Cruise tips for observant Jews

[ChipLondon]

Again thank you for your response, to which I reply with these comments.

 

1. I think I understand the principals applied and kindly explained

 

2. I just don't get why modern logic can be applied to some situations but not others, and understand why others might also be confused.

 

3. I do respect those that do.

 

4. Tolerance and acceptance of other lifestyles, ( whether understood or not ) makes the world a happier place for us all to co-exist

 

Many thanks and happy cruising to all.

[Ba' Datz]

Again thank you for your response, to which I reply with these comments.

 

2. I just don't get why modern logic can be applied to some situations but not others, and understand why others might also be confused.quote]

 

 

To be honest with you, I too get confused sometimes, saying, Why this yes and this no, but then in the end I rely on wiser Rabbis who understand the laws and where they are coming from, and what are their implications, to guide me and make the decisions.

[ChipLondon]

Like :d

 

 

 

to be honest with you, i too get confused sometimes, saying, why this yes and this no, but then in the end i rely on wiser rabbis who understand the laws and where they are coming from, and what are their implications, to guide me and make the decisions.

Edited September 3, 2014 by ChipLondon

[geoherb]

I've been on some cruise ships where they had one elevator set up for sabbath service so that it would stop on every level without anyone pressing a button. I don't know if they still do this since lately I've been trying to take the stairs all the time.

 

If your friend will eat vegetarian meals in a restaurant, he might like doing so on the cruise ship as well. I've seen the kosher meals and I was not impressed.

[navybankerteacher]

On most cruises I've been on there have been sabbath elevators programmed to stop on every floor - and appropriately marked. On a partial Panama Canal cruise there was a large group of observant Jews travelling in a group which had organized kosher meals in a separate area of the MDR - I would imagine that most lines would be glad to accomodate.

[smoosh21]

I agree with your premise but there is a difference.

 

For example, not feeling well on the Sabbath is not violating a Torah or Halachic (Jewish Law) prohibition. People who are sick on Shabbat are not "sinners". But you want to be as "well" as possible in order to enjoy all the things that the Sabbath gives you and your family.

 

On the other hand the things that you mentioned all concern direct violations of various rules of Sabbath law such as creation of new things, fire, and many more. (again way to wide for this discussion)

 

There the Orthodox Rabbis are much more hesitant to change and modernize and instead try to find ways to observe and be part of the 21st century but still observe the laws.

 

It is not easy but can be done. In fact, I do enjoy my cruises and hope to continue to do so

 

Last Summer, on the Mariner TA, there was a couple who brought all their own food on board with them. They had the head waiter come over and they were talking about having a special place for their food stored in the pantry. They were talking about making sure that their food was stored and how it was handled.

I don't know what they had to do to get this level of accomodation, but it didnt seem to be too big of a deal to the staff.

[SadieN]

Check out the Cruising Jewish board. All level of observance over there.

 

He really needs to ask his Rabbi.

There's a saying, 'two Jews, three opinions.'

 

Centuries ago when the Talumdists were figuring out what was work, they would bring in people to demonstrate all aspects of 'tying a knot'. They would dissect which step was work and what wasn't work. They spend days discussing a minute point.

Edited September 3, 2014 by SadieN

[csmjfmbe]

Dear All

As an avid cruiser, this has been one of the most informative threads I have seen on this forum.

On our travels, we have met people from all walks of life and have met many fantastic and interesting people, some of whom had religious beliefs that I knew nothing about.

I hope the OP and their friend have a wonderful time.

All the best

Mike

[marco]

I kind of breezed through the posts and didn't notice what ship/line you will be on. Some lines do kosher dinners quite well, some are abysmal! What line are you on? A few years ago we were on a Celebrity cruise and there was a large contingent who were part of "Kosherica" (I think that's what it was) They kashered a specific portion of the kitchen and the meals that came out were outstanding. Others that offer pre-packaged, frozen microwaved dinners on paper plates with plastic silverware are not too appetizing. As far as other restrictions, I'd just ask your rabbi.

[donaldsc]

Two points -

 

1. Why doesn't your friend do some research on this. I assume that he has internet and there are tons of "what is kosher" sites out there. He will know which ones are meet his religious requirements better than you do.

 

2. I know that strictly orthodox Jews can not ride in a vehicle on Shabbat. Suppose that the ship is not in port but at sea on Shabbat. Is he not in a vehicle and why is traveling on a ship on Shabbat any different that traveling on a car, bus, train or airplane?

 

DON

[vacation luvver]

2. I know that strictly orthodox Jews can not ride in a vehicle on Shabbat. Suppose that the ship is not in port but at sea on Shabbat. Is he not in a vehicle and why is traveling on a ship on Shabbat any different that traveling on a car, bus, train or airplane?

That's exactly what I was wondering! But it seems that according to the OP, this man decides on a case-by-case basis what he can do and what he can't do, and he decided that it's okay to ride in a ship on the Sabbath.

 

It was the following quote by the OP that made me think that the man decides what he can and can't do on a case-by-cases basis:

 

He is a Conservative Jew and doesn't follow a Kosher diet quite to the extent an Orthodox Jew would. He does avoid forbidden foods and the mixing of meat and dairy, but will eat at restaurants or at the home of non-jews who would not keep separate cooking and serving ware. (In those cases, he opts for vegetarian meals.)

Eating vegetarian meals at the homes of non-Jews and at non-kosher restaurants is not at all kosher. If the food was put into a non-kosher baking pan and baked in a non-kosher oven, the food is not kosher. He might as well be eating cheeseburgers! And if he is eating his meals on the plates and with the silverware supplied by the restaurant and his non-Jewish friends, then that is not kosher either.

 

Reform and Conservative Jews are permitted to eat non-kosher food when out of the house, so that it will be easier for them to make friends with non-Jews. If this man is eating vegetarian meals at the homes of non-Jewish friends and claiming that he is still keeping kosher, he's not fooling anyone.

 

Being a passenger on a seafaring vessel on Shabbat per se does not present a problem, provided that the ship is owned and maintained by non-Jews, and the majority of the passengers are not Jewish.

I wonder how he intends to find out how many fellow passengers will be Jewish. Is he going to call the cruiseline and ask "How many Jews are going to be on my cruise?" I don't think that would go over very well. But then, since he is choosing which rules to follow, I guess he won't care how many Jews will be on the ship.

[Ba' Datz]

Two points -

 

 

2. I know that strictly orthodox Jews can not ride in a vehicle on Shabbat. Suppose that the ship is not in port but at sea on Shabbat. Is he not in a vehicle and why is traveling on a ship on Shabbat any different that traveling on a car, bus, train or airplane?

 

DON

 

The difference between a ship and car is that the ship starts the journey before the Sabbath and it is a continuous trip over the Sabbath. A car or cruise that starts on the Sabbath would be prohibited.

Edited September 3, 2014 by badatz

[Ba' Datz]

Check out the Cruising Jewish board. All level of observance over there.

 

Unfortunately that board has very little to do about cruising and Judaisim as well. You will not find much information there

Edited September 3, 2014 by badatz

[Ba' Datz]

I wonder how he intends to find out how many fellow passengers will be Jewish. Is he going to call the cruiseline and ask "How many Jews are going to be on my cruise?" I don't think that would go over very well. But then, since he is choosing which rules to follow, I guess he won't care how many Jews will be on the ship.

 

I think that it is pretty much a given that most of the passengers are not Jewish even if you use the standard of what their percentage is in the general population.

 

There might be a problem on a cruise sponsered by groups such as Kosherica which can bring at times over a thousand people onboard. However they also bring along Rabbis to make sure that all is done according to Jewish law

[Cruisin' Chick]

I kind of breezed through the posts and didn't notice what ship/line you will be on. Some lines do kosher dinners quite well, some are abysmal! What line are you on? A few years ago we were on a Celebrity cruise and there was a large contingent who were part of "Kosherica" (I think that's what it was) They kashered a specific portion of the kitchen and the meals that came out were outstanding. Others that offer pre-packaged, frozen microwaved dinners on paper plates with plastic silverware are not too appetizing. As far as other restrictions, I'd just ask your rabbi.

 

My MIL of blessed memory once showed me an ad in one Jewish publication for the Kosherica cruises and was curious. I did a bit of research and told her that the rates were a lot higher because you were paying for the special activities and staff (rabbis, etc.) and entertainment.

 

She said that if she ever went on a cruise (sadly that didn't happen for her), she would just book a local one with a buddy (since her husband was a homebody in his last few years) and she would be happy just going with a vegetarian diet on board. The family was very traditional, with the lights on timers, etc. but they did allow for some modern conveniences (she would turn on and off the TV, would come in our car to go to a mall on Saturdays since that meant hanging out with us and her one grandchild).

 

There are so many variations even among the Orthodox and traditional Jews as to the extent they celebrate Shabbos. So I would agree with those above who feel the observant friend should sit down with his rabbi (maybe the rabbi would even welcome some of his friends to sit in on the meeting so they would understand any rules to follow...that would depend on the rabbi).

 

And sometimes even the very observant will make exceptions. We were told not to expect my hubby's aunt at our wedding because her father had passed away during the year. But she did fly out with her husband (just not on the sabbath) and was there.

 

Unfortunately that board has very little to do about cruising and Judaisim as well. You will not find much information there

 

I know we do a lot of chit chat over there (it's more like a cyber-shul in many ways) much to the distress of the member who had originally started the originally thread some years ago. He wanted the thread to be about different Jewish things to do in ports on a cruise, but life happens and we even had a marriage come out of this thread (the widower of one of our original members married another original member, who had lost her husband...this happened back on New Years 2010/11, and the officiant who married them was the wife of another long time member).

 

Every once in a while someone will post a question and hopefully get the info they need.

[BruceMuzz]

My ship was doing a Transatlantic voyage from Rome to Ft Lauderdale a few years ago.

In the middle of the Atlantic, a passenger who claimed to be a very devout and conservative member of the Jewish faith approached me.

He pointed out that we were scheduled to arrive in Ft Lauderdale on the Sabbath.

I confirmed that point for him.

 

He pointed out that his faith forbids him from conducting any business on the Sabbath.

No problem.............so far.....................

 

He then pointed out that going through US Immigration in Ft Lauderdale is considered conducting business.

He informed me that he and his wife would refuse - on religious grounds - to go through US Immigration in Ft Lauderdale. He further informed me that that if necessary, we could arrange to take him and his wife off the ship in handcuffs, kicking and screaming.

I advised him that my cruise line had nothing to do with US immigration rules and procedures, and informed him that we never take our guests off the ship in handcuffs.

 

But I did point out that in my experience, US Immigration Officials do not have much of a sense of humor in cases like this. I promised him that I would contact our Ft Lauderdale agent to see what could be done.

 

The agent spoke with Immigration, who as predicted, were not amused. They advised me to speak again with the passenger before we arrived at Ft Lauderdale.

 

Early on the morning of arrival, I visited the passengers in question, asking if they had any new information for me. They once again advised me that they would refuse to go through US Immigration. They repeated the handcuffs / kicking / screaming story.

I did ask them what might happen to me if I tried such a thing at Ben Gurion airport in Israel. They replied that I would be jailed immediately.

Fair answer.............................

 

On arrival at Ft Lauderdale, all the other passengers went through US Immigration. The officials asked me about our 2 Jewish guests.

I visited them once again in their cabin, asking them for any news.

They repeated that they would refuse to participate.

 

I reported their final story to the Immigration Officials - and received quite a surprise.

The officials informed me that since the passengers had a religious issue with Immigration, a special processing procedure would be used for them. They would be allowed to remain in their cabin, if I acted as a proxy by bringing their passports and other papers to the officials and completing the immigration procedures for them.

 

The fee for this special procedure would be US$600 per passenger.......................proving that US Immigration Officials do, indeed, have a sense of humor.

The Immigration Supervisor stated, "Let's see how Jewish they really are" - further proving his sense of humor.

 

I returned to the guests' cabin to give them the news.

They wanted to negotiate the $600 fee to a lower number.

I pointed out that negotiating fees would most likely violate their rule of conducting business on the Sabbath - and I already knew that the fees were not negotiable.

 

The couple asked for some privacy while they talked it over.

After 30 minutes, the husband came out of the cabin.

He said, "God is not worth $600. I will go through immigration now."

But his wife still refused.

I processed her immigration papers for her and we charged her credit card for the $600.

Edited September 3, 2014 by BruceMuzz

[CaveDiving]

...with regard to my understanding that no work or business can be conducted on the Shabbat.

So how does that apply as surely the purchase of a cruise vacation is a business transaction between the cruise line and the passenger. As part of that transaction it is agreed that the ship will provided facilities and service for the period of say 7 days, so surely a room attendant servicing a room, or an entertainer providing entertainment, or a waiter serving food is part of that transaction. Which would in turn take place on The Shabbat.?

 

Again please know that I am not trying to be smart or challenge anyone but simply trying to understand my fellow man or woman....

 

One of the things that make the rules of Judaism unclear is that they have been written in the Old Testament and not only do customs change but also so does the meaning of words.

 

For example, the Talmud might forbid the doing of “work” on the Sabbath but what is now the definition of “work”. Driving a team of horses was “work”, requiring concentration and skill, at some time in the past but is riding a horse “work” now? If I drive a taxi during the week than driving a car on Shabbos would probably be considered “work” by most people. But what if I was an artist who worked in the loft in my house every day and almost never had time to drive anywhere. Is driving a car to a synagogue on Shabbos, while talking about religion with my family, “working?” These are not questions that can be answered easily.

 

Each Jew must decide for him or her self what the meanings of the commandments (and there are many, many more then the famous ten) are. This is why you see so many variations. The rules are stated in the Old Testament but the interpretation of the rules is subject to personal choice. One may select to abide by the opinions of a given group of Rabbis i.e. Orthodox, or another group of Rabbis i.e. Conservative, or choose to decide for him or her self. IMHO, there is no right or wrong, only personal choice.

 

Scott & Karen

[happy trailer]

My ship was doing a Transatlantic voyage from Rome to Ft Lauderdale a few years ago.

In the middle of the Atlantic....

 

I guess I'm not surprised to see who posted this. I find the posting of this story, and your need to recant it, offensive- on any forum, but especially on this thread.

Edited September 4, 2014 by happy trailer

[Ba' Datz]

I guess I'm not surprised to see who posted this. I find the posting of this story, and your need to recant it, offensive- on any forum, but especially on this thread.

 

 

The whole story sounds phony and I do not even recognize the poster.

 

Who was the poster? The Captain? The ship's owner? Very doubtful

 

As to the cruiser, didn't he know that the ship would end the cruise on Shabbat?

 

Could he rely on finding a good samaritan to do his bidding?

 

 

And if he was dragged off the ship and forced into a police car and driven away, wouldn't that be more a violation of Shabbat than just going through immigration?

 

Seems like the poster just wanted to have a good laugh at the expense of observant people. Shame

Edited September 4, 2014 by badatz

[njhorseman]

I recommend that everyone offended by the post report it to the board moderators, as I have. You can do that by going to the offending post and clicking on the little red triangle that's next to the post number in the upper right hand corner . Tell the mods that the blatantly anti-Semitic tone of the post is totally inappropriate for publication on this forum.

Edited September 4, 2014 by njhorseman

[Roz]

What sounds fishy (gefilte?) to me is the proxy business. Part of the customs and immigration process is looking at the photo ID and comparing it to the live person in front of the agent.

 

Roz

Edited September 4, 2014 by Roz

[nfcu]

I recommend that everyone offended by the post report it to the board moderators, as I have. You can do that by going to the offending post and clicking on the little red triangle that's next to the post number in the upper right hand corner . Tell the mods that the blatantly anti-Semitic tone of the post is totally inappropriate for publication on this forum.

 

 

Why is this post anti-semitic if it is a true story? I suggest you do some research on these boards and you will find out who this poster is and his position in the cruise industry. You will find that "BruceMuzz" is a current cruise line Hotel Manager with years of experience and knowledge. I take him at his word.

[printingchick]

Thanks to all for the information - including the contact information (that was extremely sweet!).

 

My intent was to be more vague, but my traveling companion who is Jewish is my adult son, who converted to the faith. He is a conservative Jew. He is more observant than most conservative Jews, but not quite as strict as orthodox. We booked this cruise knowing the major travel restrictions, and he will certainly consult his rabbi concerning any other details about which we may be unaware. Yes, it's his responsibility to determine what those restrictions are, but I clearly want to be as supportive as I can be. The others in our group are not Jewish and we've found there is significant conflicting information available on-line. As in all religions, there are individual interpretations and levels of adherence. Information specific to traveling...even more specific, CRUISE travel...is not something everyone would know about. I figured a message board full of cruise experts would be a great resource! I appreciate the help!

 

Happy Cruising!

[vacation luvver]

I found BruceMuzz's story extremely funny and not at all anti-Semitic. I believe it's true, although I must admit that I wonder why the couple didn't realize before they booked the cruise that it would end on the Sabbath.

 

FWIW I am Jewish, but not Conservative or Orthodox, so I hope no one accuses me of being anti-Semitic.

 

One reason that I believe the story is true is an old "Ask the Ethicist" column from The New York Times that I read online. It had to do with an Orthodox Jewish couple on a Friday morning airline flight. The flight kept getting delayed and delayed and delayed again, and then it sat on the runway for about two hours, and then the couple said that they had to get off the plane, since they would wind up flying in the airplane after sundown, which meant during the Sabbath, and that would never do, so the pilot left the runway and brought them back to the airport. And then the flight got canceled entirely, because the crew would be in violation of working too many hours if the flight didn't get canceled. So nobody got to fly where they wanted to go. The Ethicist was asked if the airline had made the right decision to cancel the entire flight just because of two people, and the Ethicist said yes.

 

So it seems that some observant Jewish people have no problem deciding that they should be accommodated for their religious beliefs.

 

My intent was to be more vague, but my traveling companion who is Jewish is my adult son, who converted to the faith. He is a conservative Jew.

So that explains why you keep referring to him as an observant Jew! It's because you didn't know that "observant Jew" does not mean "a Jewish person who observes the rules." It's what Orthodox Jews call themselves. Because they think that the rest of us are non-observant. But they know that the rest of the world calls them "Orthodox," and that is why they will not contradict anyone who calls them "Orthodox." But an observant Jew is NOT a Conservative Jew! I was going to bring this up sooner, but I wasn't sure if it was relative to the discussion.

 

First of all, I hope that the mods don't consider BruceMuzz's post to be anti-Semitic, just because it is about entitled people who are determined to have their own way (until it hits them in their pocketbook).

 

Second of all, as long as the OP's son has no problem eating non-kosher meals in non-Jewish homes, I hope he will take advantage of the multitude of culinary offerings on the cruise. It seems silly to limit himself to vegetables or kosher meals when he has already made it a practice in his everyday life to eat non-kosher food.

[happy trailer]

Why is this post anti-semitic if it is a true story? I suggest you do some research on these boards and you will find out who this poster is and his position in the cruise industry. You will find that "BruceMuzz" is a current cruise line Hotel Manager with years of experience and knowledge. I take him at his word.

 

I am quite familiar with BruceMuzz and know that, especially in these past couple of years, his helpful posts have often been laced with posts which are obstinate and offensive, which is why I said I wasn't surprised that he was the poster.

 

There are clearly several of us reading this thread who are knowledgeable enough about Jewish law to recognize that the story is filled with holes and basic ridiculousness to make it very suspect- and make us suspect the motivation behind its posting.

 

njhorseman- I reported the post hours ago, when I posted my response. It's good to know I wasn't the only one who contacted the moderators about it; hopefully it will be removed soon.