Gratuity on top of Cover Charge

[Bo1953]

5 hours ago, mayleeman said:

 

Nice post, and good to see you back here again (I might have just missed your posts because I don’t read all the threads!).

 

The first post by Carole just said the rep quoted the price and then the charge for gratuity showed up on the bill. Her later post included the conversation where she says she specifically asked if tip was included and was told yes. The second version (the one you quoted) definitely shows a problem of the rep being wrong/careless at best, and possibly lying at worst. Her first version presented an omission that may have been entirely innocent because the base price was probably what the rep thought was being asked. Nothing nefarious IMO.

m - thank you for the nice comment... I have been around and not posted much with a lot going on in my world, currently.

 

I would venture to say it is carelessness on the agents part and their not listening closely to the question.

 

Cheers and bon voyage

 

[SusieAV8R]

I have travelled the world since !972 and my experience has been tips ensures good service.  Glad to hear that your experience has differed greatly.

[SusieAV8R]

12 hours ago, Kilroyshere said:

We're booked and trying X in a Retreat Suite. This tip issue is one factor that will decide if we'll become repeat Retreaters.

 

We understood there would be no mandatory tip charges paying a premium price for a Retreat Suite as advertised on the X website that states Retreat Suite Featured Amenities Included "Tips" with a check mark by it

 

There's no notice on that Retreat feature page that the amenity of Tips Included does NOT apply to some Specialty or other Venues.

 

Am I wrong? 

 

Retreaters being charged 18% in some up-charge venue is a confusing and opaque contradiction from the X Amenities page stating Tips are included.

I believe that X defines on their website what "included tips" mean.  You likely need to read the "fine print".  

[CaroleSS]

SMH......Last post on this topic. My issue is with the drink package upgrade and not specialty dining, so it is not pertinent on this thread.

 

I'm not new to cruising. If you bothered to look at my join date on CC you would notice I've been here since 2008. I'm also not new to X. I know how to navigate their website and I know what to expect. 
 

I didn't really think I needed to spell out every single detail of my interactions with X reps as I thought I was telling about my experience, not being interrogated. Any "omissions" were because I didn't think they were necessary to make my point, but I guess I was mistaken.

 

It is NOT possible to upgrade from classic to premium on the X website. You HAVE to call. There has been some discussion on other threads and platforms for my specific cruise about how much people were paying for said upgrade. I've called several times to inquire about the cost as it seems to fluctuate from day to day....not sure why. With that being said, I know what the cost should be......including the gratuity minus my CC discount. My "issue" is that the reps almost always quote you a price without the gratuity included (but HAVE subtracted put the CC discount). I find this policy disingenuous and slightly "shady". Only after you say "yes" to the upgrade do they "add it to the cart" which then adds in the gratuity.....but if I do not specifically ask if the cost includes the gratuity, they don't tell you. And even when I specifically ask about the gratuity being included, the price was misrepresented to me. My story was a cautionary one.....to help others who might not be watching as closely.

[Definitas]

At one point in time Celebrity used to say that the additional charge for speciality dining was, in part, to reward the staff who were going the extra mile to provide a first class dining experience.  Presumably the entire up front speciality dining charge now goes into the Celebrity coffers and they add an additional 18% for the staff. 

[D C]

20 hours ago, Definitas said:

At one point in time Celebrity used to say that the additional charge for speciality dining was, in part, to reward the staff who were going the extra mile to provide a first class dining experience.  Presumably the entire up front speciality dining charge now goes into the Celebrity coffers and they add an additional 18% for the staff. 

Exactly.

Dinner (w/ServiceCharge included) = Old Total Price

DinnerPrice+MandatoryServiceCharge = New Total Price

Instant 18% additional in Celebrity's coffers with the new price model. 

[jelayne]

On 10/31/2022 at 8:25 PM, CaroleSS said:

SMH......Last post on this topic. My issue is with the drink package upgrade and not specialty dining, so it is not pertinent on this thread.

 

I'm not new to cruising. If you bothered to look at my join date on CC you would notice I've been here since 2008. I'm also not new to X. I know how to navigate their website and I know what to expect. 
 

I didn't really think I needed to spell out every single detail of my interactions with X reps as I thought I was telling about my experience, not being interrogated. Any "omissions" were because I didn't think they were necessary to make my point, but I guess I was mistaken.

 

It is NOT possible to upgrade from classic to premium on the X website. You HAVE to call. There has been some discussion on other threads and platforms for my specific cruise about how much people were paying for said upgrade. I've called several times to inquire about the cost as it seems to fluctuate from day to day....not sure why. With that being said, I know what the cost should be......including the gratuity minus my CC discount. My "issue" is that the reps almost always quote you a price without the gratuity included (but HAVE subtracted put the CC discount). I find this policy disingenuous and slightly "shady". Only after you say "yes" to the upgrade do they "add it to the cart" which then adds in the gratuity.....but if I do not specifically ask if the cost includes the gratuity, they don't tell you. And even when I specifically ask about the gratuity being included, the price was misrepresented to me. My story was a cautionary one.....to help others who might not be watching as closely.

 I called to upgrade in August and  I had calculated the cost but didn’t mention it to the rep just ask for cost to upgrade with CC discount.  The price I was quoted was was 4 cents different than what I calculated and did include the gratuity.

[Definitas]

13 minutes ago, D C said:

Exactly.

Dinner (w/ServiceCharge included) = Old Total Price

DinnerPrice+MandatoryServiceCharge = New Total Price

Instant 18% additional in Celebrity's coffers with the new price model. 

It will definitely dissuade us from using the speciality restaurants. We have had lacklustre experiences in Murano and Tuscan Grille this year and would question the use of the word “speciality” to describe them. We have noticed that some of our previous favourites have been taken off the Tuscan menu and replaced with items that are just not as inviting. There is also the “cultural divide” with the 18% tip which we see as excessive as a “routine tip”. Here in the UK it is still thankfully uncommon to have a tip added automatically and the latest norm in the US of printing a range of suggested amounts beginning at 18% verges on extortion. It reminds me of how budget airlines advertise a low price ticket and then add a whole range of additional charges. (I shouldn’t say too much or they will start adding 18% gratuity for the flight attendants!) The situation is further exacerbated because £UK is down over 20% on the dollar against historic norms. I’m not against tipping for good service or rewarding those who go the extra mile (of which there are many amongst Celebrity crews) but I want to decide myself who to tip, when to tip and how much to give them. Put simply, I resent Celebrity (or anyone else) presuming that I will be happy to add almost a fifth to my bill before I have even sampled the food or experienced the service. 

[AnnaNicole]

22 minutes ago, Definitas said:

It will definitely dissuade us from using the speciality restaurants. We have had lacklustre experiences in Murano and Tuscan Grille this year and would question the use of the word “speciality” to describe them. We have noticed that some of our previous favourites have been taken off the Tuscan menu and replaced with items that are just not as inviting. There is also the “cultural divide” with the 18% tip which we see as excessive as a “routine tip”. Here in the UK it is still thankfully uncommon to have a tip added automatically and the latest norm in the US of printing a range of suggested amounts beginning at 18% verges on extortion. It reminds me of how budget airlines advertise a low price ticket and then add a whole range of additional charges. (I shouldn’t say too much or they will start adding 18% gratuity for the flight attendants!) The situation is further exacerbated because £UK is down over 20% on the dollar against historic norms. I’m not against tipping for good service or rewarding those who go the extra mile (of which there are many amongst Celebrity crews) but I want to decide myself who to tip, when to tip and how much to give them. Put simply, I resent Celebrity (or anyone else) presuming that I will be happy to add almost a fifth to my bill before I have even sampled the food or experienced the service. 

I agree that tipping has become a little ridiculous in the US.  I'm not one who minds tipping but the rate is getting a bit high.   The expected rate is 20% and options on pay devices are much higher now too.

 

Counter service often has a tipping option and I have often seen 20%, 25%, and 30% defaulted and/or listed first.   It's weird.   I have also noticed a tendency of tipping on top of taxes and fees on delivery services and tipping percentage calculator on receipts.   

 

I lived in the UK and Scandinavia and I prefer their all-inclusive method.   Just give me the total charge upfront.   I will happily pay the service charge.

 

[Ipeeinthepools]

31 minutes ago, Definitas said:

It will definitely dissuade us from using the speciality restaurants. We have had lacklustre experiences in Murano and Tuscan Grille this year and would question the use of the word “speciality” to describe them. We have noticed that some of our previous favourites have been taken off the Tuscan menu and replaced with items that are just not as inviting. There is also the “cultural divide” with the 18% tip which we see as excessive as a “routine tip”. Here in the UK it is still thankfully uncommon to have a tip added automatically and the latest norm in the US of printing a range of suggested amounts beginning at 18% verges on extortion. It reminds me of how budget airlines advertise a low price ticket and then add a whole range of additional charges. (I shouldn’t say too much or they will start adding 18% gratuity for the flight attendants!) The situation is further exacerbated because £UK is down over 20% on the dollar against historic norms. I’m not against tipping for good service or rewarding those who go the extra mile (of which there are many amongst Celebrity crews) but I want to decide myself who to tip, when to tip and how much to give them. Put simply, I resent Celebrity (or anyone else) presuming that I will be happy to add almost a fifth to my bill before I have even sampled the food or experienced the service. 

 

Have you ever heard of the saying "When in Rome ..."  Meals are a lot more expensive in the UK, the next time I visit London, maybe I should only pay what I would pay in the US.

[Definitas]

2 hours ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

Have you ever heard of the saying "When in Rome ..."  Meals are a lot more expensive in the UK, the next time I visit London, maybe I should only pay what I would pay in the US.

An interesting comparison. I’m not sure where we ought to think we are when onboard but, despite the bulk of the passengers being from the US, we are neither in Rome, nor in the US. If we take the ship's registration we would be in Malta, where tipping is almost never expected. Indeed, leaving aside what those working in tourism expect, tipping is not at all widespread in Europe and m when tips are given, they are nowhere near the amounts expected in the US. I’m not sure where you go to or which restaurants you frequent in the UK but I can categorically say that the cost of living in the US is way more than it is here. We have family in Chicago and recently spent a month living in a condo belonging to a relative and were shocked at the price of pretty much all food items in supermarkets. In mid price restaurants the price of food and drinks was off the scale compared to our prices. Most of the basics were double or more than we pay here. However, all of that is largely irrelevant. It is, as I said previously, a cultural thing. In Germany (where a fair number of my family live and where I lived and worked for 10 years,  being employed in a bar is restaurants largely requires professional training and is considered prestigious and so attracts a decent salary meaning that tipping is not necessarily expected and rounding up to the nearest note denomination is often the norm. Tipping for getting a beer whilst sitting at a bar is definitely not just expected. Our prices are all shown inclusive of tax so you don’t have to factor in 30% for tax and tip like you do in Chicago. Unfortunately, the employment practices in places like the US and on the ships where there is no legal minimum wage and people are employed in some cases for a pittance means  that people in the service industry have to rely on the generosity (or otherwise) of their customers. Instead of spreading this model around the world, the perpetrators need to clean up their act and pay their staff a living wage so they don’t need to depend on hand outs from their customers 

[Definitas]

2 hours ago, AnnaNicole said:

I agree that tipping has become a little ridiculous in the US.  I'm not one who minds tipping but the rate is getting a bit high.   The expected rate is 20% and options on pay devices are much higher now too.

 

Counter service often has a tipping option and I have often seen 20%, 25%, and 30% defaulted and/or listed first.   It's weird.   I have also noticed a tendency of tipping on top of taxes and fees on delivery services and tipping percentage calculator on receipts.   

 

I lived in the UK and Scandinavia and I prefer their all-inclusive method.   Just give me the total charge upfront.   I will happily pay the service charge.

 

That is pretty much where I stand too. I took my granddaughter into an ice cream parlour to get a cone to go and went to pay for it using my phone and 18, 20 and 25% tip options came up and were based on the total price including tax. We would definitely not be expected to pay a tip on ice cream to take out. However, as previously mentioned, “When in Rome”.  It was the first time I gave any thought to the fact that tips are calculated on the tax as well as the goods and service. Of course, we have VAT at 20% included in all of our bar and restaurant charges and I also never thought about the fact that we automatically tip on top of that (albeit at an average 10%)

Edited November 3, 2022 by Definitas

[gizmodog]

I think that is a wonderful point that tipping and how much should depend on the service and the food, not done beforehand. I really resent having to tip before I get the service. I have always tipped and been generous I believe, I know some people don’t tip, that is their culture, it’s getting ridiculous but as long as people are more then willing to dole out their money without question, things will never change just keep getting worse. 
I have travelled to Europe extensively and I do not look down upon them for their tipping practices, we will still tip,

but admitingly not as much as is expected here in the USA. To each their own, I’m just sorry that celebrity feels they have to continue to add on charges, even when you are told all gratuities are included. I could pay the 18% and it would be no more then what I generally tip in cash, but if my server is not pleasant and makes mistakes on our orders and is slow and not caring about our happiness with our experience, they should not be getting an 18% tip.

 

[Ipeeinthepools]

20 minutes ago, Definitas said:

... Unfortunately, the employment practices in places like the US and on the ships where there is no legal minimum wage and people are employed in some cases for a pittance means  that people in the service industry have to rely on the generosity (or otherwise) of their customers. Instead of spreading this model around the world, the perpetrators need to clean up their act and pay their staff a living wage so they don’t need to depend on hand outs from their customers 

 

So, your solution for this is not tip so the service workers take home even less.  Great plan.  You may not like the system but that's the system that generated your cruise fare or the cost of your dinner as well as the wages for the service workers.   Please re-think your position and consider tipping when it is expected.

[Mark_T]

3 hours ago, Definitas said:

There is also the “cultural divide” with the 18% tip which we see as excessive as a “routine tip”.

 

To avoid any misunderstandings, the 'tip' on UK (... and Australian) originating cruises is already included in the pricing for the bars and restaurants.

 

So a $60 up-charge for Murano for example becomes $71 on those cruises.

 

Similarly the drink prices are increased and the allowance for the AI package along with it ($15 for the premium package becomes $18)

[Mark_T]

2 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 Please re-think your position and consider tipping when it is expected.

I think I've said this before, and it is not personally directed at you, but since you made the request, I wonder if I could make a reciprocal request...

 

It would be a wonderful thing if those used to the high-tipping culture of the US would also re-think their position when in countries where it is not culturally normal to tip so highly, or indeed to tip at all in some cases. 

 

It has a negative impact for the local population when foreigners don't confirm to the local customs, which I think is something we could agree on perhaps?...

[D C]

1 hour ago, Definitas said:

It will definitely dissuade us from using the speciality restaurants. We have had lacklustre experiences in Murano and Tuscan Grille this year and would question the use of the word “speciality” to describe them. We have noticed that some of our previous favourites have been taken off the Tuscan menu and replaced with items that are just not as inviting. There is also the “cultural divide” with the 18% tip which we see as excessive as a “routine tip”. Here in the UK it is still thankfully uncommon to have a tip added automatically and the latest norm in the US of printing a range of suggested amounts beginning at 18% verges on extortion. It reminds me of how budget airlines advertise a low price ticket and then add a whole range of additional charges. (I shouldn’t say too much or they will start adding 18% gratuity for the flight attendants!) The situation is further exacerbated because £UK is down over 20% on the dollar against historic norms. I’m not against tipping for good service or rewarding those who go the extra mile (of which there are many amongst Celebrity crews) but I want to decide myself who to tip, when to tip and how much to give them. Put simply, I resent Celebrity (or anyone else) presuming that I will be happy to add almost a fifth to my bill before I have even sampled the food or experienced the service. 

Unfortunately, the US wage structure assumes conformance with the social norm of tipping at least 15%. It's expected that you're tipping that as a minimum for service that may be merely "acceptable". 

Is staff in a specialty restaurant paid less because of an assumption the difference will be made up for with tips?  

[kirtihk]

3 minutes ago, D C said:

Unfortunately, the US wage structure assumes conformance with the social norm of tipping at least 15%. It's expected that you're tipping that as a minimum for service that may be merely "acceptable". 

Is staff in a specialty restaurant paid less because of an assumption the difference will be made up for with tips?  

What I don't understand the most about this topic since day 1 I moved to US in 1991 is how and why % is related of the total bill?  What I mean what's a difference whether one orders $15 dish item or $75?  Both involve exact the same time and service on a waiter part.  Or serving $30 versus $150 a bottle of wine?  So, a second person gets 5 times more than a first one in each example only because that person holds in her/his (oh, boy, I cannot believe I became politically correct, too!) hands for a few seconds a so precious dish or bottle.

[kirtihk]

20 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

  14 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 Please re-think your position and consider tipping when it is expected.

_____________________________________________________________________________

I think I've said this before, and it is not personally directed at you, but since you made the request, I wonder if I could make a reciprocal request...

 

It would be a wonderful thing if those used to the high-tipping culture of the US would also re-think their position when in countries where it is not culturally normal to tip so highly, or indeed to tip at all in some cases. 

 

It has a negative impact for the local population when foreigners don't confirm to the local customs, which I think is something we could agree on perhaps?...

Actually, I experienced in Germany a "mad" attitude toward this matter when one of our group in the restaurant suggested to add a %, and we agreed - the server gave us so "dirty" look!  It was embarrassing experience.

[D C]

8 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

What I don't understand the most about this topic since day 1 I moved to US in 1991 is how and why % is related of the total bill?  What I mean what's a difference whether one orders $15 dish item or $75?  Both involve exact the same time and service on a waiter part.  Or serving $30 versus $150 a bottle of wine?  So, a second person gets 5 times more than a first one in each example only because that person holds in her/his (oh, boy, I cannot believe I became politically correct, too!) hands for a few seconds a so precious dish or bottle.

You're paying for the "delivered with care" component, which is clearly at a higher level in the more expensive restaurant.  

It's definitely a bizarre construct.  And it's actually/unsurprisingly to the benefit of those who work in some placed.  My DIL waited tables while attending University and learned that the bar/restaurant on Fridays & Saturdays was far more lucrative than serving breakfast at the local family diner. 

I recall there being "no tipping" studies/experiments in the US that didn't go well.  The servers/bartenders made more $ with tipping.   It would be nice to know how it actually works out on ships. 

[Definitas]

50 minutes ago, gizmodog said:

I think that is a wonderful point that tipping and how much should depend on the service and the food, not done beforehand. I really resent having to tip before I get the service. I have always tipped and been generous I believe, I know some people don’t tip, that is their culture, it’s getting ridiculous but as long as people are more then willing to dole out their money without question, things will never change just keep getting worse. 
I have travelled to Europe extensively and I do not look down upon them for their tipping practices, we will still tip,

but admitingly not as much as is expected here in the USA. To each their own, I’m just sorry that celebrity feels they have to continue to add on charges, even when you are told all gratuities are included. I could pay the 18% and it would be no more then what I generally tip in cash, but if my server is not pleasant and makes mistakes on our orders and is slow and not caring about our happiness with our experience, they should not be getting an 18% tip.

 

I think that sums it up very well. We always tip and despite the current system of inclusive tips we always tip extra, particularly those we build up a rapport with. However, paying the tip before you even set foot in the establishment is clearly unacceptable. No restaurant I can think of in any country in the world demands you pay for food and service in advance on the day you book. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Definitas

[Definitas]

44 minutes ago, Ipeeinthepools said:

 

So, your solution for this is not tip so the service workers take home even less.  Great plan.  You may not like the system but that's the system that generated your cruise fare or the cost of your dinner as well as the wages for the service workers.   Please re-think your position and consider tipping when it is expected.

I didn’t say that I don’t tip.  Indeed, I consider myself fairly generous and I value good service and creating a rapport with crew members. However, I resent having to pay a gratuity up front (in the case of speciality restaurants before I have even set foot on the ship). However, a business model whereby people are paid a viable, legally mandated living wage by their employers and tips are a welcome bonus should be the norm. Unfortunately, cruise operators shirk their responsibilities by registering their ships under flags of convenience and are not subject to better standards of employment law. I have to confess that I don’t know anything about US employment law but presume there isn’t a legal minimum wage for employees in the service industry or, if there is, it is insufficient, requiring them to rely on tips to boost their income rather than being a welcome bonus. 

[hrhdhd]

Just now, Definitas said:

I didn’t say that I don’t tip.  Indeed, I consider myself fairly generous and I value good service and creating a rapport with crew members. However, I resent having to pay a gratuity up front (in the case of speciality restaurants before I have even set foot on the ship). However, a business model whereby people are paid a viable, legally mandated living wage by their employers and tips are a welcome bonus should be the norm. Unfortunately, cruise operators shirk their responsibilities by registering their ships under flags of convenience and are not subject to better standards of employment law. I have to confess that I don’t know anything about US employment law but presume there isn’t a legal minimum wage for employees in the service industry or, if there is, it is insufficient, requiring them to rely on tips to boost their income rather than being a welcome bonus. 

Of course, so-called "living wages" paid by employers are actually paid by the customers. Money doesn't grow on trees.

[kirtihk]

57 minutes ago, D C said:

You're paying for the "delivered with care" component, which is clearly at a higher level in the more expensive restaurant.  

It's definitely a bizarre construct.  And it's actually/unsurprisingly to the benefit of those who work in some placed.  My DIL waited tables while attending University and learned that the bar/restaurant on Fridays & Saturdays was far more lucrative than serving breakfast at the local family diner. 

I recall there being "no tipping" studies/experiments in the US that didn't go well.  The servers/bartenders made more $ with tipping.   It would be nice to know how it actually works out on ships. 

I like imagination... so, upon your reply, my image goes like that: one dish was "delivered with care" while another one (much less expensive for an order at the same table) was dropped (profoundly) by the same attendant on a person's laps (I even imagined a Jorge Carlin act on this subject).

[morpheusofthesea]

"The common feature of all forms of tipping is the voluntary and discretionary nature of the tip: the consumer is free to choose how much to tip, if at all. This definition excludes service charges, gratuities or tips imposed." "These cases have little in common to do with voluntary tipping."  What everyone is complaining about is not real tipping. Everyone is talking about 'junk fees'.

Edited November 3, 2022 by morpheusofthesea