"This might be YOUR vacation, but it's MY life"

[The_Big_M]

That would make sense. Doesn't eBay work that way?

 

Was good when it did, but it doesn't anymore.

[bUU]

Not sure why you are fixed on German law

It is the taxation service that has the best online documentation search capability. Indonesia, by comparison, does not have their tax code online, at all, afaik.

 

The other problem I see with your argument that this would be tax free in Germany, is that the money must be paid to the employee by the third party, which the DSC is not, it is paid to the cruise line, which then pays it to the employee.

You are mistaken. Cruise ship gratuities qualify under that provision of German tax law, and under similar provisions of tax laws of many other nations. It is like gratuities placed on a credit card as a land-based restaurant, and it is such because it complies with those specific provisions.

[grapau27]

It is the taxation service that has the best online documentation search capability. Indonesia, by comparison, does not have their tax code online, at all, afaik.

 

You are mistaken. Cruise ship gratuities qualify under that provision of German tax law, and under similar provisions of tax laws of many other nations. It is like gratuities placed on a credit card as a land-based restaurant, and it is such because it complies with those specific provisions.

TBH wherever you live in the world you should pay your taxes to the relevant government.

[bUU]

TBH wherever you live in the world you should pay your taxes to the relevant government.

And that is a very fair perspective to hold to, and applies to part of an earlier comment, but doesn't apply to the specific comment you were referring to. Laws such as the one I cited actually exempt discretionary gratuities from taxation. The key is that the amount given is wholly without legal obligation. So a defined bonus plan, which constitutes part of one's employment contract, where an employer sets defined targets for profitability, for example, and agrees to share a certain percentage above that target with employees as a bonuses would not quality, but a plan where the company promises no amount of money and the extra compensation is based on the discretion of third parties would qualify.

[chengkp75]

And that is a very fair perspective to hold to, and applies to part of an earlier comment, but doesn't apply to the specific comment you were referring to. Laws such as the one I cited actually exempt discretionary gratuities from taxation. The key is that the amount given is wholly without legal obligation. So a defined bonus plan, which constitutes part of one's employment contract, where an employer sets defined targets for profitability, for example, and agrees to share a certain percentage above that target with employees as a bonuses would not quality, but a plan where the company promises no amount of money and the extra compensation is based on the discretion of third parties would qualify.

 

Ah, here's where your argument fails, because it is clearly spelled out in the crew's contract that their compensation is partly wage and partly based on DSC, and further the company is required to make up the balance, if the reduction in DSC results in a crewmember falling below the mandated minimum wage.

[grapau27]

Ah, here's where your argument fails, because it is clearly spelled out in the crew's contract that their compensation is partly wage and partly based on DSC, and further the company is required to make up the balance, if the reduction in DSC results in a crewmember falling below the mandated minimum wage.

Very interesting point.

[Aquahound]

If you are expecting a completely honest answer from a tipped employee to the person tipping them, I've got a bridge in NYC to sell you.

 

That's my favorite line on this whole thread so far. :D

[bUU]

Ah, here's where your argument fails, because it is clearly spelled out in the crew's contract that their compensation is partly wage and partly based on DSC, and further the company is required to make up the balance, if the reduction in DSC results in a crewmember falling below the mandated minimum wage.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe even in Germany that would not be an issue; to avoid getting tagged by authorities, even a marginally competent tax lawyer can craft the agreement such that the tax law would only apply when the company must kick in some money to fulfill the guarantee, if any. Having worked with a bevvy of corporate lawyers, I think you're grossly underestimating their skills.

[chengkp75]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe even in Germany that would not be an issue; to avoid getting tagged by authorities, even a marginally competent tax lawyer can craft the agreement such that the tax law would only apply when the company must kick in some money to fulfill the guarantee, if any. Having worked with a bevvy of corporate lawyers, I think you're grossly underestimating their skills.

 

And my final note on the issue is that a seaman's employment contract is based on the laws of the flag state, not the laws of the crewmember's home country, so long as it adheres to the mandates of the MLC.

[grapau27]

And my final note on the issue is that a seaman's employment contract is based on the laws of the flag state, not the laws of the crewmember's home country, so long as it adheres to the mandates of the MLC.

As you are a seaman and have been for many years my vote goes to you on who is correct.

[bUU]

And my final note on the issue is that a seaman's employment contract is based on the laws of the flag state, not the laws of the crewmember's home country, so long as it adheres to the mandates of the MLC.

That affects only the contract provisions - it does not affect what laws the crew members is subject to. The crew members' home country can impose its laws on its citizens wherever they may be. The law is far more complex (and creative) than straightforward matters.

[davekathy]

Survey says...:rolleyes:

[bUU]

Survey says...:rolleyes:

The law isn't a matter of what the most number of posters in a thread want.

[davekathy]

The law isn't a matter of what the most number of posters in a thread want.

 

 

Survey says...

[Velvetwater]

I can't help but giggle at the fact that German tax and law is mentioned when they are reportedly the best tippers in Europe and they give good base wages as well.

 

The 'we pay people like this so they can avoid tax/charges back home' is a convenient excuse for them to pay less. Especially when you consider the wide variety of nationalities who are crew...a good chunk of which have tax laws similar to the rest of Europe (Ie not too bas and taxes are taxes anyway).

[grapau27]

I can't help but giggle at the fact that German tax and law is mentioned when they are reportedly the best tippers in Europe and they give good base wages as well.

 

The 'we pay people like this so they can avoid tax/charges back home' is a convenient excuse for them to pay less. Especially when you consider the wide variety of nationalities who are crew...a good chunk of which have tax laws similar to the rest of Europe (Ie not too bas and taxes are taxes anyway).

Exactly.

[bUU]

I can't help but giggle at the fact that German tax and law is mentioned when they are reportedly the best tippers in Europe and they give good base wages as well.

How about instead of working so hard to blind yourself to the evidence that tax laws very well can drive the separation of the gratuities from the base fare you actually open your mind enough to accept that it is possible? I guarantee you it is a lot less work that trying to defend a pointlessly nonsensical implications of wrongdoing by every cruise line in the industry.

[grapau27]

How about instead of working so hard to blind yourself to the evidence that tax laws very well can drive the separation of the gratuities from the base fare you actually open your mind enough to accept that it is possible? I guarantee you it is a lot less work that trying to defend a pointlessly nonsensical implications of wrongdoing by every cruise line in the industry.

Good sensible post,i think they are very intelligent but go over the top a little.

[Velvetwater]

How about instead of working so hard to blind yourself to the evidence that tax laws very well can drive the separation of the gratuities from the base fare you actually open your mind enough to accept that it is possible? I guarantee you it is a lot less work that trying to defend a pointlessly nonsensical implications of wrongdoing by every cruise line in the industry.

 

The evidence as to why cruise lines do what they do is obvious without deep research/blinding...it isthe matter of more coin.

 

(and thats before we have even got into ship registry , cruise companies paying relatively little tax, Western crew members earning more, seafarer tax exemption in some countries and the tradition of the american service model because that has been done to death)

 

Eh it sucks....but this type of thing is in our daily lives with big companies even if we are not on a cruise.

 

 

Just have to try and enjoy everything I guess.

[LMaxwell]

I don't see why front line staff should have it better than the people who support them and make it possible for them to do their job well.

 

They shouldn't have it better. But back of house staff should be compensated differently than front of house because front of house interacts with the guests and back of house provides the supplies for front of house. They do not interact with guests. It is not fair to have back of house rely on a "gratuity" to make up a portion of their pay when, the reality is, they aren't providing services to a guest directly, nor is it fair for front of house staff who do interact with guests be made to divvy their pot further with back of house, unless there was an agreement or arrangement made between the two parties, and not as a company rule.

 

It's not common elsewhere for dishwashing staff and laundry staff to rely on a gratuity wage. Everyone should be compensated fairly for their labor efforts.

[the mistral wind]

Maybe we should interrupt them on the first night and say they currently have all 5's, please try and keep it that way. ;)

 

I like that one

[bUU]

It takes a team effort to provide excellent customer service. The line including those for whom the gratuity is an appropriate form of compensation goes back a little further than you're admitting.

 

 

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[Aquahound]

Why don't they just give everyone officer's pay? It's called pecking order and it also called life. In the military, we called it "choose your rate, choose your fate."

 

Besides, it's none of our business who gets paid what. Last I checked, we are not signatories on their contracts.

[bUU]

The description of the service we're purchasing when we purchase a cruise makes clear that we passengers are indeed responsible for a portion of the compensation for service provided to us. We have discretion over the amount for that portion.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[LMaxwell]

It takes a team effort to provide excellent customer service. The line including those for whom the gratuity is an appropriate form of compensation goes back a little further than you're admitting.

 

 

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

When I go to a restaurant I tip the waiter. If the waiter tips out the dishwasher, that is between them. I don't tip the dishwasher. I am tipping the person who provided me face to face service. The owner of the establishment pays a higher hourly wage to the dishwasher than they pay to the wait staff.

 

 

It takes a team at my job to provide an end result for the client. However, in my role, part of my compensation is performance based and is variable. When the results I achieve are greater, so is my compensation. I interact with, educate, and negotiate front line with clients. No two days are the same.

 

Some that I rely on back at "home base" fulfill a clients order, but they don't interact with the clients and they are paid a different wage scale. Their job never really changes, they are performing trained tasks in repetition. They are not part of the sales incentives, because they do not deal with the clients or sell them anything. Yet they are still part of achieving the final result and of course I recognize that.

 

Everyone should be compensated fairly. That is not the same thing as saying everyone should be paid the same.

 

I understand on a cruise ship things are a little different and the "tipping" or "service charges" reach further down the line that we would otherwise find customary. But, like I said, it is unfair to have someone who never faces a guest rely on a gratuity, and it is unfair to force those who serve customers to share a gratuity with back of house staff; any deal they make amongst themselves is fine though.