Nieuw Amsterdam Group Booking - HUGE - Eliminates fixed dining and cuts open seating

[nanlaur]

So, in a manner of speaking, you ordered and paid for an entre but were served leftovers instead.

 

I guess some people would be OK with that or would excuse it. We would not.

Exactly! And I am not OK with it at all. The more time passes, the more difficult it is to remember the good parts of those two weeks, and the more the dining debacle colors my impression of the whole cruise [emoji22]

[TiogaCruiser]

HAL made the choice...I don't know why they made it but they did. Ultimately some passengers were going to be negatively affected.

 

Maybe the correct thing to do is to not guarantee that groups that large will be able to dine together exclusively, unless they charter the ship...especially if it means closing off the MDR to everyone else.

 

From what I understand this group doesn't want to dine with other passengers who may be drinking alcohol, which is why they closed the dining room to others.

 

So HAL accommodated their request to dine alone.

 

What I'd like to know is what happened at lunch when they were eating with other people on the Lido, or sitting by the pool with others who were drinking alcohol?

... :)

 

I think you hit the nail on the head with the bold part about dining together. I'm not sure where you are getting the part about a promise of exclusive dining, although that is what apparently had happened to allow the group to dine together. There is only so much capacity for through put in a galley, and the group hit it by size. Group members would have had to miss their meeting in the showroom if they dined earlier.

 

I see no place where the OP said the group didn't want to be around others who were drinking alcohol. The OP only said they were not drinkers and the bars were not getting much business.

 

Totally agree with your solution that HAL not allow groups to exceed a reasonable capacity, so as to allow regular pax to have reasonable access to dining and facilities. Or they have to do a full charter.

 

I would have been upset too if I was restricted to a 45 minute window in the MDR.

[iancal]

Some cruise line apologists, HAL and others, will dismiss and explain away anything in an attempt to portray their 'chosen' cruise one in the best possible light.

 

In many instances they might not even have been on that particular sailing, in that area of cabins, and not inconvenienced.

 

Cruise lines are 'for profit' businesses. Their first loyalty is to their shareholders. No different from any other business we deal with. They attempt to engender loyalty and emotional attachment solely as a means of incrementing revenue and profit.

 

We have never understood why some cruisers treat them so gingerly....like that distant , gregarious uncle who has a tendency to drink a little too much.

[OlsSalt]

Some cruise line apologists, HAL and others, will dismiss and explain away anything in an attempt to portray their 'chosen' cruise one in the best possible light.

 

In many instances they might not even have been on that particular sailing, in that area of cabins, and not inconvenienced.

 

Cruise lines are 'for profit' businesses. Their first loyalty is to their shareholders. No different from any other business we deal with. They attempt to engender loyalty and emotional attachment solely as a means of incrementing revenue and profit.

 

We have never understood why some cruisers treat them so gingerly....like that distant , gregarious uncle who has a tendency to drink a little too much.

 

That is not the way I am reading this thread at all. Most HAL "loyalists", including myself, are appalled about what happened on this NA large group impacted cruise. There appears to be only one voice on this thread consistently defending HAL in this case and telling the other HAL passengers to take this sort of unexpected material mid-cruise disruption in stride.

 

For profit-businesses are subject to market forces: willing buyer meets willing seller. Selling prior cruise expectations that are snatched away with no notice or warning mid-cruise, in preference for a bulk group of other passengers, does not make for "willing" future buyers.

[styles27]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the bold part about dining together. I'm not sure where you are getting the part about a promise of exclusive dining, although that is what apparently had happened to allow the group to dine together. There is only so much capacity for through put in a galley, and the group hit it by size. Group members would have had to miss their meeting in the showroom if they dined earlier.

 

I see no place where the OP said the group didn't want to be around others who were drinking alcohol. The OP only said they were not drinkers and the bars were not getting much business.

 

Totally agree with your solution that HAL not allow groups to exceed a reasonable capacity, so as to allow regular pax to have reasonable access to dining and facilities. Or they have to do a full charter.

 

I would have been upset too if I was restricted to a 45 minute window in the MDR.

 

Hi, just to clarify...the OP didn't say anything about the group not wanting to be around people consuming alcohol.

 

Check out post #11 on page 1 of this thread...that's where I saw that information.

 

I'm not sure how to include quotes from multiple posts into this one, I'm sorry.

[bUU]

For profit-businesses are subject to market forces: willing buyer meets willing seller. Selling prior cruise expectations that are snatched away with no notice or warning mid-cruise, in preference for a bulk group of other passengers, does not make for "willing" future buyers.

You raise some interesting thoughts but is it anything more than speculation? What is the proof that a decrease in the size of willing buyers is what's happening? What evidence proves that the cruise line doing the things you complain about actually results in such a decrease? How can we legitimately discern sincere and pervasive changing of the market attractiveness of the cruises offered?

 

There is no doubt that there is upset. How much upset, though, is the creation of upset, itself? How much reliance on what you call "prior cruise expectations" is constructive? In helping passengers to make the most of the cruises we purchase, how much of that includes helping develop and foster expectations than can be reliably expected to be fulfilled, because they are reflections of explicit promises and contractual commitments, instead of just passenger wishes? How much benefit versus detriment is there in prompting the holding of expectations of things not promised, things known to vary, absent the factoring in of how often and how much those things vary?

 

What underlies what seems to me to be vigorous effort a drown out different perspectives? Can we benefit from seeing some things in different ways rather than just a single view?

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[OlsSalt]

You raise some interesting thoughts but is it anything more than speculation? What is the proof that a decrease in the size of willing buyers is what's happening? What evidence proves that the cruise line doing the things you complain about actually results in such a decrease? How can we legitimately discern sincere and pervasive changing of the market attractiveness of the cruises offered?

 

There is no doubt that there is upset. How much upset, though, is the creation of upset, itself? How much reliance on what you call "prior cruise expectations" is constructive? In helping passengers to make the most of the cruises we purchase, how much of that includes helping develop and foster expectations than can be reliably expected to be fulfilled, because they are reflections of explicit promises and contractual commitments, instead of just passenger wishes? How much benefit versus detriment is there in prompting the holding of expectations of things not promised, things known to vary, absent the factoring in of how often and how much those things vary?

 

What underlies what seems to me to be vigorous effort a drown out different perspectives? Can we benefit from seeing some things in different ways rather than just a single view?

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

 

Best way for HAL to get data, and not just anecdote, is to disclose up front to all regular non-group passengers before they sign up for these large group-impacted cruises..

 

HAL needs to tell them they will not get the marketed full cruise experience on that particular cruise, and they will be de-prioritized without notice at any given time that they must accommodate the preferences of that larger group.

 

With this fact disclosed to regular passsengers up front, data analysis can determine if this increases or decreases regular passenger sales who know they will now be getting less value, for the same price of another non-large group cruise.

[bUU]

Best way for HAL to get data, and not just anecdote, is to disclose up front to all regular non-group passengers before they sign up for these large group-impacted cruises..

I think that's just wishful thinking.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Best way for HAL to get data, and not just anecdote, is to disclose up front to all regular non-group passengers before they sign up for these large group-impacted cruises..

 

HAL needs to tell them they will not get the marketed full cruise experience on that particular cruise, and they will be de-prioritized without notice at any given time that they must accommodate the preferences of that larger group.

 

With this fact disclosed to regular passsengers up front, data analysis can determine if this increases or decreases regular passenger sales who know they will now be getting less value, for the same price of another non-large group cruise.

 

(bold is mine) I think most of us would agree that an overwhelmingly large group would discourage bookings by nonmembers. HAL has to know this, which is why they avoid letting this kind of info get out. And sadly, I don't think it's going to change. Thank goodness for the group/charter thread!

[RocketMan275]

Best way for HAL to get data, and not just anecdote, is to disclose up front to all regular non-group passengers before they sign up for these large group-impacted cruises..

 

HAL needs to tell them they will not get the marketed full cruise experience on that particular cruise, and they will be de-prioritized without notice at any given time that they must accommodate the preferences of that larger group.

 

With this fact disclosed to regular passsengers up front, data analysis can determine if this increases or decreases regular passenger sales who know they will now be getting less value, for the same price of another non-large group cruise.

 

The chance of HAL making those disclosures is significantly less than your chance of a complimentary upgrade from an inside to the Pinnacle Suite.

[kazu]

The chance of HAL making those disclosures is significantly less than your chance of a complimentary upgrade from an inside to the Pinnacle Suite.

LOL :D:p:D

 

right on :hearteyes:

[iancal]

Absolutely...mums the word!

 

If HAL or any cruise line advised us in advance that there were 700 plus people on an Inspirational Group cruise (or any other large group) it would immediately inspire us to cancel the cruise in favour of another ship/itinerary. Lots of choice out there so why take a chance.

[styles27]

Absolutely...mums the word!

 

If HAL or any cruise line advised us in advance that there were 700 plus people on an Inspirational Group cruise (or any other large group) it would immediately inspire us to cancel the cruise in favour of another ship/itinerary. Lots of choice out there so why take a chance.

 

Completely agree.

 

I'm very thankful for the CC thread about large groups/charters. I would not hesitate to cancel our upcoming cruise if this group, or any large group were scheduled to be on it.

 

As you said, there are lots of options out there nowadays

[summersigh]

You raise some interesting thoughts but is it anything more than speculation? What is the proof that a decrease in the size of willing buyers is what's happening? What evidence proves that the cruise line doing the things you complain about actually results in such a decrease? How can we legitimately discern sincere and pervasive changing of the market attractiveness of the cruises offered?

 

There is no doubt that there is upset. How much upset, though, is the creation of upset, itself? How much reliance on what you call "prior cruise expectations" is constructive? In helping passengers to make the most of the cruises we purchase, how much of that includes helping develop and foster expectations than can be reliably expected to be fulfilled, because they are reflections of explicit promises and contractual commitments, instead of just passenger wishes? How much benefit versus detriment is there in prompting the holding of expectations of things not promised, things known to vary, absent the factoring in of how often and how much those things vary?

 

What underlies what seems to me to be vigorous effort a drown out different perspectives? Can we benefit from seeing some things in different ways rather than just a single view?.

The bottom line on this thread is that for those not in "the group" - the window for dining in the MDR YTD was reduced to 45 minutes. For people like us that's too early to dine and buffets are not a dinner option for DH (who swore when he left the Army he'd never do another buffet). I believe we are entitled to have "prior cruise expectations" that we will be able to sit at a table in the MDR at what, for us, is a reasonable hour and be waited on by the staff and that we don't have to be wandering around a buffet looking components of a dinner.

 

Feeling that a particular cruise line doesn't really care about the regular/non-group cruisers or about anything but the bottom line at the cost of all else makes it easier to choose a booking on another line. We did for this coming December.

 

HAL relies heavily on repeat business. On our December Zuiderdam cruise there were 1400 Mariners out of 1900 passengers. Fostering loyalty should be an issue.

Edited March 13, 2017 by summersigh

[bUU]

I believe we are entitled to have "prior cruise expectations"

I wish you the best of luck with that, sincerely. I just don't think there is a good reason to believe in such an entitlement or rely on it.

 

that we will be able to sit at a table in the MDR at what, for us, is a reasonable hour

2000 passengers. 1200 seats. <shrug>

[iancal]

Would you go out for dinner on shore to a restaurant that took it's last booking prior to 6PM

 

How long do you think a dinner restaurant that took it's last booking prior to 6 PM would remain in business?

[bUU]

How long do you think a dinner restaurant that took it's last booking at 6PM would remain in business?

That's non-sequitur. The analogous question would be "How long do you think a dinner restaurant would remain in business if its later seating was booked up?" The answer would be, "Quite long."

[RocketMan275]

The bottom line on this thread is that for those not in "the group" - the window for dining in the MDR YTD was reduced to 45 minutes. For people like us that's too early to dine and buffets are not a dinner option for DH (who swore when he left the Army he'd never do another buffet). I believe we are entitled to have "prior cruise expectations" that we will be able to sit at a table in the MDR at what, for us, is a reasonable hour and be waited on by the staff and that we don't have to be wandering around a buffet looking components of a dinner.

 

Feeling that a particular cruise line doesn't really care about the regular/non-group cruisers or about anything but the bottom line at the cost of all else makes it easier to choose a booking on another line. We did for this coming December.

 

HAL relies heavily on repeat business. On our December Zuiderdam cruise there were 1400 Mariners out of 1900 passengers. Fostering loyalty should be an issue.

 

Can you show me where "prior cruise expectations" are covered in the cruise contract?

 

BTW, you can find similar instances where priority has been given to large groups on every mainstream cruise line.

[OlsSalt]

Can you show me where "prior cruise expectations" are covered in the cruise contract?

 

BTW, you can find similar instances where priority has been given to large groups on every mainstream cruise line.

 

Technically, "as you wish dining" may not be in the cruise contract, but it is heavily featured in the HAL marketing, and specifically by name. This would make HAL guilty of "bait and switch" tactics, if this expectation readily gets thrown under the bus in favor of un-noticed large groups on that particular cruise.

 

I personally do not recall this current situation on the NA having come up on CC before. Anyone with a better memory than mine? Seems like most of the froth here has been between Collectors Cruise or World passengers versus single segment passengers. Internecine warfare.

[iancal]

No matter what, we would be very displeased if this occurred on our cruise. We would never intentionally book a cruise that had a large group on it. Just one reason why we book inside the final payment window, do lots of research, and do not limit ourselves to any one cruise line.

 

Bottom line...I think HAl treated the non group passengers in a cavalier and in a very poor manner. IMHO it reflects very poorly on HAL and on the ship's management. It certainly would not encourage us to book our next cruise with HAL.

 

This is a great heads up to everyone to check the boards for group cruise data, read the reviews, and the comments. No one wants to intentionally get stuck on a dud of a cruise..on any cruise line.

[RocketMan275]

Technically, "as you wish dining" may not be in the cruise contract, but it is heavily featured in the HAL marketing, and specifically by name. This would make HAL guilty of "bait and switch" tactics, if this expectation readily gets thrown under the bus in favor of un-noticed large groups on that particular cruise. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2382292&highlight=group

 

Legally, you have agreed that the cruise line can change or delete any activity on or off the ship. (see paragraph seven of the cruise contract). This overrides any "bait and switch" argument.

 

Legally, in addition:

-you have given up the right to a jury trial or class action suit.

-you have agreed to pursue any redress (except injury death etc) through arbitration in the State Of Washington. Your chances of winning in arbitration are very slim.

 

I personally do not recall this current situation on the NA having come up on CC before. Anyone with a better memory than mine? Seems like most of the froth here has been between Collectors Cruise or World passengers versus single segment passengers. Internecine warfare.

 

Took just a few minutes. Found this in the celebrity forum. Specifically see post #4. Exactly the same situation:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2382292&highlight=group

 

It is not my intent to defend the cruise line. I've been very vocal about how cruise lines treat passengers not in a group or a charter. My intent is to explain where you stand legally. You have none.

[OlsSalt]

Technically, "as you wish dining" may not be in the cruise contract, but it is heavily featured in the HAL marketing, and specifically by name. This would make HAL guilty of "bait and switch" tactics, if this expectation readily gets thrown under the bus in favor of un-noticed large groups on that particular cruise. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2382292&highlight=group

 

Legally, you have agreed that the cruise line can change or delete any activity on or off the ship. (see paragraph seven of the cruise contract). This overrides any "bait and switch" argument.

 

Legally, in addition:

-you have given up the right to a jury trial or class action suit.

-you have agreed to pursue any redress (except injury death etc) through arbitration in the State Of Washington. Your chances of winning in arbitration are very slim.

 

 

 

Took just a few minutes. Found this in the celebrity forum. Specifically see post #4. Exactly the same situation:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2382292&highlight=group

 

It is not my intent to defend the cruise line. I've been very vocal about how cruise lines treat passengers not in a group or a charter. My intent is to explain where you stand legally. You have none.

 

Why bother suing? Just don't take any more HAL cruises.

 

Take the temperature of the room here. Long time HAL loyalists have found this arbitrary action taken by HAL management on this particular cruise to be unacceptable and worrisome. The fine print absolves HAL from virtually any liability for anything, which is typical in these types of one-sided "contracts of adhesion". But a material decline in expected on-board service levels, with no prior notice, is a deal killer.

 

The more reports we get that are similar to this past experience on the NA will be HAL's call. The fact we now have to research on our own to avoid this possibility on future cruises is tiresome and not what should be expected from the regular cruise ship passenger. Once HAL gets a reputation for being a "large group" cruise ship, regular bookings I suspect will continue to drop.

 

Just like Carnival has the reputation for being a "noisy, drunk party ship, even though individual passengers have had perfectly nice experiences on Carnival ships regardless.

 

That being said, if Seattle thinks the days of HAL being a regular passenger ship are over and their emphasis will now be large groups that is perfectly fine for them because they are the bean counters and we old time HAL loyalists may well go the way of the dodo bird. I can appreciate that. If we no longer "pay our way", I wouldn't blame HAL for getting rid of us by act, word or deed. And the numbers of four and five star Mariner loyalist discounts may well be a good thing, gone bad for HAL.

[iancal]

Exactly.

 

We vote with our feet and with our wallets. Shut up and go away future OBCs don't cut it for us. Neither do empty excuses.

 

We do not believe in rewarding vendors who fail to deliver on the expectations that they set.

 

We find markets shifting these days. Not just in the cruise industry but across the board. We continue to shift our custom to meet those changes.

[summersigh]

As to the question of my "prior cruise expections" :

Quoted from http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-onboard/Dining.action?tabName=Main%20Dining%20Room&WT.ac=Dining_MainDining

(the bolding/underline are my addition for the topic being discussed here)

 

On crisp white linen, course after course arrives. Behind the scenes, our master chefs have brought flavors to perfection. For an elegant breakfast, leisurely lunch or unforgettable five-course dinners designed by Master Chef Rudi Sodamin, the main dining room is your destination for elegant dining aboard.

As You Wish® Dining

Flexibility is the hallmark of our As You Wish® dining program, and in the main Dining Room, it’s your choice of a traditional pre-set seating and dining time or a flexible open schedule.

One level of the two-tiered restaurant will offer a flexible/open dining service from 5:15 to 9 p.m. daily, and the other will host two seatings, an early seating at 5:45 p.m. and main seating at 8 p.m. Pre-set dining times are subject to change based on itinerary. Guests selecting flexible open seating may make reservations daily during a cruise up to 4 p.m. or simply walk up anytime during dining hours.

[Old As Dirt Mom]

As to the question of my "prior cruise expections" :

Quoted from http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-onboard/Dining.action?tabName=Main%20Dining%20Room&WT.ac=Dining_MainDining

(the bolding/underline are my addition for the topic being discussed here)

 

On crisp white linen, course after course arrives. Behind the scenes, our master chefs have brought flavors to perfection. For an elegant breakfast, leisurely lunch or unforgettable five-course dinners designed by Master Chef Rudi Sodamin, the main dining room is your destination for elegant dining aboard.

As You Wish® Dining

Flexibility is the hallmark of our As You Wish® dining program, and in the main Dining Room, it’s your choice of a traditional pre-set seating and dining time or a flexible open schedule.

One level of the two-tiered restaurant will offer a flexible/open dining service from 5:15 to 9 p.m. daily, and the other will host two seatings, an early seating at 5:45 p.m. and main seating at 8 p.m. Pre-set dining times are subject to change based on itinerary. Guests selecting flexible open seating may make reservations daily during a cruise up to 4 p.m. or simply walk up anytime during dining hours.

 

Yes, the pertinent phrase here being "subject to change based on itinerary". If your itinerary includes a very large group, you are SOL. Thanks for doing the research, and the quote.