Celebrity Retreat vs. Seabourn

[Mr Luxury]

Included wines on all ships can change and vary from cruise to cruise.

There will always be the usual favourites that are popular and they will always go out of stock first. 

Bar managers buy local wines wherever the ship might be and they will not ever appear on a list.

I hear people moaning about the included wines as they are usually drinking better wine at home.

Cruise lines will not improve the wine situation with the included list as they get a good price point that they can work with to make things pay.

I don't want to moan about wine on a ship and I do drink excellent wines at home and I have a very good stocked cellar.

The only option if you can't find a decent wine that you like on the included list is to buy from the revenue list.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Mr Luxury

[AmateurGO]

But, it the ship can have a printed list of the optional wines (which probably change more often than the included ones), why can't they have a list of the included wines?  Better yet, have them all on the same list with the appropriate prices (or lack thereof) so we can make a more informed decision.   On the other hand, I can think of several reasons they might not want to do that, mostly having to do with maximizing the revenue.  

I guess my problem is that, all too often, I got the impression on the Encore that their actions were oriented toward maximizing revenue, rather than maximizing customer satisfaction as other ships/lines have seemed to focus on.  Perhaps that is just my impression, or perhaps it is the Encore (which I had other issues with) or perhaps it is Seabourn.  Not having been on any other Seabourn ships, I can't say.  

[Mr Luxury]

2 minutes ago, AmateurGO said:

But, it the ship can have a printed list of the optional wines (which probably change more often than the included ones), why can't they have a list of the included wines?  Better yet, have them all on the same list with the appropriate prices (or lack thereof) so we can make a more informed decision.   On the other hand, I can think of several reasons they might not want to do that, mostly having to do with maximizing the revenue.  

I guess my problem is that, all too often, I got the impression on the Encore that their actions were oriented toward maximizing revenue, rather than maximizing customer satisfaction as other ships/lines have seemed to focus on.  Perhaps that is just my impression, or perhaps it is the Encore (which I had other issues with) or perhaps it is Seabourn.  Not having been on any other Seabourn ships, I can't say.  

I think that you just have issues.

I won't spend too much time trying to work out which permutation it is.

[lincslady]

I have never had any problem with finding something reasonably enjoyable to drink on board any of the four Odyssey class ships I have cruised on; admittedly I am (no longer) an imbiber of really good wines, but just trying what is on offer, and then asking for something else - usually by quoting a grape varietal and/or a part of the world it might come from if I don't care for it will get something I find palatable.  Then I end up with a few whites and reds I can choose from, within a few days of boarding.

[AmateurGO]

I freely admit that I have "issues"...  

Since this thread is supposed to be about Celebrity Retreat vs Seabourn, I'll just say that the wine list is only one of several "issues" I had on the Encore.  Perhaps it is how you define "luxury" (and this is not really aimed at you, Mr Luxury) but I define it as being made to feel comfortable, relaxed, among friends, and somewhat pampered,  and I got more of this feeling in the Celebrity Beyond environment than I did on the Encore.  We do enjoy a different kind of service/environment than many people: we very much enjoy the friendliness and informality of the classical Club Med resorts (for those who have been to one) and are somewhat uncomfortable at 5-star resorts such as Ritz Carlton.

Everyone has "issues" and the people who don't think they do, have the biggest ones of all.

[johng75370]

44 minutes ago, AmateurGO said:

I define it as being made to feel comfortable, relaxed, among friends, and somewhat pampered,

I do too, and have found Seabourn delivers that easily, while our few (3) Retreat experiences on Celebrity have not really made us feel that way.  While we’ve had butlers on Celebrity have never seen them again; I deeply appreciate having cabin attendants we’ve seen across multiple voyages on Seabourn who we delight in reconnecting with. Likewise fellow passengers. When I go on Celebrity I don’t expect to see anyone I’ve met before; with Seabourn it’s entirely the opposite.  I’ve put it down to big ship versus small ship, and expect over time to continue dipping toes into both waters; just have yet to find that big ship delivers the comfortable and personal experience a smaller ship (and line) does.  

[AmateurGO]

That is probably the biggest thing we missed on the Celebrity Beyond, reconnecting with crew from past cruises.  Since this was our first Seabourn cruise, we naturally could not "reconnect", although we did make true friends with a couple of the crew that we'd love to see again.  This is one reason we like Wind Star ships, they are small enough, and the "fleet" is small enough that we always saw crew members that we had sailed with before.  It is a good feeling when you walk up to the restaurant manager the first evening and they call you by name and say "welcome back" with a smile and handshake.  We'll be in a Wind Start cruise in about a month and it will be interesting to see how many people we know.

 

[johng75370]

15 minutes ago, AmateurGO said:

Since this was our first Seabourn cruise, we naturally could not "reconnect", although we did make true friends with a couple of the crew that we'd love to see again.

The first time we went on Seabourn people told us “the next time you go onboard you’ll know both crew and other passengers”.  Still cannot believe how true that has been.  No doubt there are people who are on Celebrity often enough to get that, but it is pretty much baked-in to the Seabourn experience.  Likewise Windstar, Seadream, etc….  Of course, some of the Windstar ships are the original Seabourn (Legend, Pride, Spirit (Breeze)). 

Edited July 31, 2023 by johng75370

[AmateurGO]

Yes, we'll be going on a cruise on the (now) Wind Star "Star Pride" in a month.  This will be our first cruise on a "non-sailing" Wind Star ship.   Soon after Wind Star got the three former Seaborn ships, they went and expanded them by 50 cabins.  Some of us complained about this since we were explicitly after the "small ship" feeling.

Perhaps I should explain how we ended up on the Celebrity Beyond to begin with....  We had scheduled a cruise/tour with Celebrity in the Galapagos Islands and Machu Picchu when Covid struck.  We ended up taking a 125% future cruise credit and, after we finally did go on the cruise/tour, we had a $5000 credit remaining on Celebrity.  We decided the best way to use that credit was in the Retreat section.  (In the Galapagos Islands, the Celebrity Flora was the maximum size allowed, 100 passengers, and it was a delight.)

[Mr Luxury]

It is always difficult having just one cruise on a particular line.

You don't feel at home like you do on a ship or line that you have sailed a few times before.

I would persevere on your quest for a comfortable small ship experience.

I have sailed on the Pride probably thirty times when Seabourn owned her.

Mu favourite was always the Seabourn Legend. 

Try another Seabourn cruise but this time I would recommend the Sojourn.

Happy cruising.

[stan01]

17 hours ago, AmateurGO said:

Yes, we'll be going on a cruise on the (now) Wind Star "Star Pride" in a month.  This will be our first cruise on a "non-sailing" Wind Star ship.   Soon after Wind Star got the three former Seaborn ships, they went and expanded them by 50 cabins.  Some of us complained about this since we were explicitly after the "small ship" feeling.

 

Have you considered SeaDream Yacht Club which operates the former Cunard Sea Goddess and Seabourn Goddess I/II small ships?  112 pax and 95 crew small ships owned by the original founder of Seabourn (before it was bought by Carnival).  Since you like Club Med and casual but classy it might be a fit.  Biggest downside of the hard product is the cabins do not have balconies since the ships were built in 1984/1985.  They have aged well in our opinion but obviously not new.  There is plenty of outdoor deck space to make up for not having balconies, and the service and other soft product features are outstanding along with a higher percentage of non-American passengers especially on European itineraries.  Itineraries visit the small ports like Windstar that Seabourn no longer goes to (such as St. Tropez, Korcula, Jost Van Dyke and Virgin Gorda).  Cheaper and smaller than the new Ritz Carlton's ships too which is where are at if you want smaller than Seabourn and modern luxury.

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by stan01

[cruiseej]

12 hours ago, Mr Luxury said:

Try another Seabourn cruise but this time I would recommend the Sojourn.

Another tangential question: I'm always interested why people recommend a specific ship in the fleet. Sojourn and Quest (leaving out Odyssey, which will be leaving the fleet next year) are virtual twins, as are Ovation and Encore. I've been under the impression that crew members move around a fair amount among the ships. So if the ships are nearly identical, and the crew members you've met are likely to be scattered among the ships, what leads to one recommending a specific ship? Do a lot of crew, and particularly senior managers, actually mostly return to the same ship on contract after contract? Or is there something else? Just curious.

[frantic36]

2 hours ago, cruiseej said:

Another tangential question: I'm always interested why people recommend a specific ship in the fleet. Sojourn and Quest (leaving out Odyssey, which will be leaving the fleet next year) are virtual twins, as are Ovation and Encore. I've been under the impression that crew members move around a fair amount among the ships. So if the ships are nearly identical, and the crew members you've met are likely to be scattered among the ships, what leads to one recommending a specific ship? Do a lot of crew, and particularly senior managers, actually mostly return to the same ship on contract after contract? Or is there something else? Just curious.

 

The senior staff have usually stayed more with one particular ship Ie Sojourn it is/was Captain Hamish Elliot and Captain Tim Davies but on our cruise coming up there is a Captain I don't know I am not sure why not Captain Tim. HD, CD and GSM used to stay but as well but again there is now more change. Apparently the new HD coming onboard Sojourn soon is ex-Crystal which will be interesting. 

 

So if you believe the concept that the ambience of the ship is led by senior staff then that was why I think you will see people recommend certain ships. That seems to be more likely to change now as new senior staff are hired, whether it reverts again in a year or so we will see. Just my thoughts and opinion.

 

Julie

[cruiseej]

Thanks, Julie. I imagine the entry of new ships — like Pursuit currently, and Venture a year ago — has to shake up the staffing, up and down the ranks, somewhat. As will the departure of Odyssey next year. (But after that, it seems like Seabourn is in for a pretty looonnnngg period of stability, with no new ships on order. 😉)

[saminina]

Yes, until recently Sojourn had reliable senior staff repeating.  That was not the case with past holiday season cruise.   A total mess and barely a familiar face among crew.....and passengers.  I've written enough about it. 

 

[Mr Luxury]

6 hours ago, saminina said:

Yes, until recently Sojourn had reliable senior staff repeating.  That was not the case with past holiday season cruise.   A total mess and barely a familiar face among crew.....and passengers.  I've written enough about it. 

 

You have.

[Mr Luxury]

9 hours ago, stan01 said:

 

Have you considered SeaDream Yacht Club which operates the former Cunard Sea Goddess and Seabourn Goddess I/II small ships?  112 pax and 95 crew small ships owned by the original founder of Seabourn (before it was bought by Carnival).  Since you like Club Med and casual but classy it might be a fit.  Biggest downside of the hard product is the cabins do not have balconies since the ships were built in 1984/1985.  They have aged well in our opinion but obviously not new.  There is plenty of outdoor deck space to make up for not having balconies, and the service and other soft product features are outstanding along with a higher percentage of non-American passengers especially on European itineraries.  Itineraries visit the small ports like Windstar that Seabourn no longer goes to (such as St. Tropez, Korcula, Jost Van Dyke and Virgin Gorda).  Cheaper and smaller than the new Ritz Carlton's ships too which is where are at if you want smaller than Seabourn and modern luxury.

 

I'll be in St Tropez on the Pursuit at the end of August.

[SLSD]

16 hours ago, stan01 said:

 

Have you considered SeaDream Yacht Club which operates the former Cunard Sea Goddess and Seabourn Goddess I/II small ships?  112 pax and 95 crew small ships owned by the original founder of Seabourn (before it was bought by Carnival).  Since you like Club Med and casual but classy it might be a fit.  Biggest downside of the hard product is the cabins do not have balconies since the ships were built in 1984/1985.  They have aged well in our opinion but obviously not new.  There is plenty of outdoor deck space to make up for not having balconies, and the service and other soft product features are outstanding along with a higher percentage of non-American passengers especially on European itineraries.  Itineraries visit the small ports like Windstar that Seabourn no longer goes to (such as St. Tropez, Korcula, Jost Van Dyke and Virgin Gorda).  Cheaper and smaller than the new Ritz Carlton's ships too which is where are at if you want smaller than Seabourn and modern luxury.

 

I've noticed that Sea Dream does quite a few charters.  We are always getting brochures about cruises with them from the University of Texas alumni group.  

[Mr Luxury]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

I've noticed that Sea Dream does quite a few charters.  We are always getting brochures about cruises with them from the University of Texas alumni group.  

I went on them when they were owned by Cunard and Seabourn.

They are very small. 

The toilet in the suite is not for the larger guest.😁

[AmateurGO]

I don't mind if the ship is small (in fact, I like that) as long as the stateroom (and the toilet) is a reasonable size.  The smallest cruise ship (in terms of number of passengers) we have been on is the Celebrity Flora, which makes it's hone in the Galapagos Islands.  Those staterooms were very nice, well laid out and significantly larger than the staterooms/suites we had on the Celebrity Beyond or the Encore.  At 100 passengers, it is the largest size ship allowed in the Galapagos. 

[lincslady]

The Seadream cabins are very small, and funnily enough the worst thing is the bathroom - I would say you could not use the toilet easily if you were unusually tall or heavy.  Very little space.

 

 

[DrSHF]

On 7/29/2023 at 4:05 PM, markham said:

Not sure that the “ship within a ship” wedge can work on a <600 person ship (and note that Ody class ships are 450 to boot). That model is a margin grab for the mass market large ships that are trying to have it all by pretending they can duplicate the ambiance of Seabourn. Mass market is just that, no matter how you shine up its top decks with “perks”.

 

Another point: what is this “discarded” ships from Seabourn nonsense? The 3 original sisters were sold off some years ago to Windstar but that is the end of the original Seabourn brand story.

 

If you do have some information about Seabourn’s product strategy eg new ships I would like to hear it.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

Re: Discarded ships. You are forgetting the Seabourn Sun—which was a lovely ship.  

[Hobar]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:15 PM, AmateurGO said:

we very much enjoy the friendliness and informality of the classical Club Med resorts (for those who have been to one) 

I have. It was the one in Martinique. The year was 1976. Disco was big and it was a blast.  

[AmateurGO]

Things have calmed down at the Club Meds in the past few years.  They have mellowed along with the aging of the typical guest (GM).  (My screen name refers to my status as a Amateur GO, having been to CM so many times.)  Oh, the many stories we have to tell.......

[Mrs_Tiki]

We returned to Celebrity after the post-COVID startup after cruising the “discarded Seabourn ships” now in the Windstar and SeaDream fleets 2015-2019. We found the Retreat experience (on Edge class ships) elevated from our prior Celebrity cruises, but not quite on par with the smaller ships. But far easier for us to get to Fort Lauderdale than their embarkations ports and there was some appeal to the variety of dining and entertainment options on the larger ships.

 

But now that Retreat pricing has gone through the roof, we are thinking that we will return to SeaDream. Especially when I can book a 7-day cruise AND Economy Comfort airfare to St. Maarten for less than the cost of just the cruise in the Retreat on Edge class!