Currently on Sojourn, very large group on board

[Jim Avery]

I absolutely agree with you, but my question is where would we go??

 

All of the luxury lines seem to mix large groups and loyal customers, so there is not a line i know that you wouldn't experience this problem on.

 

I do believe that the lines should have specific weeks in their calendar that group bookings are permitted, and let them sail together. The rest of us wouldn't be too concerned then.

 

I just cant imagine the groups being massively profitable, with the amounts they consume, maybe I'm wrong!!

 

Not to forget they usually get a considerable discount as part of that group.

[oregon50]

150 suites x 7 = 1050 days. All wrapped up in a tidy package and finished in one week. How long will it take you to get to 1000 days? It's a good business decision. If you are affected, ask for compensation. You will get something and it will be based upon your history and what you have on the books for future billings. I agree, it's a horrible thing to have happen to you.

But you have real blinders on if you think any hotel/cruise line does not solicit this type of business.

[kathy16]

There were 2 affinity groups on my SB Spirit Caribbean sailing a few years ago. One was an incentive group of car salesmen, the other was a multi-site divorce lawyer company (representing the male client)- who also had business meetings on board. All were reasonably well behaved, but on the small ship the numbers overwhelmed the rest of the passengers. I heard those bookings were done relatively last minute.

Now, I always ask my TA about affinity groups when I book a cruise, but I never get a straight answer.

[Grumpy Wombat]

The likelihood of these groups "invading" also depends largely on itinerary and timing. Caribbean and Mediterranean 7 day cruises seem more likely to attract groups than longer trips further away from the groups' home base but you can never be sure. In the end we just have to take the risk and if we are unlucky enough to be adversely affected it's important to let Seabourn know loud and clear that it's not acceptable - a bit like smoking on verandahs. They'll really listen to us then ha ha ha :rolleyes:

[ellie1145]

You are right. I guess the only sure way to not notice is to sail Carnival. That way you could not tell the difference.:eek::D

 

Doesn't Carnival own Seabourne? ;):D

[cruising kirby]

I have no intention of "naming and shaming" the group involved. Actually in a rather obscure way I now feel sorry for them. Clearly they were out for a party and someone gave them bad advice that Seabourn would be the right choice for their celebratory holiday. I remain very disappointed that Seabourn would accept such a large group, as a luxury brand that promotes elegant travel, surely the "red flags" should have been up when the booking was accepted. I think we should continue to pressure Seabourn to let us know when we book (and before we make final payment) if a large group will be on board so we can make our own decisions about taking the cruise or not.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I am currently on the Sojourn and we have a large group of around 120 - 140 (actual number has been difficult to determine), on board. I won't advise the company involved, but all the group are here as part of a reward scheme for sales of a particular product, and are travelling for free. It has caused major distress to the rest of the guests and the first two days of the cruise were absolutely horrendous. Bad language, drunken behaviour, people "bombing" into the pool etc. To the absolute credit of the crew, steps were taken to control the worst of the behaviour and they have been reasonably effective, but I am sad to say that the atmosphere on board is just not the Seabourn I love.

 

 

Hi, sorry to hear of your problem. I don't post on SB and I'm only posting to suggest as I haven't seen it suggested - that as an Australian with excellent consumer protection laws and easy resolution processes that give you excellent recourse for situations like this, I suggest you consider the following approach.

 

1. Decide how much value you believed you received for your cruise. This is a matter of judgement but let's say you feel that 25% of the cost of the cruise is what you should pay.

 

2. Write to SB explaining that you consider them to be in breach of the contract you have with you for failing to provide a cruise in accordance with expectations created generally and specifically on their website.

 

Specifically they failed to provide:

 

From the moment you first step aboard Seabourn, you'll be part of an exclusive circle, the privileged few, who have discovered the true joys of yachting.

 

Aboard Seabourn, your dreams will come true

 

The Seabourn ExperienceSM is whatever you want it to be and so much more.

 

etc, etc.

 

Explain your experience and why "it wasn't what you wanted it to be" and seek (say) a 75% refund. You obviuously didn't want to be on a cruise with a large noisy incentive group because many incentive groups behave in a fairly predictable way that is reasonably to be expected at being at odds with the ambience you and SB expect.

 

3. They will try to wriggle out of this by referring you to small print in the Terms and Conditions. Unfair Cosnumer Terms and Conditions are uneforeceable and void in Australia. You can completely ignore them. I personally (and you seem to agree) think you didn't receive what you reasonably should have been.

 

4. If they fail to offer you acceptable compensation then follow the guidance that starts here ......

 

http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/Content.aspx?doc=fact_sheets/FAQ.htm

 

http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/fact_sheets/_downloads/brochure_FAQ.pdf

 

If you bought through an Australian TA or on the telephone with SS directly or through a website whilst you were in Australia even with a "foreign website" (all foreign organsiations have to comply with Australian law when "trading" in Ozland), Australian law deems you covered by these laws.

 

Nothing is ever 100% certain in these things and I cannot provide any further advice on this but hopefully I have provided you with encouragement and a starting point. If more people did this when they behave in this way then corporations would realise that treating customers fairly is good sensible business.

 

As far as I am aware, US citizens do not have the same consumer protection but UK residents have almost identical laws, as Oz followed ours.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Jeff

 

 

 

.

Edited August 12, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff

[Jim Avery]

Doesn't Carnival own Seabourne? ;):D

 

Yes.

[Flamin_June]

Thanks UKCruiseJeff

 

very helpful and useful advice - I have saved and filed for future reference.

 

As much as I like being on the ships, SB' s land based operation has, on more than one occasion, left much to be desired. It's good to learn a few moves in case one needs to fight back.

[UKCruiseJeff]

duplicate

Edited August 12, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff

[UKCruiseJeff]

Pleased to help.

 

In the UK the claim for remedy is all completed online and the whole process for registering via Governmentgateway to moneyclaim takes around 10 minutes for a summons to be issued. It is very easy.

 

The easiest approach is first:

 

http://www.gateway.gov.uk/

 

Government gateway is your entrance to all UK govenrment services including stuff like UK pension projections etc ....

 

What is the Government Gateway?

The Government Gateway is the website you use to register for online government services. It is an important part of the government's strategy of delivering 'joined up' government, enabling people to communicate and make transactions with government from a single point of entry.

 

 

Then using your registration log into

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

It is very easy. If they do not respond with a receipt or defence in 14 days, you apply for judgement and this is done automatically and you have won your case. If not it moves on and some but few end up in a small informal hearing in the nearest county court to your home. Most companies will pay up, and very few cases proceed to a hearing. There is a small fee which will be paid by the company you are issuing against when you win.

 

You may also find it useful to read:

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_protection_for_the_consumer_e/consumer_contracts_e/unfair_terms_in_consumer_contracts.htm

 

Some unfair exclusions you may be interested in:

 

Here are some examples of contract terms that may be unfair:

•any term which is very difficult to understand, perhaps because of the language or print size

•a term which tries to prevent you from carrying out your legal rights, for example, your right to a refund for faulty goods

•a term which tries to prevent you from taking a trader to court

•a term saying the trader is not responsible for a death or injury caused by something they have or haven't done

•a term saying the trader is not responsible for delays, even delays which are their fault

•a term saying the trader is not responsible if they don't do what they should do under the contract

•a term which tries to prevent you from keeping back payments when you have a genuine complaint about goods or services

•a term which tries to make you pay more than is needed to cover the trader's losses if you cancel the contract

•any term hidden from you until after you sign the contract

•a term giving the trader wide cancellation rights but not giving you the same rights

•a term giving the trader the right to change the contract to their benefit

•a term that makes it very difficult for you to end a contract - for example, a term making you pay high termination charges or give a long notice period.

 

It has also been established in the UK in a recent holiday case that cancellation charges should not exceed an amount reasonable to compesnate for administration costs only. As you will also see cancellation rights must be mirror-imaged ie you have exactly the same right to cancel as the cruise line.

 

 

 

Jeff

Edited August 12, 2014 by UKCruiseJeff

[tv24]

Cruising Kirby, I am very sorry that you are having to cope with this ugly, unacceptable and potentially dangerous situation. I feel for you, the other PAYING guests and the crew as well.

 

Now to try to salvage the rest of your holiday, i recommend sending a discreet note to the Guest Relations manager asking to have complimentary access to the Serene area of the Spa due to this terrible inconvenience.

 

Once home, I would send a detailed letter to corporate and negociate a deeply discounted future cruise, that is if you are willing to en trust your precious vacation time to Seabourn again.

 

Good luck and try to enjoy yourselves regardless.

 

This is a great idea, and I hope you are able to do it, Kirby. How about asking that Restaurant 2 be set aside for the pax who are not in the rowdy special crowd? Pushing the envelope in the hope you get the cruise you bargained for...

[Patti22]

Cruising Kirby

Has the crew been successful in curbing the bad behavior onboard? I certainly hope so for your sake.

[wripro]

Whether Carnival owns Seabourn is irrelevant. As has been mentioned previously all luxury lines book large groups. I recall a long thread on the Crystal board a couple of years ago where most were complaining about a large Bridge group that took over the whole ship and destroyed the experience for the rest of the passengers. Apparently, in these days and times it's part of the economic scene.

[markham]

UKCruiseJeff,

 

You are worth your weight in gold. Thank you for putting the complaints issue and process in the UK in perspective!

 

Happy sailing!

[Mr Luxury]

Whether Carnival owns Seabourn is irrelevant. As has been mentioned previously all luxury lines book large groups. I recall a long thread on the Crystal board a couple of years ago where most were complaining about a large Bridge group that took over the whole ship and destroyed the experience for the rest of the passengers. Apparently, in these days and times it's part of the economic scene.

 

Yes Henry.money talks

 

I cannot see any company doing other than rubbing their hands together and taking the money.

I know that the loyal regulars on a cruise line will often be inconvenienced but the cruise lines will take the money every time.

[Mr Luxury]

Pleased to help.

 

In the UK the claim for remedy is all completed online and the whole process for registering via Governmentgateway to moneyclaim takes around 10 minutes for a summons to be issued. It is very easy.

 

The easiest approach is first:

 

http://www.gateway.gov.uk/

 

Government gateway is your entrance to all UK govenrment services including stuff like UK pension projections etc ....

 

 

 

 

Then using your registration log into

 

https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

 

It is very easy. If they do not respond with a receipt or defence in 14 days, you apply for judgement and this is done automatically and you have won your case. If not it moves on and some but few end up in a small informal hearing in the nearest county court to your home. Most companies will pay up, and very few cases proceed to a hearing. There is a small fee which will be paid by the company you are issuing against when you win.

 

You may also find it useful to read:

 

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_protection_for_the_consumer_e/consumer_contracts_e/unfair_terms_in_consumer_contracts.htm

 

Some unfair exclusions you may be interested in:

 

 

 

It has also been established in the UK in a recent holiday case that cancellation charges should not exceed an amount reasonable to compesnate for administration costs only. As you will also see cancellation rights must be mirror-imaged ie you have exactly the same right to cancel as the cruise line.

 

 

 

Jeff

 

Good advice Jeff,thanks for posting.

[Sunprince]

A recent review in the CC review section titled "Chaos on Seabourn" mentions a large group of Australians occupying almost half of the cabins. Could this be the same cruise or a different one?

[Nevian]

A recent review in the CC review section titled "Chaos on Seabourn" mentions a large group of Australians occupying almost half of the cabins. Could this be the same cruise or a different one?

 

Oh Goodness, this review makes me feel ashamed to be Australian. What a frightful experience the paying guests must have had.

 

Cruising Kirby, I hope you follow the advice from UK re filing a consumer claim. It certainly sounds warranted.

 

I trust we see in the coming weeks a statement from Seattle office. Perhaps the review and the noise on this forum will produce a few policy changes. Yes incentive groups will always be around but surely they can be managed better than this in terms of ratios to regular customers.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[lincslady]

A recent review in the CC review section titled "Chaos on Seabourn" mentions a large group of Australians occupying almost half of the cabins. Could this be the same cruise or a different one?

 

Surely the same one - they couldn't have inflicted this twice in the space of a few weeks, surely?:rolleyes:

[CraftyEC]

As the review states that the sailing was in August 2014 it must be the same one.

 

Not that the nationality makes much difference as such, sadly when you get large groups of alcohol-fuelled revellers of any background you tend to get boorish behaviour and a loss of consideration for others outside their peer group.

 

I would be upset if there was such a large group on a mainline cruise ship, but would accept it. If I encountered it on Seabourn I would be shocked and devastated as it would change the experience from my expectation proportionately more.

[lincslady]

Yes, I was sure it was the same cruise. I quite agree about nationality - any group can be disruptive, even fairly small ones. If you are in one, you are understandably inclined to ignore the other passengers in order to enjoy life with your friends/family/colleagues.

 

We have come across the odd group of even only 6 people who have been a bit disruptive, but of course the numbers make an enormous difference. The more I read the more I feel sorry for the staff on board, almost as much as the other passengers. As for being advised not to go into the main dining room because they were all going in there together, I would have been absolutely apoplectic - but not with the onboard staff.

 

Maybe someone who knows how to do it could get something into an influential cruising magazine - Seabourn Head Office really need to fear people leaving in droves because of this sort of thing.

[UKCruiseJeff]

I would be upset if there was such a large group on a mainline cruise ship, but would accept it. If I encountered it on Seabourn I would be shocked and devastated as it would change the experience from my expectation proportionately more.

 

 

I am butting in again even though this is basically none of my business. Just trying to be helpful.

 

Most cruises are of course fine, but that is the reason why these issues should be pursued vigorously firstly with the line and then through the simple claim procedure.

 

SB (and others) make a commercial decision to compromise the enjoyment of their other customers by accepting large group incentive bookings. They will know that there is little that can be done by cruise staff to minimise the effect as staff do not wish to generate complaints. They are placed in an impossible position by their employers and have to reconcile demands of two groups - a group on a freeby who are going to behave differently from the others. They must therefore be made to see that there are financial consequences for reneging on what they "promise" (including imply) to their other customers and fail to take reasonable steps to provide. Accepting incentive bookings ie quasi charters is inevitably going to change the product. They must be made to see through customer pressure and financial and reputational consequences that they must provide what they promise or imply.

 

What I recommend customers do when booking cruises is always to take the following action to both ensure the cruise lines understand how seriously this is taken and then pave the way for subsequent action if need be if all fails. This advice only covers (in full) geographics with robust consumer protection ie probably excluding US passengers.

 

1. If this issue is important to you (not all are bothered!) then when contemplating a booking write to both TA and cruise line asking them to declare whether they currently have or expect any large group or incentive bookings of say more than 20 people, as you believe from experience that such bookings inevitably risk compromising your enjoyment of the cruise. Ask to be kept informed of any forward incentive or group bookings. They will probably refuse. It doesn't matter. You have registered your concern and the importance you attatch to this issue. They ignore that concern at their risk.

 

2. If you start a cruise and find a large noisy group, alert the hotel manager to your concern and your previous letter to the line. Explain that you will be pursuing a complaint if the group is inadequately controlled and your enjoyment in any way compromised. Make it clear that you see this as being a potentially serious issue as - unlike a land-based hotel for example - you cannot change and are effectively held prisoner in an environment you find oppressive. Confirm all conversations in writing and ask for a receipt for any letter you hand over.

 

3. Keep as much evidence as you can eg names and addresses of other travellers, video, photographs etc.

 

4. When you return formulate a claim of what you believe to be a reasonable percent of THE TOTAL COST of the cruise including any ancilaiary costs of air fares etc. Conclude a reasonable amount for vexation, aggravation and dissapointment including compensation for the loss of "annual holiday".

 

5. Follow the procedure I outlined in the two posts for Ozland and UK above.

 

I am genuinly trying to help but do not wish to get involved in side-debates about the "compensation culture" which I consider to be irrelevant to this issue. Sad that such action is needed but we get the customer service we both "deserve" but only when we insist on it.

 

Good luck all!

 

Jeff

[Prunella1]

This is such good advice Jeff, and although it's none of my business either, we are loyal Seabourn cruisers, that it does ultimately affect us. I do hope that enough people on the Sojourn at the same time, will write with their complaints and claims. Although our next cruise is on the Legend, we will write to Seabourn beforehand stating our concerns and will do so with any future bookings we make, although if we were unfortunate enough to have an experience of this kind it would be the end of cruising with Seabourn for us.

[UKCruiseJeff]

This is such good advice Jeff, and although it's none of my business either, we are loyal Seabourn cruisers, that it does ultimately affect us. I do hope that enough people on the Sojourn at the same time, will write with their complaints and claims. Although our next cruise is on the Legend, we will write to Seabourn beforehand stating our concerns and will do so with any future bookings we make, although if we were unfortunate enough to have an experience of this kind it would be the end of cruising with Seabourn for us.

 

 

Thanks, happy to help.

 

May I just risk being flamed by also making the personal observation that although understandable, much of the heat has been directed to the behaviour of the travellers. This is understandable. But from their point of view they have won a cruise on a line they didn't choose and is unsuitable for a boozy party, and consider their prize a part of their pay package. They are not normal SB passengers and SB know this full well. They are there solely to party and enjoy themselves and make the experience memorable. I don't think therefore it entirely fair to blame them.

 

I think the energy directed at them should solely be directed at SB and to the other lines that do it for knowing full well they were breaching trust with their other customers but went ahead just the same.