Short-ish connection, should we fly a day earlier?

[DCGuy64]

17 minutes ago, m1k2s3 said:

I think that’s a little unfair. There are lots of airports experiencing delays and there are lots of reasons flights get delayed, the weather ( and any airport in Canada during the winter months have delays), mechanical issues for example that affect travel, not to mention the day and time of travel create congestion at many airports. I live in Toronto so I use YYZ and have travelled through YYZ several times in the last couple of months and never had any issues departing - but coming back has at times been challenging.

+1. The flight we're booked on took off on time and arrived 22 minutes early today, in fact. I think that when a passenger buys tickets on flights offered by the airline, then the airline is responsible for any delays, not the passenger.

[WayneLaR]

Whether you deem it unfair or not, it is a fact.  Source...https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2056928835691

 

 

[m1k2s3]

5 hours ago, WayneLaR said:

Whether you deem it unfair or not, it is a fact.  Source...https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2056928835691

 

 

That article was from 8 months ago. 

[davencl]

I also am generally concerned about short layovers.  It used to be 2 hours was no issue but lately I've had the following happen.   After cruise Sept. flight from London to Seattle (connecting to Portland) delayed by 3 hours due to queen's funeral.  Fortunately had a 4.5 hour layover in Seattle so made flight to Portland.  Many others didn't make it and had to stay in Seattle.   Jan. arriving in New Zealand after end of cruise, 10 inches of rain flooded airport which closed for 2 days.   Didn't leave for home until 3 days later.   Again after cruise 2 weeks ago flight from Aruba delayed by 2.5 hours so missed flight connection in Atlanta.  However Delta gave us food vouchers and nice hotel so not so bad.  Fly out next day.   None of these are directly related to your situtation but I haven't experienced a "normal" complete flight in the last 6 months..  🙂 

Edited March 25, 2023 by davencl

[jennybenny]

2 hours ago, davencl said:

I also am generally concerned about short layovers.  It used to be 2 hours was no issue but lately I've had the following happen.   After cruise Sept. flight from London to Seattle (connecting to Portland) delayed by 3 hours due to queen's funeral.  Fortunately had a 4.5 hour layover in Seattle so made flight to Portland.  Many others didn't make it and had to stay in Seattle.   Jan. arriving in New Zealand after end of cruise, 10 inches of rain flooded airport which closed for 2 days.   Didn't leave for home until 3 days later.   Again after cruise 2 weeks ago flight from Aruba delayed by 2.5 hours so missed flight connection in Atlanta.  However Delta gave us food vouchers and nice hotel so not so bad.  Fly out next day.   None of these are directly related to your situtation but I haven't experienced a "normal" complete flight in the last 6 months..  🙂 

Thanks for sharing, those are ALL perfect examples of when travel stuff happens! I too have been stuck in Atlanta overnight as well and gotten a voucher for a hotel. Been stuck in JFK and had to pay for my own hotel because the delay was weather related and Delta didn't compensate. It's unpredictable and never fun to have the disruption. Plus, it's not even anyone's "fault", it just happens. I know people who live on the edge and always take that short connection and arrive within 30 minutes of their flight only to mostly make it most times. I just don't work that way. I am much more at ease when there is plenty of time before flight, between flights and all around. 🙂

[WayneLaR]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:01 AM, m1k2s3 said:

That article was from 8 months ago. 

OK, post something that refutes it then.....

[m1k2s3]

1 hour ago, WayneLaR said:

OK, post something that refutes it then.....

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/toronto-pearson-makes-significant-progress-on-improving-the-airport-experience-for-passengers-837829919.html

[DCGuy64]

23 hours ago, m1k2s3 said:

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/toronto-pearson-makes-significant-progress-on-improving-the-airport-experience-for-passengers-837829919.html

Thanks, this definitely makes me feel more confident. ☺️

[Mura]

I only read the first few posts on this topic, and from what I see of these last ones perhaps you are feeling more secure.

 

So I will just say this:  do you want to risk missing the ship because the flight mlight be late?

 

On our first Renaissance cruise (back in 1999) we had switched our air from going to Milan (on a private trip) to flying into Lisbon for the cruise.  We were told that everything was ok but when we got to the airport, there was no problem switching my husband's flight but the supervisor chose to make an instruction lesson regarding MY reservation, which ended up in total disaster. When they finally got everything straightened out the clerk happily announced that our bags were going to Paris, at which I point I said "But we are going to Lisbon". And then it was too late to grab the bags off the cart.

 

In the meantime we had to run to our flight, the doors were closed and the attendants wouldn't let us on.  As if it was OUR fault!

 

So we arranged to go home, they flew us to Lisbon the next day and our bags were indeed waiting for us at our Lisbon hotel.

 

This all did work out well for us ...but do you want to risk that???

 

P.S.  Once we were on the ship we heard lost of complaints from other passengers about the cruise line's air arrangements.  Remember, this was O's predecessor (Renaisance). And yes, most of these people had flights from non-international airports.  But we learned then to plan ahead! And I am NOT saying that we have had similar problems on Oceania ... Even so, ever since we prefer to book our own air ... Since we fly to Europe from NYC we have an advantage over passengers who fly from the west coast or the mdwest since usually we can fly direct, or perhaps with only one stop..

 

Mura

[DCGuy64]

8 hours ago, Mura said:

This all did work out well for us ...but do you want to risk that???

To answer your question directly, no, I don't want to risk that. Now that I've answered your question, more detail: I don't want to risk missing our flight, but I also don't want to spend an additional $12,000 to change my existing tickets and fly to Tokyo an extra day early, which is what that would cost me. What I want comes with an additional cost that I can't afford. Furthermore, and I've said this a number of times on CC in regard to other posts, people who are satisfied aren't going to post how great their flights were, everything was on time, no bags lost, etc. Most of the time they won't bother to say anything, so (unstatistically) 99% of people who DO post are the ones who had issues. But that doesn't mean 99% of people were upset. I have been tracking the same flight numbers we'll be taking from DC to Tokyo over the past few days and while they haven't been 100% on time, they have been close to it. I'm not worried about the 2nd leg from YYZ to NRT because once we're on the plane to Tokyo, I'm not as concerned. We have a full day in Tokyo before the ship embarks, and I am confident we'll make it. Thanks. (BTW and FWIW, Toronto Pearson's own website says to allow 60 minutes to make international connections, and we have 1' 51")

[ChadnKate]

It matters not which airport you are or are not going through. ALWAYS arrive at least a day early. Even if the departure port isn't the best, there is probably a better city nearby worth a visit. If in Europe, fly into a major airport like Milan or Frankfurt; stay a day or two; then take the train to your embarkation port. Weather and flights aren't reliable. Or predictable. 

Or tale Oceania's air (more on that in many other forums) and leave the burden up to them.

[Mura]

On 3/28/2023 at 11:05 AM, ChadnKate said:

It matters not which airport you are or are not going through. ALWAYS arrive at least a day early. Even if the departure port isn't the best, there is probably a better city nearby worth a visit. If in Europe, fly into a major airport like Milan or Frankfurt; stay a day or two; then take the train to your embarkation port. Weather and flights aren't reliable. Or predictable. 

Or tale Oceania's air (more on that in many other forums) and leave the burden up to them.

Sounds like what we do!  We learned early on NOT to try to fly in  on the day of the cruise.  Most people arrive zombied out.

 

I think it was our second Renaissance cruise.  We flew in to LHR and took the train to Dover, spent 3 days there.  The morning that the cruise was to board, we were having breakfast at the hotel when the new arrivals came in ... they were totally exhausted. This was probably around 10am.

 

And then on board we heard terrible stories from other passengers about the "free" flight arrangements ... the worst stories were from people who didn't fly direct from NY or NJ, of course.  But coming from  the far west or mid west ... it was terrible. As far as I recall, mostly due to connections flying from one airport to the next and then finally getting a flight to Europe.  This was more than 20 years ago, so perhaps not so bad these days.

 

From then on we did our own air!  And later on we decided we needed biz air rather than coach ... which clearly is better if you book your own anyway.

 

Mura

[ChadnKate]

11 minutes ago, Mura said:

Sounds like what we do!  We learned early on NOT to try to fly in  on the day of the cruise.  Most people arrive zombied out.

 

I think it was our second Renaissance cruise.  We flew in to LHR and took the train to Dover, spent 3 days there.  The morning that the cruise was to board, we were having breakfast at the hotel when the new arrivals came in ... they were totally exhausted. This was probably around 10am.

 

And then on board we heard terrible stories from other passengers about the "free" flight arrangements ... the worst stories were from people who didn't fly direct from NY or NJ, of course.  But coming from  the far west or mid west ... it was terrible. As far as I recall, mostly due to connections flying from one airport to the next and then finally getting a flight to Europe.  This was more than 20 years ago, so perhaps not so bad these days.

 

From then on we did our own air!  And later on we decided we needed biz air rather than coach ... which clearly is better if you book your own anyway.

 

Mura

The foremost question is whether you get there before the cruise departure. Secondary is how you feel that first day. 
what we do (we’re retired). Book cruise very early up to 2 years in advance. Figure out what flies you there best. Then we accumulate points/miles and grab our reward flights when they first are available, usually 11 months early. If you can do that and require (very bad back) lie flat seats, avoiding the cost of the flights may approach the cost of the cruise. 

[Mura]

1 minute ago, ChadnKate said:

The foremost question is whether you get there before the cruise departure. Secondary is how you feel that first day. 
what we do (we’re retired). Book cruise very early up to 2 years in advance. Figure out what flies you there best. Then we accumulate points/miles and grab our reward flights when they first are available, usually 11 months early. If you can do that and require (very bad back) lie flat seats, avoiding the cost of the flights may approach the cost of the cruise. 

I do agree.  I was speaking about a 1999 cruise when the newcomers were clearly flying in on the day the cruise left.  In fact, we never EVER have flown in on the day of departure.

 

Partly that was because when we got that first "invitation" from Ren we already had plans to fly to Milan about the same time as the cruise was to leave from Lisbon, so we switched.  The only problem we encountered was that the airline had no problem switching Howard's flight (we were told just show up at the airport and it will be taken care of) BUT they couldn't switch MY flight.  And by the time they did we didn't have time to get to the plane which was already shut down for departure (the staff there acted like it was OUR fault which it was not).  Plus the helpful desk clerk taking our luggage told us that our bags would be in Paris for our arrival ... but of course we were NOT going to Paris!

 

In the end it worked out okay.  We came back to the airport the next day and our bags were waiting at our hotel when we arrived a day later ...

 

But back to the beginning ... we do tend to book a year ahead and we do our own flights.  There are also plenty of discount biz and 1st seats available ...

 

As I think about it, the time when we saw the shell-shocked passengers arriving in Dover was our SECOND Renaissance cruise.  But we had remembered the comments we heard on the first Lisbon-Barcelona cruise ... and concluded that we would never take a Ren "free" flight.  Much later on we did take an upgrade on a Ren flight for premium economy seats, which did work out fine.  But for the most part Ren biz fares are outrageous (even if flying from NYC to Europe) but those PE flights were very satisfactory.  I think that particular flight was to Copenhagen but don't quote me on that ...

 

Mura

[ChadnKate]

The only time we took Oceania’s booked flight was back from Santiago. Our lie flat seats were angled flat seats. Kate is small and was OK. I kept sliding down the seat. That was before my iPhone was able to download and show my choice of movies so had nothing to do except try to fight gravity 

[osandomir]

28 minutes ago, ChadnKate said:

The only time we took Oceania’s booked flight was back from Santiago. Our lie flat seats were angled flat seats. Kate is small and was OK. I kept sliding down the seat. That was before my iPhone was able to download and show my choice of movies so had nothing to do except try to fight gravity 

I remember that seats flying into Buenos Aires years ago 😀

[2ws]

4mm on AA, current *A Gold. IMO flying to a cruise departing international should get you in the departure city the day before you embark. Air Pricing considerations in these times should include whether you use points, miles, or the cruise line flights. If you have an elite status with a carrier it is always worth getting the air diversion and flying with the Alliance you have status with if you go with the cruise line air. This will give you some extra padding. This has worked for us often. Once the airline takes over the ticket, the cruise line cannot help you with flying issues. You cannot predict these things. Sounds like you are comfortable with your connections and are getting in early. Good luck out there. Oh, also the farther out you book your air, the more likely the schedule will change. If the schedule changes you have the opportunity with most carriers to change your flights at no charge. You might check to see if that happened with your inbound. If so, free change. 

[edgee]

On 3/24/2023 at 11:37 AM, DCGuy64 said:

+1. The flight we're booked on took off on time and arrived 22 minutes early today, in fact. I think that when a passenger buys tickets on flights offered by the airline, then the airline is responsible for any delays, not the passenger.

Airline is "responsible" to eventually get you to your destination, but no guarantee that your eventual arrival will be compliant with your cruise travel plans. Thus the need to plan in a mode which will help avoid close connections and likely delays. 

[d9704011]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:10 AM, DCGuy64 said:

Thanks for the comments. All I can say is that, if I had to do it over again, I would prefer a longer connection. In 30+ years of traveling overseas, I have never had to connect through a Canadian airport. I've only ever flown to Canada directly (to Montreal and Quebec City), and I've never flown to Toronto. Anyway, I figure if AC is selling this itinerary, they must be able to get me there-our TA assured me as much. FWIW I spoke to our travel agent yesterday. The cost of changing flights is prohibitive (literally more $$ than the tickets cost in the first place, and we're not talking chump change, either-these are business class tickets that cost $11,000 for the two of us, and changing would cost MORE than that). So we're not making any changes. We will just go with the itinerary as planned. If we are delayed, so be it. But in the future, I would say that, all things being equal, I'd rather have more time, especially when flights have a poor on-time performance record. Thanks again for weighing in, we are so excited about this trip and I'm not going to waste any more negative energy worrying about things like this that I can't change.

I fly through YYZ often, connecting to international flights.  Personally, I think your connection times are OK.  If I had to connect to the USA, then I'd be worried!

[FlyerTalker]

I think this is a great warning about buying consolidator tickets (if that is what you have).  Your TA bought them and you are now stuck with the restrictive fare rules - mostly on "changing" your tickets.  Looking at the pricing you paid, I am going to believe that you actually cannot change the tickets, but would be buying completely new ones. There is no way that a simple change would more than double your costs.  Also, I have a suspicion that your TA is not savvy on air travel and simply bought what he could find for a discount.  Do you have a complete set of the fare rules for your ticket?  Is it a published fare ticket, or a bulk conso ticket?   And of course, actually posting your flights, dates and times helps to research this issue.

 

As for Tokyo - for further evidence that your TA wasn't thinking, you are coming in to NRT rather than HND.  Narita is at least an hour and a half further away from the cruise ports than Haneda - and there are plenty of flights from North America to HND, so that shouldn't have been an issue.  And finally, be certain which port your cruise departs from, as you could be in several different ones, either in Tokyo or Yokohama.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by FlyerTalker

[DCGuy64]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:16 PM, FlyerTalker said:

I think this is a great warning about buying consolidator tickets (if that is what you have).  Your TA bought them and you are now stuck with the restrictive fare rules - mostly on "changing" your tickets.  Looking at the pricing you paid, I am going to believe that you actually cannot change the tickets, but would be buying completely new ones. There is no way that a simple change would more than double your costs.  Also, I have a suspicion that your TA is not savvy on air travel and simply bought what he could find for a discount.  Do you have a complete set of the fare rules for your ticket?  Is it a published fare ticket, or a bulk conso ticket?   And of course, actually posting your flights, dates and times helps to research this issue.

 

As for Tokyo - for further evidence that your TA wasn't thinking, you are coming in to NRT rather than HND.  Narita is at least an hour and a half further away from the cruise ports than Haneda - and there are plenty of flights from North America to HND, so that shouldn't have been an issue.  And finally, be certain which port your cruise departs from, as you could be in several different ones, either in Tokyo or Yokohama.

 

 

Thanks for your comments. A lot of what you say isn't correct, but unfortunately I have a ridiculously busy week and don't have the time to respond fully. Thanks.

[FlyerTalker]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:37 AM, DCGuy64 said:

the consolidator might charge us a penalty to change the outbound flight,

 

So you do have a consolidator ticket.

 

On 3/23/2023 at 6:57 AM, DCGuy64 said:

Our TA booked this flight for us

 

Bought by your TA.

 

On 3/24/2023 at 5:10 AM, DCGuy64 said:

I spoke to our travel agent yesterday. The cost of changing flights is prohibitive (literally more $$ than the tickets cost in the first place, and we're not talking chump change, either-these are business class tickets that cost $11,000 for the two of us, and changing would cost MORE than that).

 

Indicating that the tickets have very restrictive fare rules.

 

On 3/28/2023 at 6:29 AM, DCGuy64 said:

I also don't want to spend an additional $12,000 to change my existing tickets and fly to Tokyo an extra day early, which is what that would cost me. What I want comes with an additional cost that I can't afford.

 

Which again is a part of the fare rules, that probably weren't fully explained to you at the start.

 

2 hours ago, DCGuy64 said:

Thanks for your comments. A lot of what you say isn't correct,

 

Your words tend to confirm what I wrote.

[DCGuy64]

3 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

So you do have a consolidator ticket.

 

 

Bought by your TA.

 

 

Indicating that the tickets have very restrictive fare rules.

 

 

Which again is a part of the fare rules, that probably weren't fully explained to you at the start.

 

 

Your words tend to confirm what I wrote.

Yeah, it's somewhat complicated, but the gist of it is that in order for us to AFFORD this trip in the first place, we bought a ticket that our TA found for us. I don't know how familiar you are with booking business class travel, but tickets are often extremely expensive. I've used a number of business class ticket sites to compare prices, and what we found was reasonable. For perspective, Oceania wanted to charge us an ADDITIONAL $6,000 apiece to upgrade us from Economy Class to Business. This was on top of the airfare component of our cruise ticket. We found a deal through the TA that was roughly $5,600 for each of us, so we went with that-and got a refund from O. The fare rules aren't at all what I'd call restrictive: they only charge a nominal fee to make changes, but the new price of the fares come into play. That is consistent with what I've found when booking DIRECTLY with the airlines. There's no huge penalty for changing the dates, but you do have to pay whatever the new price is. That's the $12,000 I talked about earlier. The price to fly from DC to Tokyo is vastly more expensive now than it was back in October when we booked. Our TA is great, and he often buys tickets from consolidators, and that's never been a problem: last year when we had to delay our return to the US from Spain for a week due to my wife catching Covid, we were only charged $50 per person to change the business class fare. So we are perfectly content to have the TA do the legwork for us and anticipate doing that in the future. Having said all of that, we are very happy with our itinerary. This cruise is going to be quite the adventure for us and we can't wait. ☺️

[DCGuy64]

On 4/1/2023 at 5:16 PM, FlyerTalker said:

s for Tokyo - for further evidence that your TA wasn't thinking, you are coming in to NRT rather than HND.  Narita is at least an hour and a half further away from the cruise ports than Haneda - and there are plenty of flights from North America to HND, so that shouldn't have been an issue.  And finally, be certain which port your cruise departs from, as you could be in several different ones, either in Tokyo or Yokohama.

Flights to HND vs NRT are far more expensive and we are fine with flying to Narita. We're getting in a day early so the extra travel time from the airport is not an issue. We have the final documents from the cruise line showing which port we're sailing from. No offense intended here, but our travel agent is a personal friend and suggesting he "wasn't thinking" is rather insulting. We've had him plan our trips for years and have never been anything other than 100% satisfied with his service.

[Nashna]

DCGuy64... From a Haymarket, Virginia neighbor (who is also a 30-year retired travel agency manager), don't sweat it.  The weather forecast on Monday is outstanding, no storms are predicted, so you should have easy flying out of Dulles.  Since your flights are set in stone, I advise you to get off this post, finish packing, and don't let the "what ifs" spoil your pre-trip excitement.  Have a wonderful vacation.  Please come back and let us know how well you did!