Currently on Sojourn, very large group on board

[wripro]

This might also be a bit of a testament to the power of CC. I am sure this thread has not escaped Mr. Meadow's attention.

[cruising kirby]

This might also be a bit of a testament to the power of CC. I am sure this thread has not escaped Mr. Meadow's attention.

 

Yes I think you may be correct.

[UKCruiseJeff]

SB's management should be congratulated on providing a level of prompt apology and reassurance from executive level to their customers. Response doesn't get much better in terms of speed than this and they have certainly impressed me. However the reassurance for the future is somewhat vague, and therefore cannot be left fully taken at face value, until further detail of how these issues will be prevented in the future. I don't understand exactly what they can do except cancel all forward group bookings. They haven't said they will.

 

Hopefully the reassurances provided will be underpinned with concrete delivery and the refusal to accept further bookings from large groups unless they fully charter. But that hasn't been promised. I do see that the reassurances are actually vague and unspecific and whilst an apology is welcome I see no specific promises that can justify complete confidence for future cruises. In hotels groups can be funnelled to separate conference and banqueting rooms. this cannot happen on small ships. If a customer wishes to move out, they can do this in hotels, but it isn't as easy on a cruise. the experience level of staff on cruises seems lower than 5* hotels to deal with these issues. And we understand what a toxic mix a large group enjoying free booze can be. And when "imprisoned" with a large group that were not expecting to be sharing in this way it remains in my view insoluble.

 

I believe therefore that prospective customers should reassure and protect themselves by probing further and still asking the specific questions i outlined earlier. I find it difficult to believe that there are no further forward bookings of large groups, and staff will be mandated to ensure those large groups fully enjoy themselves as freely as they wish on board. Staff will do anything to avoid receiving complaints from these large groups.

 

If management renege on the reassurances they have given that will of course be a whole new game, but for the time being it sounds like they have listened and responded positively but the devil is in the detail, and there is none.

 

I repeat this is none of my business, just trying to help.

 

:)

[MrsWaldo]

This large group issue is why i jumped ship and started cruising to a certain extent

 

We stayed on a small island and it was chasing conferences and weddings. turned up and 80% were there for one event. Not all inclusive but they had a daily budget. They BYO alcohol, were drunk in the pool at 1am outside our room, argued with bar staff over the cost of drinks …. after spending a LOT of money there over 6 years … never been back.. that week they lost 20% of people who were return guests.

 

Bet they didn't pick up 20% new guests who would return

[UKCruiseJeff]

Oddly ... and this is absolutely true. The worst larger group we encountered on a cruise was on Silversea, and it was the owners extended family. They were noisy around the pool and badly behaved and were not controlled by "nanny", and when the owner was late returning to the ship naturally the ship was delayed waiting for him.

 

The group booking risk and my aversion to poorly controlled kids are two of the main impediments to us making forward cruise bookings. On land you can escape. On a small ship you are stuck.

 

:)

[MrsWaldo]

Jeff if only

 

 

the island was one and only resort surrounded by national park… an island unto thee

 

No day trippers, no marina berths… only the islands approved arrival and departure system

 

No way to escape other than the approved schedule

[UKCruiseJeff]

Jeff if only

 

 

the island was one and only resort surrounded by national park… an island unto thee

 

No day trippers, no marina berths… only the islands approved arrival and departure system

 

No way to escape other than the approved schedule

 

Absolutely. A ship and an island are both islands though ... aren't they? It's just that one moves and the other doesn't?

 

:)

Edited August 17, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff
spelling

[Capri73]

Oddly ... and this is absolutely true. The worst larger group we encountered on a cruise was on Silversea, and it was the owners extended family. They were noisy around the pool and badly behaved and were not controlled by "nanny", and when the owner was late returning to the ship naturally the ship was delayed waiting for him.

 

The group booking risk and my aversion to poorly controlled kids are two of the main impediments to us making forward cruise bookings. On land you can escape. On a small ship you are stuck.

 

:)

 

It sounds like we were on the same cruise.

[UKCruiseJeff]

It sounds like we were on the same cruise.

 

Do you remember which one? Might have been the same one!

 

:)

[skincruisers]

I've just had a lengthy conversation with Natasha (team leader Seabourn Reservations in Sydney). She now informs me that the previous written advice from the Business Development Manager at Seabourn Australia, that Seabourn were constrained legally from telling intending passengers about group bookings was incorrect.

 

In fact they do not inform passengers about the potential of group bookings "because that is the company policy". Apparently it's got nothing to do with the legalities; rather it's just that they don't wish to inform intending passengers about such matters.

 

One positive was that she did agree to provide me with written advice that I had asked about this, and that she would detail the "company response". I indicated per previous blogs on CC, that I required such a letter.

 

Natasha indicated that Seabourn staff on board the cruise ships were more than able to cope with groups that were unruly, and that she was sure that what had apparently occurred during an August cruise was more than happily dealt with by the Cruise Director.

 

I did indicate to her that my advice (per these blogs) was that the Captain had to get involved and that there were certainly some passengers who had received apologies from the President of Seabourn. As before, she indicated that she knew nothing about that particular cruise; or Seattle's response!!

 

Help please. I'd like to contact the President of Seabourn cruises. Natasha indicated that she was more than happy for me to seek his advice on this matter. Does anyone have an email address?

[nolatravelgirl]

There is no way any corporate entity is going to tell you about a group booking. If you are worried about large bookings, then google is your friend and will almost always pop up the web page of whatever large organzation that will be occupying. Frankly, there is no reason for Seabourn to disclose to do so, because even though "Group X" may have been rowdy, there is no direct correlation that "Group Y" will act the same way. You also have no way of knowing whether "Small Group Z" will be the problem group even though they are a group of college buddies who all happened to book together. I take a case in point that we met a large family (20 or so) booked via the grandparents and they were a lovely bunch and I chatted with several of the family members, however the most disturbing group on one cruise was a family of 9 who were straight out of the Jersey Shore (I am sure they were related to JWOWW and Snooki) and we were much more disruptive. Heck even non "groups" can get rowdy at times. On a cruise with 450 passengers if more than 20 in a group is your tolerance level for a "good cruise" then I suggest private yacht where you control the guest list.

 

Seabourn placated the original poster with a patronizing note and a cruise credit. Trust me that Seabourn is the winner. Yes, you got a discount, but it was a pacifier. They are not giving up the group bookings anytime soon.

[Grumpy Wombat]

@ skincruisers.

What, exactly, do you want the CEO to do? He's not going to change company policy and disallow group bookings. They are a lucrative part of the cruising business and he's not going to turn away that kind of revenue even if it annoys a few other customers. If you want advance warning of groups on your planned cruise you might get a heads up but if they know you will cancel or demand refunds and/or compensation in those circumstances you can hardly blame them for being circumspect about letting you know.

 

It's all about the bottom line and always will be.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Grumpy Wombat

[skincruisers]

Dear Grumpy Wombat. I'm not seeking that the CEO change policy and disallow group bookings. I well understand that he's running a business. All I'd like to know is that if there is a group of (say) greater than 30 or 40 passengers then I can't see why intending passengers can't be told --- but only if we specifically ask. I guess its because he can take our booking and deal with any difficulties we have later!!

 

To me it's a bit like going to an adults only island to find that they have allowed children for a specific period because a large group (including children) took over 60% of the available accommodation.

[nolatravelgirl]

To me it's a bit like going to an adults only island to find that they have allowed children for a specific period because a large group (including children) took over 60% of the available accommodation.

 

I completely disagree! While this group of passengers on your sailing may know each other, you equate them all to children. :confused: You just considered yourself above these people and deemed that you were required compensation for dealing with the riff raff. If I want to pay for an entire group of frat boys to join the cruise (as full paying guests) then why should Seabourn inform you as whether you may find the other guests tolerable. Again there is no rule that groups of friends book together under a single booking.

[markham]

Nolatravelgirl,

 

Be careful calling out people whom you believe hold themselves higher/better (or whatever you mean) than others. You were not on that cruise and you don't know the dynamics that the parties and their actions had on everyone. Seems like a childish and simplistic point to throw out on this board.

 

I think it is a simple assumption that the usual couple or couple of couples who make up most of a Seabourn cruise do not want to be run over by a noisy incentive group or even irritated by a couple of rowdy teenagers, a drunken abusive senior or anyone else. The difference is that a couple can complain about any of the above to the Hotel Manager who can have a word with them or their parent. But he may not have as much control over a group. Hopefully he does though and can be as effective.

 

Anyway, Seabourn gets the message even if you do not. That's why the Seattle office has told me that on my upcoming cruise there is no incentive group so far nor are there any so far through the end of the year. I hope it stays that way.

 

Seabourn obviously knows too not to upset regular cruisers. Incentive groups can blend in better in larger ships. And maybe there no one will care. But starting now a lot of Seabourn regulars have indicated that they do care.

 

Happy sailing!

[nolatravelgirl]

Nolatravelgirl,

 

Be careful calling out people whom you believe hold themselves higher/better (or whatever you mean) than others. You were not on that cruise and you don't know the dynamics that the parties and their actions had on everyone. Seems like a childish and simplistic point to throw out on this board.

 

I think it is a simple assumption that the usual couple or couple of couples who make up most of a Seabourn cruise do not want to be run over by a noisy incentive group or even irritated by a couple of rowdy teenagers, a drunken abusive senior or anyone else. The difference is that a couple can complain about any of the above to the Hotel Manager who can have a word with them or their parent. But he may not have as much control over a group. Hopefully he does though and can be as effective.

 

Anyway, Seabourn gets the message even if you do not. That's why the Seattle office has told me that on my upcoming cruise there is no incentive group so far nor are there any so far through the end of the year. I hope it stays that way.

 

Seabourn obviously knows too not to upset regular cruisers. Incentive groups can blend in better in larger ships. And maybe there no one will care. But starting now a lot of Seabourn regulars have indicated that they do care.

 

Happy sailing!

Do you really think Seabourn would disclose the passenger demographic to you? Seriously, suppose you found some of a specific ethnicity to your disliking, do you think Seabourn would disclose to you that X% of the passengers would be to your disliking?

 

Paying passengers are paying passengers, whether you like that they paid their own fare or "paid" for their fare via hard work earned via a corporate incentive program. Where is it said that Seabourn is giving these corporations cut rate F&F rock bottom rates. I know for a fact that my company pays tippy toppy dollar for many of our "vacation" learning weeks as it is rolled into our compensation packages. Your attitude harkens back to the days of segregation, doesn't matter if you can pay the fare if you are part of the minority then your dollars don't spend here. :rolleyes:

[Grumpy Wombat]

I think the risk of encountering a rowdy, disruptive group on a Seabourn cruise is still sufficiently remote that it won't make us reconsider our plans. Of course I may live to regret this stance if we are unlucky enough to find ourselves sailing on the SS Frathouse but it's still a risk I'm prepared to take. I'm more likely to cancel if I discover I'm in a suite next door to some dedicated verandah smokers and Seabourne can't give me advance warning of those either.

[markham]

nolatravelgirl,

 

In response to your question, and I am only answering it to support my point, I believe what my contact at Seabourn head office told me. OK?

 

And to be clear... If I have a complaint I WILL make it known to the Hotel Manager or other officer, as appropriate, Seabourn head office and on this board. It's in everyone's interest to speak up and be heard. That's how

Seabourn runs its business and its head office has always lent a supportive ear. And their tone has been respectful and answers credible.

 

And calm down about segregation allusions. Not thoughtful or imaginative or convincing.

 

Happy sailing!

[skincruisers]

Dear Markham, You at least get the point.

 

It's not about ethnic groups, frat groups or any other sort of mob.

 

It's just that on a small cruise ship such a group can (and I don't mean will) cause discomfort to other passengers for a whole host of reasons. It's not really an issue for bigger ships as there are motte facilities available to lessen any intrusion.

 

On our Silver Whisper cruise last year it was that they ran a conference in the main theatre area and the main bar. That meant the other pax were relegated to another bar. All normal passenger functions (tour advice lectures, trivia etc) were relegated to the pool area or the remaining bar; or were not held. The staff kept apologising but there was nothing they could really do. Having large areas of the ship turned into smoking zones for this cruise only were an added distraction. Being turned away from the Italian restaurant because the group had booked it out for 3 out of 7 nights was also a negative. After that sort of trip we felt we had a right to tell Silverseas we were not happy. They couldn't have cared less.

 

Based on such an experience all I'd like Seabourn to do is tell me if they are running a conference on board or have a large group. If they won't I'm OK with that ----- at least I know it is their policy and I can use that fact if (heaven forbid) we happened to get onto a cruise like our journey on the Silver Whisper.

[UKCruiseJeff]

1. It has never been against any law to disclose whether there are group booking on a cruise or not. There has never any law to prevent SB stating who the name of a group is although they could state it as being commercially something they wish not to give. There are privacy laws in many geographics to prevent giving the names of individual passengers unless they have given positive consent. The reason why organisations do not want to disclose group bookings is either because group bookings may not have yet been fully contracted and under discussion or more likely simply because in doing so thereis only potential downside for them ie a loss of bookings. They will not gain bookings only lose them and as has been suggested, they obviously prefer to take the cash now and resolve any issues later.

 

2. There is nothing wrong or sinister in asking whether there is a future group booking on a ship. It is unfortunate that anyone should suggest this. It is a prudent thing to ask and be disclosed if customer satisfaction is the ultimate aspiration.

 

3. It is for an individual to decide whether this is an issue that concerns them or not. If it does and it is flagged to the company and the company is asked if there is a group booking, but the request for the information is avoided or rebuffed then the company has increased it's vulnerability to a potential future claim under consumer laws in various geographics in the way I have previously described. This is because the company avoided taking sensible action in avoiding the claim by simply providing the requested information required for a customer to make a more informed choice about the suitability of the specific cruise for them. Even if the company provides information but the large group disrupts the ambience a passenger should reasonably expect they are still vulnerable for a claim as they are simply in breach of the contract, including any reasonably implied terms.

 

4. If SB does read this then there is an honourable and prudent solution to this and that is to create a segment in their product range for "quasi charters" ie for a cruise when a substantial element of the bookings are with a single group that could reasonably be expected to change the ambience of a cruise, but where there is insufficient numbers for a full charter. The solution is to perhaps to ask your regular customers when they complete their "interests" section on their profile whether they would like to be offered at a discount cruises access to cruises at the last minute that are quasi charters. This might help improve last minute occupancy and offer loyal passengers who are less bothered a decent informed deal.

 

I repeat, I am not affected by this, just trying to help others by highlighting that many of SBs customers have recourse should things turn out to be unsatisfactory by making requirements clearer at the outset.

 

Let us not overlook that this also helps cruise line operators as they can make more informed choices about what is better for both them and their customers when considering the group travel business and it's suitability for their particular ships and it's fit for it's other customers.

 

Happy travels.

[MrsWaldo]

1.e cash now and resolve any issues later.

 

2. There is nothing wrong or sinister in asking whether there is a future group booking on a ship. It is unfortunate that anyone should suggest this. It is a prudent thing to ask and be disclosed if customer satisfaction is the ultimate aspiration.

 

3. It is for an individual to decide whether this is an issue that concerns them or not.

 

Happy travels.

 

 

yes and that is why I never went back to the very upmarket island… they had 2 large bookings of a wedding group and then a conference… I wasn't booking the same product

 

Why would I pay for an experience I was not going to get… the islands response was subs standard… we have no booking requirements. i then found an island that had if you want more than 6 rooms (12 people/40) you will need to charter the island

solved

[jenidallas]

I was on the same cruise that nolatravelgirl mentions with the lovely large family. They told us that Seabourn had requested that if they wanted to dine together in the evenings, that they needed to stick to the Restaurant and were given a specific time/table at which to eat each evening. Likewise one evening when they wanted to have pre-dinner drinks, they were given a specific section of tables in the Observation Bar.

 

Now I guess as guests, we could complain that they were allowed to take up a large part of the dining room each evening - or that they were allowed to take over a section of the Observation Bar. Or we could look at this as "the Odyssey staff did a great job of making sure that the larger group was served without compromising service to the other passengers".

 

I definitely don't want to be the outsider on a rowdy group cruise either. But corporate cruising is a reality - ad Seabourn's interest is in growing a new generation of cruisers. A corporation who is willing to pay Seabourn prices to incentivize their staff probably also pays salaries that can afford Seabourn cruising.

 

In the travel industry, everyone is focused on the next wave of loyalty which means targeting a demographic lower than the current wave of customers. Hotels and airlines are now focusing on millennials. Cruise lines are focusing on the generation x crowd. I don't see that changing.

[lincslady]

jenidallas - there is a pretty big difference between a family group of about 20 and a corporate group of some 120 or even 140, don't you think? Have you ever been on a cruise with a group this size?

 

We have in the past encountered two very small groups who caused problems - one of two couples who drank so much from the first night and made so much noise that they were put on an amber and then a red warning, we were told, which quietened them down, and another group of about 10 of whom 3 were actually put off the ship by the Captain. They were obviously a nuisance, but it was not difficult to avoid them. And they did not take up huge amounts of room in any bars or restaurants, etc.

[jenidallas]

I have... just not on Seabourn. And my personal experience is a non sequitur to what I posted.

 

And I don't disagree that it's annoying. But it's also a reality that Seabourn isn't going to ban large groups until they are at a point where demand for individual bookings exceeds the what they can currently sell. That's was my first point.

 

My second point is that the industry continues to evolve. Seabourn *will* change. We won't like every change either.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I have... just not on Seabourn. And my personal experience is a non sequitur to what I posted.

 

And I don't disagree that it's annoying. But it's also a reality that Seabourn isn't going to ban large groups until they are at a point where demand for individual bookings exceeds the what they can currently sell. That's was my first point.

 

My second point is that the industry continues to evolve. Seabourn *will* change. We won't like every change either.

 

I think several are posting at "cross purposes".

 

What you say is absolutely correct. Everything moves on. The early warning sign is when 6 star lines expand their bed count. If they do then it almost inevitably means a move for greater volume which also inevitaby means what you say.

 

However, not all cruises need be that way. Some could try to be perfect, and others will be compromised by a move to accept large groups knowing what that will inevitably mean to those that don't want it and didn't expect it.

 

The issue about potential future SB customers being amongst the group bookings is a red herring. The same person can be different people. For example, young men often behave differently when with their wives and families than with their work buddies on a "drink all you can for free" works "outing". That means in my view that there is an area of "clear blue sky" for a line to consolidate and not expand but stay small and offer a 6 star experience at higher fares but with exceptional quality and without being poluted with large group bookings. That is what many SS and SB customers expect.

 

There is a market for people that will pay a bit more but for a much better product without the irritations and that is clearly a very smalle niche market not being satisfied.

 

Until then there is nothing wrong with asking lines "do you have any large groups booked on this cruise, if so what is their "affiliation", how many of them will there be and what do you believe will be their average age?".

 

That to me seems sensible and cost nothing.

 

:)