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Check Your Flights - re:Boeing

sippican

By sippican,
in Celebrity Cruises

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Lance881

Lance881

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, jaapie said:

We are booked on a United flight to Florida the day before our cruise. I checked and the flight info says 737 Max 9. 

Is 9 also a concern or only 8?

The 737 Max 9 is a longer version of the 737 Max 8.  Assume the only difference is length of the fuselage.

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ScubesDad

ScubesDad

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Lance881 said:

The 737 Max 9 is a longer version of the 737 Max 8.  Assume the only difference is length of the fuselage.

 

Canada has grounded both max 8 and max 9.....so most likely same issue

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Despegue

Despegue

Posted
Posted

Check Airman on B737 here, but no experience with the MAX myself as I am currently flying B747.

 

There is a very good reason why EASA ( European version of the FAA) and most other developped Aviation nations have grounded the B737-8 MAX and -9 MAX.

 

2 fatal accidents within 5 months, with a similar profile and a  new software system that is hugely critisized by the Airline pilot community as it is deficient and simply dangerous in design and operationand which was even hidden from us by Boeing until the Lionair crash in October makes grounding the aircraft the Safe option at the moment until we learn more and until Boeing comes up with a solution to the MCAS software.

yes, this so-called MCAS system, which is a software feature that basically pitches the nose down when it senses ( through outside sensors called angle-of-attack sensors) it needs to do so to avoid an unflyable situation. This goes against the flightcrew input as this happens ONLY in manual flight. ( reports that the MAX had similar behaviour with the autopilot ON is therefore of even greater concern) and is based on only 1 sensor, which is subject to being faulty or damaged. The crew would then have to struggle, close to the ground, an aircraft that basically wants to dive down into that ground, until 2 switches are flipped. This IS a so-called memory item, meaning that flightcrew on the MAX know this procedure by heart, but when things happen fast, close to the ground and in a potentially much more confusing situation, like lack of reliable airspeed, this is A typical Swiss cheese-hole situation. ( those with Safety experience will inow what I mean).

so why was this MCAS system installed anyway? Simply put: because otherwise, the B737MAX would not pass certification.

the aircraft is based on a design from the 60’s, and has been adapted over the years. With the new engines, certification aerodynamic characteristics would be unsatisfactory without a system to make this artificially better. 

I love the B737. It is a reliable, well designed aircraft that is mostly benign to fly. Unfortunately, and this is not only my opinion but that of many colleagues, Boeing used the design passed its sell-by date to be able to offer an economical answer to Airbus witht the A320NEO ( itself not without issues either, but more engine related).

also, please please understand that this is ONLY regarding the B737MAX and not about the B737-700/800/900 or earlier models.

 

You can most easily recognize a B737MAX by looking at the back of the engines. If they have sawteeth around the cowlings, it is a MAX.

 

 

 

Now for the unfortunately slightly Political part which I need to include to understand the reluctance of the FAA to ground the MAX, and which is deeply saddening...

Boeing has been working on a Software Update since November, but is delayed with bringing it out by several weeks, partly due to a government shutdown in the USA and the FAA not being able to cooperate with Boeing on  realization and certification of the software fix. 

At the same time, the US FAA is working with an Acting Administrator, who is very capable, but does see pressure from the top US Government, as that commander-in Chief  has his own “man” lined-up for the job ( one of his personal pilots actually,  not the ones assigned to AF1, but flying the private B757).

At the same...

Boeing has been urging the Government NOT to ground the aircraft, and the CEO , mr. Muilenburg, has been placing calls with Washington for the last 48 hours.  At the same time, its CEO is a large financial contributor to the current persons in the White house.

we all claim that Safety is first. Unfortunately , often it is Politics first. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Despegue

Instructor/ Examiner B737.300-900

Captain B747-400/-8i

Maritime and Aviation Emergency and Evacuation auditor

Chairman TCAS Maritime and Aviation Safety


 

 
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waterbug123

waterbug123

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Want2Cruise 701 said:

We switched our flight on Southwest for no charge.  I called two nights ago to check, and we were on a 737 Max8 to PR for our Summit cruise.  I also feel more comfortable doing so since we fly in two weeks, and if they do decide to ground the planes here in the US, I won't have to worry about a last minute change.

 

You do understand that if the Max 8s get grounded, Southwest might have to make a lot of changes to flights including yours? 

 

1 hour ago, kimberpuppy said:

Meh,  there are what, 350 MAX's that have been delivered and only two of them have crashed, killing everyone on board.

 

Less than 1% of them have crashed.  No big deal.

 

 

 

 

 

Well that's a rather dismissive answer.  The details surrounding the two crashes, including pilot comments about new software being used on them, speak to a pattern that may be developing.  In other words, it may be more than coincidence that both crashes were of the same exact type of aircraft. 

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kimberpuppy

kimberpuppy

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Despegue said:

Check Airman on B737 here, but no experience with the MAX myself as I am currently flying B747.

 

There is a very good reason why EASA ( European version of the FAA) and most other developped Aviation nations have grounded the B737-8 MAX and -9 MAX.

 

2 fatal accidents within 5 months, with a similar profile and a  new software system that is hugely critisized by the Airline pilot community as it is deficient and simply dangerous in design and operationand which was even hidden from us by Boeing until the Lionair crash in October makes grounding the aircraft the Safe option at the moment until we learn more and until Boeing comes up with a solution to the MCAS software.

yes, this so-called MCAS system, which is a software feature that basically pitches the nose down when it senses ( through outside sensors called angle-of-attack sensors) it needs to do so to avoid an unflyable situation. This goes against the flightcrew input as this happens ONLY in manual flight. ( reports that the MAX had similar behaviour with the autopilot ON is therefore of even greater concern) and is based on only 1 sensor, which is subject to being faulty or damaged. The crew would then have to struggle, close to the ground, an aircraft that basically wants to dive down into that ground, until 2 switches are flipped. This IS a so-called memory item, meaning that flightcrew on the MAX know this procedure by heart, but when things happen fast, close to the ground and in a potentially much more confusing situation, like lack of reliable airspeed, this is A typical Swiss cheese-hole situation. ( those with Safety experience will inow what I mean).

so why was this MCAS system installed anyway? Simply put: because otherwise, the B737MAX would not pass certification.

the aircraft is based on a design from the 60’s, and has been adapted over the years. With the new engines, certification aerodynamic characteristics would be unsatisfactory without a system to make this artificially better. 

I love the B737. It is a reliable, well designed aircraft that is mostly benign to fly. Unfortunately, and this is not only my opinion but that of many colleagues, Boeing used the design passed its sell-by date to be able to offer an economical answer to Airbus witht the A320NEO ( itself not without issues either, but more engine related).

also, please please understand that this is ONLY regarding the B737MAX and not about the B737-700/800/900 or earlier models.

 

You can most easily recognize a B737MAX by looking at the back of the engines. If they have sawteeth around the cowlings, it is a MAX.

 

 

 

Now for the unfortunately slightly Political part which I need to include to understand the reluctance of the FAA to ground the MAX, and which is deeply saddening...

Boeing has been working on a Software Update since November, but is delayed with bringing it out by several weeks, partly due to a government shutdown in the USA and the FAA not being able to cooperate with Boeing on  realization and certification of the software fix. 

At the same time, the US FAA is working with an Acting Administrator, who is very capable, but does see pressure from the top US Government, as that commander-in Chief  has his own “man” lined-up for the job ( one of his personal pilots actually,  not the ones assigned to AF1, but flying the private B757).

At the same...

Boeing has been urging the Government NOT to ground the aircraft, and the CEO , mr. Muilenburg, has been placing calls with Washington for the last 48 hours.  At the same time, its CEO is a large financial contributor to the current persons in the White house.

we all claim that Safety is first. Unfortunately , often it is Politics first. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Despegue

Instructor/ Examiner B737.300-900

Captain B747-400/-8i

Maritime and Aviation Emergency and Evacuation auditor

Chairman TCAS Maritime and Aviation Safety 


 

 

 

I knew someone on the internet would blame Trump for these plane crashes, just didn't realize it would come from the CC forum.

 

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sippican

sippican

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, kimberpuppy said:

Meh,  there are what, 350 MAX's that have been delivered and only two of them have crashed, killing everyone on board.

 

Less than 1% of them have crashed.  No big deal.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure the families of those lost consider it a big deal. May you never be impacted by such a tragedy.

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BaumD

BaumD

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, kimberpuppy said:

Meh,  there are what, 350 MAX's that have been delivered and only two of them have crashed, killing everyone on board.

 

Less than 1% of them have crashed.  No big deal.

 

In 2017, there were 7,309 commercial aircraft in the USA. If 1% crashed each year that would be 73 crashes. Assume 200 people per plane, that's 14,600 people. Yup, that's a big deal.

 

 

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kimberpuppy

kimberpuppy

Posted
Posted
Just now, BaumD said:

 

In 2017, there were 7,309 commercial aircraft in the USA. If 1% crashed each year that would be 73 crashes. Assume 200 people per plane, that's 14,600 people. Yup, that's a big deal.

 

 

 

14,830 people died last year in bathtubs in the US.   

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hvbaskey

hvbaskey

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, kimberpuppy said:

 

I knew someone on the internet would blame Trump for these plane crashes, just didn't realize it would come from the CC forum.

 

 
@Despegue delivered an informative, well educated reply.  I did not read any blame in his message.

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Despegue

Despegue

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, kimberpuppy said:

 

I knew someone on the internet would blame Trump for these plane crashes, just didn't realize it would come from the CC forum.

 

Hey, I am ONLY stating FACTS without Political bias.

your comment is uncalled for.

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hvbaskey

hvbaskey

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, sippican said:

Please be aware that your air reservations may be impacted by the Boeing 737 Max 8 troubles.

Some countries have grounded that specific aircraft, and some (Europe countries most notably) have banned it from their airspace.

 

I am not trying to ba an alarmist, and have no opinion either way regarding the bans. 

It just pays to be aware if you are shceduled to fly on one of these aircrafts.

 

Back to the ORIGINAL POST - for those who are booked on a 737 MAX, you would be well advised to check your air reservations, as the majority of 737 MAXs have now been grounded.  Following suit of other countries, Canada (this morning) and the USA (this afternoon), have grounded them.

Edited by hvbaskey
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hvbaskey

hvbaskey

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ma Bell said:

Gee, they'll probably take away your security clearance if they know you're posting this on a public message board.

 

It’s not that much of a secret - the same message regarding the software glitch has been reported across many different social media forums.

Edited by hvbaskey
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Ma Bell

Ma Bell

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, hvbaskey said:

 

It’s not that much of a secret - the same message has been reported across many different social media forums.

I know. That doesn't = facts.

 

Edited by Ma Bell
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Ma Bell

Ma Bell

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, hvbaskey said:

 

It’s not that much of a secret - the same message regarding the software glitch has been reported across many different social media forums.

The software glitch is one thing, the political stuff is another. This is a cruise board.

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hcat "Live from...." Rare

hcat

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Despegue said:

Check Airman on B737 here, but no experience with the MAX myself as I am currently flying B747.

 

There is a very good reason why EASA ( European version of the FAA) and most other developped Aviation nations have grounded the B737-8 MAX and -9 MAX.

 

 

......................content deleted to save space...see  full  post above........


 

Kind regards,

 

Despegue

Instructor/ Examiner B737.300-900

Captain B747-400/-8i

Maritime and Aviation Emergency and Evacuation auditor

Chairman TCAS Maritime and Aviation Safety


 

 

Thanks for the info from your professional perspective.....glad they are now grounded.  Safety First!

 

Our flight next week was not scheduled on one of these  aircraft,  but now I expect SW Air will be  re doing U,S,  schedules to re book flights affected,.  Hope it runs smoothly...

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