Currently on Sojourn, very large group on board

[Jim Avery]

I hate to say it but don't expect any changes from Seabourn. This issue has been all over the SeaDream boards for years. The only response from SeaDream was a posting on their blog touting the advantages of large family/group bookings. We are very hesitant to book over there anymore. Lately we have found that booking a top suite on a more mainstream line provides perks, and more importantly private space, for the same price or less.

[wripro]

Perhaps if enough people follow Jeff's advice and there is some financial toll to pay it might change things a little, even if only restricting the groups to smaller numbers.

[skincruisers]

Dear Grumpy Wombat. What you are experiencing really irritates me. We are just about to book a Soujourn cruise and I'd like to know who the group were so that when I chat to my Seabourn consultant in Australia I can just let her know that this has been an issue. Interestingly they will not tell me whether such a group is on the voyage we plan

Cruise Critic name skincruisers

[skincruisers]

Note the following reply from BD Manager for Seabourn in Australia. Any comments?

 

Thankyou for your email.

 

Our groups department is correct. We are constrained legally in providing such detailed information about the guests onboard. We are a publicly listed company on various stock exchanges around the world and all information is sensitive and under scrutiny.

 

However, I do hear your point of view.

 

As a Gold Seabourn member, they will know that the report they refer to is not the experience that 10's of 1,000's of Seabourn guests experience every year and that this, if accurate, is an anomaly. The vast majority of groups are very well behaved and we receive no complaints about them at all. However every now and then there may well be one that causes concern and we will deal with them on the ad hoc basis they occur. We will take the feed back we get from this group and review if we could/should have handled this differently. However we are constrained legally, based on the information our legal team provides us.

[markham]

Well, well, well...

 

I imagine that this response is just the first of many more to come in a volley between the supplier and its unhappy customers who, through no fault of their own, suffered the consequences of the supplier's selection of a group of idiots on an incentive package fling. In time the ship's officers will submit their own report and then Seabourn will have to do something about this mess. And I hope that those passengers also submit evidence e.g. signed testimonials, photos of pool cannonballing and band together for mutual support.

 

Here's an idea for the next time, and there is always a next time, by the way.

Yes, Seabourn needs an agent to setup an escrow account, funded up front by the incentive group's own agent and the escrow account would be administered by a bank or other impartial party. The conditions for payout to any/all aggrieved parties when the cruise is over would be stipulated up front, as in an event of default in any other secured transaction. Like a home mortgage. But is the incentive group behaves well, just like everyone else, their agent gets the money back. And the escrow administration is gonna cost Seabourn but hey, their risk and expense should not be the risk and aggravation of that nice couple from Phoenix or Ontario or near-Brisbane or London who innocently booked a cruise.

 

Or Seabourn can just pay out compensation for those days that the captain struggled to establish control over the incentive group's foul-mouthed and vulgar behavior before he ejects some or all of them from the ship, under advice to head office and with its full support.

 

Happy sailing!

[oregon50]

Note the following reply from BD Manager for Seabourn in Australia. Any comments?

 

Thankyou for your email.

 

Our groups department is correct. We are constrained legally in providing such detailed information about the guests onboard. We are a publicly listed company on various stock exchanges around the world and all information is sensitive and under scrutiny.

 

However, I do hear your point of view.

 

As a Gold Seabourn member, they will know that the report they refer to is not the experience that 10's of 1,000's of Seabourn guests experience every year and that this, if accurate, is an anomaly. The vast majority of groups are very well behaved and we receive no complaints about them at all. However every now and then there may well be one that causes concern and we will deal with them on the ad hoc basis they occur. We will take the feed back we get from this group and review if we could/should have handled this differently. However we are constrained legally, based on the information our legal team provides us.

 

The response reads fine to me.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Dear Grumpy Wombat. What you are experiencing really irritates me. We are just about to book a Soujourn cruise and I'd like to know who the group were so that when I chat to my Seabourn consultant in Australia I can just let her know that this has been an issue. Interestingly they will not tell me whether such a group is on the voyage we plan

Cruise Critic name skincruisers

 

Note the following reply from BD Manager for Seabourn in Australia. Any comments?

 

Thankyou for your email.

 

Our groups department is correct. We are constrained legally in providing such detailed information about the guests onboard. We are a publicly listed company on various stock exchanges around the world and all information is sensitive and under scrutiny.

 

However, I do hear your point of view.

 

As a Gold Seabourn member, they will know that the report they refer to is not the experience that 10's of 1,000's of Seabourn guests experience every year and that this, if accurate, is an anomaly. The vast majority of groups are very well behaved and we receive no complaints about them at all. However every now and then there may well be one that causes concern and we will deal with them on the ad hoc basis they occur. We will take the feed back we get from this group and review if we could/should have handled this differently. However we are constrained legally, based on the information our legal team provides us.

 

 

You seem to have been distracted and as a result fobbed off because you wish to know the exact identity pf the recent group which isn't really the issue. You are looking for reassurance about future cruises and you do not need to know the exact identity of past problematic groups in order to register your concern for the future cruises you plan.

 

Why not simply follow the process I suggested in #98?

 

That will provide you with a much better level of protection should you need to either cancel without charge or claim under Oz consumer laws. They will not be compliant and will be resistant because they want your cash now and will wish to keep it in the future, but that is exactly what your excellent consumer law is there for. The more that register these concerns the more influence you will have collectively as loyal valuable customers in influencing whether they accept these bookings in the future.

 

Don't be sidetracked by the past groups - concentrate on establishing acceptable ground rules for your future cruises. Contracts are two way, not just one. Good luck.

 

Jeff

Edited August 14, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff
spelling

[Capri73]

I hate to say it but don't expect any changes from Seabourn. This issue has been all over the SeaDream boards for years. The only response from SeaDream was a posting on their blog touting the advantages of large family/group bookings. We are very hesitant to book over there anymore. Lately we have found that booking a top suite on a more mainstream line provides perks, and more importantly private space, for the same price or less.

 

Would you recommend other cruise lines you really like?

[Grumpy Wombat]

I would be very interested to know what, if any, measures the cruise companies take to ensure the organisations booking these groups understand that bad or antisocial behaviour will not be tolerated and that the captain can and will order the perpetrators off the ship at the next port. Do the organisers accompany/chaperone the group to ensure they aren't causing any unnecessary aggro, or do they just let them loose to party hard. I think I can guess :(. The captain must adopt a zero tolerance stance and enforce it quickly and firmly. Once a few troublemakers have been thrown off the ship in disgrace to make their own way home the message might get through to anyone considering booking a group that other cruise lines might be a better "fit" for a bunch of noisy drunks.

[skincruisers]

Dear Jeff The only reason I wanted to know who the group were was because when I contacted Seabourn Australia (Holland America really) I was told in no uncertain terms that no such booking had ever come out of the Australia office. In essence they were saying that was was reported in the CC forums was a load of rubbish from disgruntled passengers. All I was trying to do was get some information I could fling back at them.

I've adopted your approach for our next cruise and I must say the staff at the Sydney office were most surprised indeed that I wanted confirmation in writing that they could or would not supply details as to whether a group was on board my cruise or not. I don't want to know who the group is, I just want to know that they are present.

We had a terrible experience last year on Silver Whisper where there were two groups on board ---- a NY construction union and the USA Undertakers society. The problem wasn't that they were overly lively, it was more that they hogged the restaurant bookings, the theatre was out of action for an entire week while they held a conference and there were silly things like Silverseas deciding that for this cruise only there would be extra smoking areas (i.e. the entire starboard side of the pool) to cope with the fact that the NY guys were all smokers.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Dear Jeff The only reason I wanted to know who the group were was because when I contacted Seabourn Australia (Holland America really) I was told in no uncertain terms that no such booking had ever come out of the Australia office. In essence they were saying that was was reported in the CC forums was a load of rubbish from disgruntled passengers. All I was trying to do was get some information I could fling back at them.

I've adopted your approach for our next cruise and I must say the staff at the Sydney office were most surprised indeed that I wanted confirmation in writing that they could or would not supply details as to whether a group was on board my cruise or not. I don't want to know who the group is, I just want to know that they are present.

We had a terrible experience last year on Silver Whisper where there were two groups on board ---- a NY construction union and the USA Undertakers society. The problem wasn't that they were overly lively, it was more that they hogged the restaurant bookings, the theatre was out of action for an entire week while they held a conference and there were silly things like Silverseas deciding that for this cruise only there would be extra smoking areas (i.e. the entire starboard side of the pool) to cope with the fact that the NY guys were all smokers.

 

That's great, glad the idea was useful. and thanks for giving the further background.

 

Just a further idea for you. In the event they will not give you details of whether there are groups or not, and you have made a booking then I'd just write something along the lines of "Fine. I am writing to confirm that you have told me no such booking existed and the reports I have read are i correct, I also confirm that whether you book groups or not is your business but I need to be clear with you that what I am expecting you to provide and maintain on my cruise is exactly what you have promised ie a luxury, sophisticated and peaceful environment (add all the appropriate words) and that if you fail to deliver that because you have taken a booking for a group that behaves in a way that compromises what I expect for the very high price I will be paying, then I will be pursuing SB for suitable reimbursement and compensation. I thought I should make this clear to you".

 

Be very clear. I hope this is helpful to you. Good luck.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I would be very interested to know what, if any, measures the cruise companies take to ensure the organisations booking these groups understand that bad or antisocial behaviour will not be tolerated and that the captain can and will order the perpetrators off the ship at the next port. Do the organisers accompany/chaperone the group to ensure they aren't causing any unnecessary aggro, or do they just let them loose to party hard. I think I can guess :(. The captain must adopt a zero tolerance stance and enforce it quickly and firmly. Once a few troublemakers have been thrown off the ship in disgrace to make their own way home the message might get through to anyone considering booking a group that other cruise lines might be a better "fit" for a bunch of noisy drunks.

 

They will tell their staff that they will be fired if customers complain about them, particularly large important corporate customers making group bookings.

[skincruisers]

To Cruising Kirby We had a similar experience last year onboard Silver Whisper. We've booked a trip on Seabourn Soujourn later this year. What irritates me is that the Australian office seems to be denying your experience, or that such a group ever existed. (The so-called "denial defence"). I was hoping to be able to get back to Seabourn AU (really Holland America) with something a bit more substantive than just your blog. My discussions with them were almost along the lines that you must be lying

 

Skinscruisers

[Grumpy Wombat]

We don't worry too much about life's What If's so we won't be cancelling any of our future cruising plans based on the possibility that a large group might disrupt things. You run the same risk on any cruise with any cruise line. By all means inform SB of your intention to seek compensation if a group does impact on your cruising enjoyment but it's not going to stop SB from taking this lucrative source of income.

[123linz123]

They will tell their staff that they will be fired if customers complain about them, particularly large important corporate customers making group bookings.

 

How do you know this information?

[123linz123]

Well, well, well...

 

I imagine that this response is just the first of many more to come in a volley between the supplier and its unhappy customers who, through no fault of their own, suffered the consequences of the supplier's selection of a group of idiots on an incentive package fling. In time the ship's officers will submit their own report and then Seabourn will have to do something about this mess. And I hope that those passengers also submit evidence e.g. signed testimonials, photos of pool cannonballing and band together for mutual support.

 

Here's an idea for the next time, and there is always a next time, by the way.

Yes, Seabourn needs an agent to setup an escrow account, funded up front by the incentive group's own agent and the escrow account would be administered by a bank or other impartial party. The conditions for payout to any/all aggrieved parties when the cruise is over would be stipulated up front, as in an event of default in any other secured transaction. Like a home mortgage. But is the incentive group behaves well, just like everyone else, their agent gets the money back. And the escrow administration is gonna cost Seabourn but hey, their risk and expense should not be the risk and aggravation of that nice couple from Phoenix or Ontario or near-Brisbane or London who innocently booked a cruise.

 

Or Seabourn can just pay out compensation for those days that the captain struggled to establish control over the incentive group's foul-mouthed and vulgar behavior before he ejects some or all of them from the ship, under advice to head office and with its full support.

 

Happy sailing!

 

I do not want compensation (if this instance befalls on me) I own my own business and my vacation/holiday days are limited.

I don't want money back, I need to know that what I am booking will be as expected, per Seabourns' description

[markham]

skincruisers,

 

So certain Seabourn/HAL reps are suggesting that the Sojourn event just did not happen? That's very poor form and unprofessional and sure to get everyone else annoyed.

 

It's terrible for the brand when customer service is sloppy. Maybe it's incentive groups that are terrible for the brand. If so, they should be banned, if for no other reasons than they create risks for other passengers and Seabourn has trouble managing the fallout.

 

No, I take that back. Seabourn should service the incentive market as long as the entire ship is one such party. But then I pity their hardworking shipboard staff...

 

Happy sailing!

[skincruisers]

That is exactly what they were suggesting. The link to the blogs and reviews are useful to my case to them (that Seabourn should at least tell me if a group is on board my cruise --- no name just that they've taken such a booking).

 

Their attitude seems to be that they haven't heard anything about the problems that occurred on that cruise. If the group were Aussies (as was suggested by the original blog) then I'm certain that the Sydney office would have booked them.

 

It could well be that the problems just have to work through the Seabourn system.

[Prunella1]

Following Jeff's advice, my husband emailed Seabourn head office in Seattle to voice our concerns over large groups being booked on our upcoming cruise in September, also any future cruise we might book. He received a reply within the hour from Richard Meadow's office to say he had read the email and wanted to reassure us that no such group, at the present time, are booked on the cruise. knowing the cruise has been sold out for weeks and is in any case longer than 7 days, we never really thought it would apply, we are just covering ourselves.

 

From the prompt reply I would imagine that Seattle are fully aware of the problem on board the Sojourn, and from our experience in the past we have had trying to deal with Seabourn UK, we always now go straight to head office in Seattle, so would suggest rather than trying to deal with Seabourn Australia or whoever, they should do the same.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Following Jeff's advice, my husband emailed Seabourn head office in Seattle to voice our concerns over large groups being booked on our upcoming cruise in September, also any future cruise we might book. He received a reply within the hour from Richard Meadow's office to say he had read the email and wanted to reassure us that no such group, at the present time, are booked on the cruise. knowing the cruise has been sold out for weeks and is in any case longer than 7 days, we never really thought it would apply, we are just covering ourselves.

 

From the prompt reply I would imagine that Seattle are fully aware of the problem on board the Sojourn, and from our experience in the past we have had trying to deal with Seabourn UK, we always now go straight to head office in Seattle, so would suggest rather than trying to deal with Seabourn Australia or whoever, they should do the same.

 

Well done. The internet has made these organisations realise how vulnerable they are to very fast reaction from customers about reputation and the fast response from SB s an excellent sign that they are aware of the potential for this issue to disrupt their business. And now at least you aren't brooding about this and know the current situation.

 

I don't mean to teach you to suck eggs, but I'd follow it up with a "thanks , but be aware of my concerns .... " along the lines of my more recent post.

 

Good luck and enjoy your cruise.

 

:)

 

Jeff

[Les Picantins]

If all cruise lines practice the same politics of running after incentive groups at the cost of alienating their loyal clients, this might be an opportunity for Seabourn to set themselves apart from the other lines. They could turn this negative situation into a marketing coup by being the first to announce the contrary.

 

If the bottom line is what counts, it would be interesting to know how many loyal Seabourn customers were turned away from this mentioned Sojourn cruise during the peak summer cruise season only to cruise on another line. It would also be interesting to know what percentage of the paying passengers on this same cruise made on board bookings for future cruises compared to those on the other cruises this same season.

[cruising kirby]

Today I received an email from the "Office of the President" of Seabourn. I am very happy to report that I received an apology for the "discomfort" caused by having this group on board, together with an assurance that the matter has been reviewed and steps are being taken to ensure that there will not be a recurrence of that situation in the future.

 

As a gesture of goodwill I was also given a future cruise credit to be utilised in the next 12 months.

 

The email has come as a very pleasant surprise. I must admit I did think that my feedback delivered on board the Sojourn would just disappear into a black hole and once I was off the ship, the whole matter would be denied/dismissed/never addressed further.

 

Receiving a quick response from the highest level in the organisation shows how seriously Seabourn has taken the feedback, recognising the significant impact the group had on the cruise experience of so many, and the substantial damage that has been done to the Seabourn brand.

 

I now have confidence to book again with Seabourn, I suspect that senior management has learned a valuable lesson in the last week. For all of us who love Seabourn, let's hope that they don't have a short memory.

 

Thanks again to everyone who provided supportive comment and advice, it has been much appreciated.

[whystayhome]

Today I received an email from the "Office of the President" of Seabourn. I am very happy to report that I received an apology for the "discomfort" caused by having this group on board, together with an assurance that the matter has been reviewed and steps are being taken to ensure that there will not be a recurrence of that situation in the future.

 

As a gesture of goodwill I was also given a future cruise credit to be utilised in the next 12 months.

 

The email has come as a very pleasant surprise. I must admit I did think that my feedback delivered on board the Sojourn would just disappear into a black hole and once I was off the ship, the whole matter would be denied/dismissed/never addressed further.

 

Receiving a quick response from the highest level in the organisation shows how seriously Seabourn has taken the feedback, recognising the significant impact the group had on the cruise experience of so many, and the substantial damage that has been done to the Seabourn brand.

 

I now have confidence to book again with Seabourn, I suspect that senior management has learned a valuable lesson in the last week. For all of us who love Seabourn, let's hope that they don't have a short memory.

 

Thanks again to everyone who provided supportive comment and advice, it has been much appreciated.

 

The week before our 2-week cruise on the Odyssey this summer, a corporate group had chartered the entire boat. The passengers were much younger than the typical Seabourn demographic. Numerous crew members (not officers) told us how awful it was: rudeness, drunkenness, boisterousness and general unsavory behavior. The ship ran out of some brands of liquor. The crew was exhausted and apparently traumatized. Many times they spontaneously volunteered the information that they were so happy to have their usual clientele back. One fellow on the deck told us he felt like he was on vacation with us. A waiter said that he had not signed up to work on Carnival!

 

One of the [many] things I like about Seabourn, and Silversea and Crystal as well, is that generally everyone behaves. Friends joined us this summer in part because I had assured them this would be the case. Good thing there wasn't a group on board to destroy the Seabourn ambience.

[markham]

cruising kirby,

 

I am glad to read about the response you received from Seabourn Management and how you feel about it.

 

Happy sailing!

[skincruisers]

Dear Cruising Kirby I'm impressed. My feeling is that the AU office are probably feeling a little chastened that what was (probably) their booking has created such a ruckus.

 

I expect that my concerns expressed to Seattle will also get proper attention.

 

Good on Seabourn to (a) realise there was an issue on social media and (b) doing something about it.

 

All we need now is for the President of Seabourn to recognise that there was never a legal issue here and that if a future cruiser does ask the question then they can be informed of the presence/absence of a group (no names) of over 20. Then, if that passenger does proceed they can hardly complain unless the behaviour of the group is so bad as to be a real worry.