seas (Vision Class) with 1185 crew

Ruby Princess with 1225 crew

 

I would say we're right up in there with where we've always been.

 

Of course if Stein wants to see the Canal taking larger ships before these would launch (thereabouts) then I would imagine we're looking at 2014-2015 before the first ships really start coming out.

 

If the negative comments about 2012 come true there may not be a world as we know it in 2014/15 :)

 

U am curious though in all seriousness, just how big will a cruise ship have to eventually be to be too big - 6000 - 8000 - 10000 or 20000 pax? Imagine how long u wld need to be out to walk from one end of the ship to the other? I mean, once u get to a certain point, I don't know how cruiselines will be able to 'out big' each other any more anyway?

Besides, doesn't a ship become a huge target at some point also?

 

I think I shall stick to the R & S class..& perhaps the Vista as well..

 

Happy cruisin' all!

[Australian family]

In order for HAL to continue representing itself in the Premium market and providing the same guest experience, the same ratio of 1 crew to every 2.2-2.4 guests would have to stay in effect or at least not deviate too much.

 

If HAL want to appeal to the premium market, they need to maintain there ships to that standard as well, as our experience of the Volendam was not of a ship that was maintained for the premium market. Does HAL management ever set foot on these ships to see the condition of them, eg cabin sofas, carpets, airconditioning in cabins etc?

 

There is no point in building a new mega ship for millions and millions of dollars if they aren't going to maintain the fleet to a consistent standard for the premium market!