Indoor mustering on the Konigsdam

[JennysUncle]

In his March 26 blog, Captain Albert says that patient mustering will be different on the Konigsdam - indoors. I assume this refers to the sail-away emergency drill muster.

 

"The Koningsdam has been built with the most recent technology which takes time to master but also we are different from the rest of the fleet as we have indoor mustering for the guests. This requires a total rethink of how to deal with traffic flows and the crew involved; with counting guests, guiding guests towards to right location and locating guests who do not show up or who have strayed into the wrong territory."

 

Presumably this is a consequence of the narrowness of the promenade. It will be nicer, though, in rainy weather.

[esimon]

We did an indoor muster on the Regent Seven Seas -- quite nice I admit

[ellieanne]

In his March 26 blog' date=' Captain Albert says that patient mustering will be different on the Konigsdam - indoors. I assume this refers to the sail-away emergency drill muster.

 

"The Koningsdam has been built with the most recent technology which takes time to master but also we are different from the rest of the fleet as we have indoor mustering for the guests. This requires a total rethink of how to deal with traffic flows and the crew involved; with counting guests, guiding guests towards to right location and locating guests who do not show up or who have strayed into the wrong territory."

 

Presumably this is a consequence of the narrowness of the promenade. It will be nicer, though, in rainy weather.[/quote']

 

I agree it will be nicer in rainy weather, but there is something about being on fall cruises out of Montreal or Quebec and it's snowing during lifeboat drill. But maybe that's me. :D

[SC_GAY_Cruiser]

In his March 26 blog' date=' Captain Albert says that patient mustering will be different on the Konigsdam - indoors. I assume this refers to the sail-away emergency drill muster.

 

I volunteer to be admitted as a patient on the K'dam! And it could be a very very long recovery!

[JennysUncle]

Freudian slip ?? Of course I meant to write 'passenger', and I even read the posting preview twice. But 'patient' as in 'able to accept or tolerate delays' is quite appropriate to the muster, in my experience.

[rafinmd]

There are 2 factors here. On the Konigsdam the narrowness of the promenade deck makes it difficult (I doubt if it's impossible).

 

On the R and S Class ships the deck with the lifeboats (can't remember if it's promenade or lower promenade) is ALL cabins with minimal public rooms. While a few people could muster in the Atrium most would need to do so on other decks, complicating evacuation if it is needed. Therefore, the logical place to muster on the R&S is the outer deck.

 

On the Vista/Signature ships there are both ample public rooms and outdoor space on the boat deck. Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth are virtually identical to the Vista/Signature ships but muster indoors. I have a hunch much of the different treatment between HAL/Cunard is consistency within the fleet as mustering is indoors on QM2 while HAL had a tradition of outdoor muster.

 

I suppose moving Konigsdam's muster indoors while it outdoors on the rest of the fleet confirms that there is insufficient space on the boat deck.

 

I wonder if when we have more Konigsdams and fewer R&S ships HAL will move towards consistency by moving the Vista/Signature muster indoors. Cunard's muster demonstrate that it can be done.

 

Roy

[LAFFNVEGAS]

 

 

I wonder if when we have more Konigsdams and fewer R&S ships HAL will move towards consistency by moving the Vista/Signature muster indoors. Cunard's muster demonstrate that it can be done.

 

Roy

 

We can only hope :) Captain Albert has spoke about the training involved in teaching the crew. My thoughts were they needed to send people over to NCL or Princess where they have been doing that way for years and it goes quite smoothly ;)

[Topsham]

We can only hope :) Captain Albert has spoke about the training involved in teaching the crew. My thoughts were they needed to send people over to NCL or Princess where they have been doing that way for years and it goes quite smoothly ;)

 

 

 

 

Princess yes, but definitely not NCL! They would be on 'foreign territory'!

 

Not such a big issue really. Princess and HAL are very much sister companies and all of the issues regarding 'inside' musters were all thought out at the design stage. Captain Schoonderbeek is very much the man to make this all happen. Before the ship is handed over to HAL the crew will be acquainted with full safety plans.

[KirkNC]

I read that. The one other thing I read I did not like was the absence of brass. He made it sound like an X ship, sterile and contemporary.

[Topsham]

 

I suppose moving Konigsdam's muster indoors while it outdoors on the rest of the fleet confirms that there is insufficient space on the boat deck.

 

I wonder if when we have more Konigsdams and fewer R&S ships HAL will move towards consistency by moving the Vista/Signature muster indoors. Cunard's muster demonstrate that it can be done.

 

Roy

 

 

The indoor muster was planned at the design stages with KODM. It is approved by SOLAS and is very much for design factors.

 

For ships such as other ships where musters are outside, they will stay as they are. No point in changing the system and these ships simply do not have the internal areas to change. Eg the S Class and R Class... the boat deck is on LOWER PROM DECK. If you wanted to use internal spaces you would have to use UPPER PROM DECK. Yes, you could put but then you would have to bring all passengers down TWO deck to the embarkation areas. So... they will stay where they are.

[mancunian]

Actually HAL is the only line we have been on with outside mustering. Celebrity, P&O, Saga, Orient, Oceania to name but a few.

 

We are very pleased about this as have never thought the outside mustering works well at all. For a start you can often not hear the cabin numbers being called, and the trouble is that the muster start is usually delayed waiting for people to arrive making it a long time to stand out on deck - difficult particularly for older people. I have often thought that by the time they do actually start a lot of people do not listen as they are getting uncomfortable.

 

In the case of a real emergency generally they want to get you to the public rooms in the first instance, and of course it works much better if assembly in public rooms is in your lifeboat muster stations.

 

Just our thoughts

[Despegue]

I very much prefer Indoor Assembly Stations.

 

One has to bear in mind that you should never have an assigned lifeboat, only an assigned assembly station ( with an alternative station designated and known to the assembly crew in case of unavailability of the station, eg. Fire).

 

Depending in the Actual emergency, lifeboats and rafts will be allocated. Either Standard, in case of no restrictions on the evacuation or alternative in case of restrictions. Eg. Fire on one side of the vessel, a list of the vessel over the allowed degrees for lifeboat launch, weather, technical issues,...

 

Indoor Mustering will also protect the passengers ( hate the word Guests!) of the elements ( keep yourself warm as long as possible, heat is life in a survival situation) Stations are more centrally located thus easier to direct pax. to the allocated evacuation means, and orders are easier to give and listen to due to the audio system and lesss noise inside.

 

There are more advantages, but these few already sum up why Indoor Mustering is a good idea...

[Topsham]

Actually HAL is the only line we have been on with outside mustering. Celebrity, P&O, Saga, Orient, Oceania to name but a few.

 

Just our thoughts

 

 

Saga? I have sailed in ROSE, RUBY, PEARL and SAPPHIRE.... all Muster on Deck.

 

Only time I have had a muster on the ROSE or RUBY was when a very small group of passengers have joined the ship late after the muster or joined in mid cruise. Come to Cinema for a briefing by the Safety Officer and then escorted up to the lifeboats to see what happens there.

 

Now if there is a departure and it is raining I'm sure the muster could be done inside but the normal is out on deck.

[1of4]

Disney's muster drill is outdoors but they scan the key cards so it is so much quicker. I disliked the muster on Princess (although it was over 10 years ago now and hope they have improved) with everyone meeting in a lounge then traipsing 2 decks down on crew stairs with life jackets, straps dragging on the stairs, to get to the actual assigned station.

[Topsham]

I very much prefer Indoor Assembly Stations.

 

One has to bear in mind that you should never have an assigned lifeboat, only an assigned assembly station ( with an alternative station designated and known to the assembly crew in case of unavailability of the station, eg. Fire).

 

Depending in the Actual emergency, lifeboats and rafts will be allocated. Either Standard, in case of no restrictions on the evacuation or alternative in case of restrictions. Eg. Fire on one side of the vessel, a list of the vessel over the allowed degrees for lifeboat launch, weather, technical issues,...

 

Indoor Mustering will also protect the passengers ( hate the word Guests!) of the elements ( keep yourself warm as long as possible, heat is life in a survival situation) Stations are more centrally located thus easier to direct pax. to the allocated evacuation means, and orders are easier to give and listen to due to the audio system and lesss noise inside.

 

There are more advantages, but these few already sum up why Indoor Mustering is a good idea...

 

 

Believe me, if you make up a list of DISADVANTAGES you would never want to be trapped inside in a real emergency. The muster inside is a great idea for passengers comfort and easy when sitting at a pier waiting to depart on a cruise. Fine if there is a very 'simple' emergency and plenty of time, yes, it sounds fine. In a serious situation, you would never have the time to muster inside and you want to get to the boats as quickly as possible. New ships have to do have their musters quite simply because they are not designed to use space out on deck for outside muster. That is not an advantage, it is a disadvantage! The old S Class... take example. Serious emergency... go straight to the boat and go. If the emergency is not so serious, the passengers can go up to Upper Prom Deck and wait in lounges. They have TWO choices. New ships do NOT have choices. It is inside or nothing. Simply no place to put the people outside.

 

 

Example.... your comment "( keep yourself warm as long as possible, heat is life in a survival situation)". Sounds fine. Does it? What happens if you happen to be in the middle of the Caribbean and your ship is in trouble. You go to the lounges and wait... might be hours. Hmmmm... 90 degree temperatures outide and NO power... NO Airconditioning and NO Air! What then? Put 3,000 people inside and your ship will be like an oven.

 

Weigh it up. The safety people at SOLAS, designers etc have come up with this new idea. The SHIP is your LIFEBOAT. All very well done but it can go pear shaped up real quick. You have only to look at the COSTA CONCORDIA. Had passengers gone straight to their boat musters every person would have been quickly saved.

 

"The IMO Life Saving Appliances (LSA) Code 4.4.3.1 states: “Every passenger ship lifeboat shall be so arranged that it can be boarded by its full complement of persons in not more than 10 minutes from the time the instruction to board is given.” In a real emergency situation on a cruise ship lifeboat many people believe that embarkation would take longer than the design ideal of 10 minutes. A typical cruise contains a fair portion of passengers with impaired mobility and families with young children"

 

 

In a real emergency the time to get passengers into muster points has been shown to take 40 to 60 minutes. Now it takes 10 minutes to board the boats. Well, how long does it take to say... 40 minutes to get to the muster points... another 40 minutes to get out to the boats and then board the boats and get away? One hour? Two hours? If you had passengers out on deck and musters and then at their boats they would halve the time to get away.

 

Yes, plenty of advantages for a muster drill before a cruise. In a real emergency... well a lot of disadvantages.

[Despegue]

Sorry Topsham,

 

Bet we seem to disagree here. This is however not the place to discuss our professional opinions. Of course, there are also negative aspects to any procedure I agree with that.

 

However, your comment regarding the evacuation of Costa Concordia is not correct. There was more than sufficient time, as in 99% of evacuations at sea to muster and then distribute IF the crew would have acted as they should and announce an abandon ship earlier.

Also, let us not forget that all in all, the crew ( not withstanding the errors on the Bridge) did do a good job in general evacuating the passengers, bearing in mind the situation thay were in, and the fact that chaos is guaranteed to happen in mass evacuation and under-panic crowd control.

 

Best regards,

 

Despegue.

[chengkp75]

Both Topsham and Despegue have valid points with regards to indoor/outdoor muster locations.

 

I will also comment that the Concordia cannot be used as anything near a "normal" emergency situation.

 

The signal to muster was not given until nearly one hour after the ship struck the rock, and Schettino (I refuse to give him a title) knew that three or more compartments were flooding (which he even commented on in a audio recording from the bridge as being fatal to the ship). Had the signal been given in a timely fashion, the passengers would have been properly mustered, and ready to board the boats.

 

Secondly, shortly after signalling the passenger muster (which was not accomplished by the required signal, but by announcement), the bridge announced "abandon ship", which gave the crew the signal to leave the ship as well, whereas in a "normal" emergency, the crew are held at their emergency stations until after the passengers have evacuated so that there is no overcrowding of the muster locations because the boat and raft stations are the same.

[jtl513]

Disney's muster drill is outdoors but they scan the key cards so it is so much quicker.

On the Disney Dream in Nov '13 our muster station was in the main showroom, with (IIRC) five other groups. Each group leader had his/her own bullhorn, and with all of them talking at the same time to their own group it was a total joke. It did not give me any confidence that things would go well in an emergency. IIRC there were some boats that mustered outdoors, but I believe most were indoors.

[Topsham]

Sorry Topsham,

 

Bet we seem to disagree here. This is however not the place to discuss our professional opinions. Of course, there are also negative aspects to any procedure I agree with that.

 

However, your comment regarding the evacuation of Costa Concordia is not correct. There was more than sufficient time, as in 99% of evacuations at sea to muster and then distribute IF the crew would have acted as they should and announce an abandon ship earlier.

Also, let us not forget that all in all, the crew ( not withstanding the errors on the Bridge) did do a good job in general evacuating the passengers, bearing in mind the situation thay were in, and the fact that chaos is guaranteed to happen in mass evacuation and under-panic crowd control.

 

Best regards,

 

Despegue.

 

 

 

Perhaps CONCORDIA is not the best example. The thing is that disaster COULD easily have been worse. Had one more compartment lost in the same way then she would have gone to bottom in less than an hour. These things can and will get happen again. Probability is not a certain and I don't want to a part of that! My own fear is for a major collision and that happens all too often. Just a matter of time. Other fear is major fire. Firefighting is without best ever offered for ships, but there is no guarantee either.

 

I don't have a problem with musters inside. My real problem is that we have lost the space out on deck to handle people that cannot get out of those interior spaces. If a ship is built big and ugly enough to float then please give the ship benefit and give a bit more space for safety.

[Despegue]

Topsham, you are 100% correct on that.

 

Just a quick general note for all, to avoid any confusion and future issues: in no way are any of us claiming that ms. Koningsdam is unsafe. We were just discussing different opinions regarding evacuation strategies and ship design. Ms. Koningsdam meets and surpasses the newest SOLAS requirements, HAL has Safety as a Priority and HAL crew is amongst the best trained at sea.:)

 

Thanks Topsham for the open discussion, and your experience onboard Ship is greater than mine. I will admire your works onboard Oosterdam and Koningsdam soon ;)

[3rdGenCunarder]

Perhaps CONCORDIA is not the best example. The thing is that disaster COULD easily have been worse. Had one more compartment lost in the same way then she would have gone to bottom in less than an hour. These things can and will get happen again. Probability is not a certain and I don't want to a part of that! My own fear is for a major collision and that happens all too often. Just a matter of time. Other fear is major fire. Firefighting is without best ever offered for ships, but there is no guarantee either.

 

I don't have a problem with musters inside. My real problem is that we have lost the space out on deck to handle people that cannot get out of those interior spaces. If a ship is built big and ugly enough to float then please give the ship benefit and give a bit more space for safety.

 

(bold is mine)

I agree! I like the indoor muster, as long as there's an easy route from the indoor space to the deck. Even on the older HAL ships with the wider promenade, space is tight on deck. On our HAL cruises on S and Vista ships, I've noticed how crowded it is during muster drill. And we don't have the added bulk of the life vests. I worry that there isn't enough room on deck for crew to move around and prepare the boats for loading when we're all standing there.

Edited March 28, 2016 by 3rdGenCunarder

[chengkp75]

Topsham, you are 100% correct on that.

 

Just a quick general note for all, to avoid any confusion and future issues: in no way are any of us claiming that ms. Koningsdam is unsafe. We were just discussing different opinions regarding evacuation strategies and ship design. Ms. Koningsdam meets and surpasses the newest SOLAS requirements, HAL has Safety as a Priority and HAL crew is amongst the best trained at sea.:)

 

Thanks Topsham for the open discussion, and your experience onboard Ship is greater than mine. I will admire your works onboard Oosterdam and Koningsdam soon ;)

 

 

Well said. It really comes down to the fact that passengers think the muster locations are brought inside for their comfort, when it is merely to increase the revenue generating space inside the ship. The designers of Koningsdam have studied evacuation procedures and crowd control paradigms far more than any of us discussing this here on CC.. We are, as Despegue says, just voicing personal opinions on a professional level. All of us are correct, and all of us have valid points. No one viewpoint is 100% correct (unless you are the Almighty).

Edited March 28, 2016 by chengkp75

[Dave in NJ]

Just my personal point of view as a passenger, but the closer the drill comes to the real thing (meaning at your lifeboat) the more effective the drill can (didn't say will) be. I clearly remember drills in the years immediately following the sinking of the first Prinsendam that they often actually lowered a lifeboat or two to the rail so folks could even better appreciate what would happen were an evacuation required. I understand why it's no longer done but it was very effective in preparing you for the event should it happen.

[chengkp75]

Just my personal point of view as a passenger, but the closer the drill comes to the real thing (meaning at your lifeboat) the more effective the drill can (didn't say will) be. I clearly remember drills in the years immediately following the sinking of the first Prinsendam that they often actually lowered a lifeboat or two to the rail so folks could even better appreciate what would happen were an evacuation required. I understand why it's no longer done but it was very effective in preparing you for the event should it happen.

 

But again, the muster drill is not about the boats. It is about gathering and accounting for the passengers in whatever emergency situation is at hand. The passengers could be mustered for an emergency when the Captain has no intention of putting the passengers in the boat, or it may be that that decision is hours down the line.

 

While I would never countenance lowering a boat during a drill, for safety reasons, at NCL we would always have one lowered to the rail prior to the drill, so that after the drill, those interested could see the boats close up and ask questions of the officers stationed there.

[Topsham]

Thanks Topsham for the open discussion, and your experience onboard Ship is greater than mine. I will admire your works onboard Oosterdam and Koningsdam soon ;)

 

Oh sh*t! I forgot to put lifeboats into the painting of the K. Sorry. For all Neptune passengers... I will put a few on for you.

 

Heading out for lunch then a few comments. As ChEng says... these ships are 100% safe and I would not sail if that were not the case.

 

Stephen