New Ships

[Whipsnade]

I agree with Berlin and disagree somewhat with Noggins. 
Deck Seven is perfect for many, especially for singles and others for whom a veranda is not a must. Certainly I agree no matter how good the restaurants on board are land based restaurants can be (not always) better. We always seek them out and compare to Waterside. Not infrequently Waterside wins out over Michelin caliber shoreside venues. A good game for us. But the ship restaurants on all the other “luxury” ships are repetitive and boring after ten days. Crystal is the exception not the rule. 
As far as Explora is concerned they do have the most beautiful well designed ship currently at sea. But with  the product they have they are seeking a much younger crowd and I contend this does not exist in sufficient numbers to fill two ships let alone six. Someone did not do their homework. Those 45 to 60 year olds simply do not have the time and money to make the brand profitable. Think TAs, “influencers” and discount prices. While Crystal is seeking 60 to 90 year olds with tons of money in their 401s and no more kids to educate or mtges to pay. And they are in good health!  The latter market is where the real coin exists. Enter Crystal. 

[BWIVince]

31 minutes ago, ctjon said:

I have traveled on deck 7 a couple of times - many of the occupants on 7 were entertainers and lecturers.   Wonder if they will get balcony cabins or will they still keep special cabins (not available to public) for them.. 

 

That usually varies by their agreement.  Serenity has guest entertainers that occupy the deck 5 staterooms (not sold like Symphony's), and others that sometimes get revenue staterooms of various categories.  It just depends on the specifics of their deal, and probably would on the new ship(s).

 

Vince

[BWIVince]

1 hour ago, Whipsnade said:

I agree with Berlin and disagree somewhat with Noggins. 
Deck Seven is perfect for many, especially for singles and others for whom a veranda is not a must. Certainly I agree no matter how good the restaurants on board are land based restaurants can be (not always) better. We always seek them out and compare to Waterside. Not infrequently Waterside wins out over Michelin caliber shoreside venues. A good game for us. But the ship restaurants on all the other “luxury” ships are repetitive and boring after ten days. Crystal is the exception not the rule. 
As far as Explora is concerned they do have the most beautiful well designed ship currently at sea. But with  the product they have they are seeking a much younger crowd and I contend this does not exist in sufficient numbers to fill two ships let alone six. Someone did not do their homework. Those 45 to 60 year olds simply do not have the time and money to make the brand profitable. Think TAs, “influencers” and discount prices. While Crystal is seeking 60 to 90 year olds with tons of money in their 401s and no more kids to educate or mtges to pay. And they are in good health!  The latter market is where the real coin exists. Enter Crystal. 

 

This isn't a disagreement, just more of a commentary...  Reading that part about the age really struck me about how history does indeed rhyme, as the old saying goes.

 

Crystal's original demographic in the late 1980's, when marketing started, was ~45-59.  

 

Part of the reason they shifted markets to the luxury segment was because they saw the upper premium segment getting crowded, and they saw more opportunity in the luxury market, where there wasn't a line for every demographic yet.  You primarily had luxury small ships with very limited amenities, you had Royal Viking with the over-60 crowd, and you had Cunard with different ships in different market, each with different customer bases.  Crystal's value proposition was to take a ship of roughly RVL's scope, but turn it on its ear by offering completely different amenities that would attract 45-59 year olds that didn't feel they were a fit on RVL.  I happen to have Crystal's second inaugural season brochure here on my desk, and it focuses on how active and diverse the onboard offerings are, including:

• A 360-degree promenade deck "specifically designed for running" (there was no seating on there originally, unlike many competitors)
• An indoor/outdoor pool that people can swim in rain or shine
• A swim-up pool bar
• A computerized golf simulator (these weren't wildly successful with any demographic, but younger golfers seemed to be more enthusiastic about these than older golfers at the time)
• A large, modern fitness facility including a dedicated aerobics facility
• Skeet shooting at the fantail
• Shows with current hit broadway content instead of focusing mainly on generational favorites like RVL
• Ethnic-themed alternative dining instead of the "mens club grill room" concept that the legacy lines were catering with at the time.

 

Other lines had some of these things, but aside from the skeet shooting, none of them had these things quite like Crystal was pitching.  You can imagine what the Royal Viking Star's fitness center looked like in 1989, when this was printed.  Royal Viking Sun had some more of these (like a decent fitness center and a golf simulator), but the execution wasn't the same and came off with a completely different focus on a different demographic.

 

...And it worked!  My parents were in their late 40's when Crystal launched, and this totally appealed to them.  Our first cruise with Crystal was filled with passengers around their age, of course with other passengers of all ages filling in the margins.

 

So what happened?  As Crystal grew, it acquired the legacy passengers from the other lines (especially as the other lines folded and they looked for new homes), and Crystal's own original customer base aged.  My parents sailed many, many lines, but they continued to also sail Crystal until they both passed.  

 

I don't think that in any way discounts the opportunity in the 45-59 luxury market.  I think there IS wisdom in focusing on the 60+ group that has more time and disposable income to travel, BUT Explora isn't the first line to see opportunity in launching a new line (especially while they have fewer ships) in a "starter" base that is currently underserved.  I can make a case for both -- as could Crystal.

 

Vince

Edited May 30 by BWIVince

[Whipsnade]

Well put and well reasoned. Also good recollection of luxury cruise history. 
Many RVL pax migrated to Crystal when Crystal became “the best” and RVL went  kaput. 
The one dynamic you left out is longevity. Back then you were pretty much dead by late 70s and certainly by 80. Now many pax (including us) are in our mid 80s and still quite active. We are booked into 26 and hope to still be cruising into early 90s. We can do most things the 50 year olds can do but it just takes us a little longer. This age group didn’t really exist back then and there were no windfalls from 401s back then. So we have the health and the money and we love the service we get in ships. We should be a major target market for the next cohort of luxury ships that I hope are now being planned. 

[Keith1010]

Vince, I very much appreciate your posts including the historical ones.

 

Reminded me of some early observations and how the product evolved.

 

For us we first sailed in 2002 which I know is not as early as you did.  So, by the time we sailed many of the former Royal Viking guests had switched over to Crystal and we knew quite a few of them for many years. They would tell us many a story about the line. Same for some of the crew who came from there.

 

Crystal truly evolved as you have mentioned.  In 2002 they still charged for soda and bottled water.  And some in the industry said a ship with indoor rooms as Harmony had was not a luxury line.  But as you noted that was not the original concept for Crystal.

 

In 2023 they included soda and bottled water. I remember this having two children with us both years and the first year with a teenager there were quite a few sodas on the room account.  😃

 

For us one of the positives in making our decision was that we could put the kids in an inside room on Harmony. 

 

Switching gears pricing.

 

In the end it is the economy that is a big driver of this.

 

No different than land based stores and restaurants and most products the economy is the major driver.

 

And the more people who benefit from the economy creates even more demand for certain products.  

 

I remember we booked our second Crystal cruise for 2003 before we took the first one in 2002 and there was the tech bust which allowed us to get a reduction in fares for 2003.

 

Who can forget 2009 and 2010 driven by what happened in the second half of 2008.  Price reductions and ships sailing with lower occupancy and hotel prices dropping and a great time as I know to have bought a car. Never in my life got such a reduction of sticker price.  I remember around that time is when Seabourn came out with three new ships in successive years to replace the 200 passenger triplets.

 

With the economic roller coaster comes employment, unemployment, inflation, deflation, and let us not forget Sara, Covid, and several others which impacted pricing.

 

And sadly wars and terrorism.

 

And if you want to wonder about the future AI?  If one thought the internet was a game changer we haven't seen nothing yet with AI and its impact on the economy, the workplace, and on pretty much everything including travel. 

 

Stay tuned.

 

Time will tell.

 

Excited about a new ship(s) along with Symphony and Serenity.

 

Keith

[ctjon]

We all are still responsible for names for the new ships aen't we?

[Whipsnade]

Before we all get too excited about new ships let’s look back to last July when Levis announced plans to “begin construction on one new ocean ship and one expedition ship by the second quarter of 2024”. Oh wait, the second quarter is almost over and not even an announcement of a contract let alone begin construction. And we all know every major yard is chock a block with new builds for other lines for the next couple of years. So we shouldn’t start saving our pennies for an Inaugural Cruise anytime soon. 
I know this will get some of you in a snit but it is reality. I doubt we will see a new Crystal ship until 2030. At the earliest. 

[BWIVince]

16 minutes ago, Whipsnade said:

Before we all get too excited about new ships let’s look back to last July when Levis announced plans to “begin construction on one new ocean ship and one expedition ship by the second quarter of 2024”. Oh wait, the second quarter is almost over and not even an announcement of a contract let alone begin construction. And we all know every major yard is chock a block with new builds for other lines for the next couple of years. So we shouldn’t start saving our pennies for an Inaugural Cruise anytime soon. 
I know this will get some of you in a snit but it is reality. I doubt we will see a new Crystal ship until 2030. At the earliest. 

We might be getting a little too granular…. In fairness to Ms. Levis, in industry terminology, “begin construction” is more often than not considered signing an MOU, MOI or a firm contract, since that’s when the heavy lift on the design phase begins and you start receiving firm deliverables.  Cutting steel is usually distinctly referred to as such, and (for a major ocean vessel) happens a couple years after you “begin construction” — which is a marked difference with house construction where nothing seems to count until you break ground.
 

To your point though, the ships will be a ways away.  I expect we’d see the first expedition ship first, for a laundry list of reasons, which would put us at around 2027/2028 for the first ocean ship.  They seem pretty far into the ocean ship project though, based on the details shared, so who knows, they may be further ahead than expected or already have agreements and be on track.  A June announcement under contract would still be consistent with her original comment, but it doesn’t mean a new ocean ship is right around the corner.

 

Vince

[AveSaloon]

55 minutes ago, BWIVince said:

which would put us at around 2027/2028 for the first ocean ship.

 

Not worried at all about what any new ship will be like.  Just hoping that I'll be around in 2028 to have the problem of whether or not I like the "New New Crystal".

 

(Cue the joke about buying green bananas)

[Keith1010]

2 hours ago, Whipsnade said:

Before we all get too excited about new ships let’s look back to last July when Levis announced plans to “begin construction on one new ocean ship and one expedition ship by the second quarter of 2024”. Oh wait, the second quarter is almost over and not even an announcement of a contract let alone begin construction. And we all know every major yard is chock a block with new builds for other lines for the next couple of years. So we shouldn’t start saving our pennies for an Inaugural Cruise anytime soon. 
I know this will get some of you in a snit but it is reality. I doubt we will see a new Crystal ship until 2030. At the earliest. 

My memory is not as good as it used to be and I do pride myself on my memory.

 

I never heard that construction would begin in 2nd quarter of 2024 and I did a search and don't see where that was mentioned by Cristina Levis.

 

Keith

[Whipsnade]

Travel Weekly and other pubs. July 23. 

[Whipsnade]

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/With-expansion-Crystal-has-plan-to-fill-new-ships

[Keith1010]

4 minutes ago, Whipsnade said:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/With-expansion-Crystal-has-plan-to-fill-new-ships

Thank you.

 

On a related note someone had posted that they plan to share information next month and that is 2Q 2024 so we will see what  is said next month.

 

 

Keith

[TRIPACIAN]

8 minutes ago, Keith1010 said:

Thank you.

 

On a related note someone had posted that they plan to share information next month and that is 2Q 2024 so we will see what  is said next month.

 

 

Keith

They said at the Q & A that an announcement would be made by the end of June.  Contract details are being finalized.  They are building two ships now, one for the Amazon and the other for the Nile.  This may be for A & K but could be sailing under the Crystal name.  This was somewhat confusing and wasn’t really elaborated on in the Q & A.

[Whipsnade]

A Nile boat and an Amazon boat are not even ships. I stand by my prediction there will not be a new Crystal ship, ocean or expedition before 2030. 

[Noggins]

5 minutes ago, Whipsnade said:

I stand by my prediction there will not be a new Crystal ship, ocean or expedition before 2030. 

Which is why two Italian families need to get together over a large bowl of spag bol and agree that family 1 sell 2 arguably unecessary ships to family 2 and agree that family 1 have 1st dibs on the tik tok generation cruise market whilst family 2 have 1st dibs on the market with the ageing tickers........

First family to reach profitability wins a Ferrari. 

[Whipsnade]

From your lips to God’s ear. 
I agree wholeheartedly. Wouldn’t if could be wonderful if AK/Crystal could pick up the four hulls the other family has on order at a good price?  

[skybluewaters]

Family 1 and family 2?

Four hulls?

I have no idea what this means...please elaborate

[Whipsnade]

Family 1 are Italian owners of MSC and subsidiary Explora. Family 2, also Italian are half owners of Crystal and former owner of Silversea. Both families have deep pockets although family 1 has a pocket so derp there is no bottom. 
Hulls are what we call ships as they are being built before they are far enough along to be called ships. 

[Keith1010]

1 hour ago, TRIPACIAN said:

They said at the Q & A that an announcement would be made by the end of June.  Contract details are being finalized.  They are building two ships now, one for the Amazon and the other for the Nile.  This may be for A & K but could be sailing under the Crystal name.  This was somewhat confusing and wasn’t really elaborated on in the Q & A.

Thank you.  I had thought you had posted about this. 
 

I also thought the same about the A&K ships.

 

Keith

[MsCrystalina]

There are many river boats, I sailed the Nile on a very luxurious one!  All luxury lines have expeditions vessels.  Why would Crystal need to add them??  They need new ocean-going ships; the old ones are for the most part not at full capacity.    If they are going into river boats and excursions, then I do not see any replacement for the aging ships for many years if the company survives.

[Whipsnade]

Ms C hits it on the head. 
Because of low pax counts on both ships they may be having difficulty getting financial commitments for new builds. When we were in Symphony this winter they only had 300 pax on one cruise. All the rest were 200 or less. An all  new luxury ship likely is close to a billion bucks. d’Ovidio has deep pockets but not that deep.  The Apontes own MSC and they have so much cash from their freight business they don’t need $$ from outside to build six Explora ships. 
Best idea was for Crystal to buy a couple of the Explora ships already contracted for at a good price. Apontes must realize by now their huge error in deciding to build six ships for a non existent market. 

[Stickman1990]

3 hours ago, Whipsnade said:

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/With-expansion-Crystal-has-plan-to-fill-new-ships

Certainly can’t argue with the strategy about getting new guests from the various sources - makes total sense. The execution of that by Crystal and all the other luxury lines is the big question

 

Does anyone really think Crystal Symphony will still be in the Crystal fleet in 2029? I think the journo has drawn the wrong conclusion on that one 

 

I also note the comment that travel advisers etc watched the fireworks on board - shouldn’t Whipsnade be giving us his usual blurb about cruise lines hosting TAs and influencers on board at this point if there’s any consistency in his argument? 

[ryndam]

We're just enjoying the party as long as it lasts. When we walked off Symphony in Singapore in February 2020, we never expected that we would  ever be back onboard any Crystal ship ever again. Glad to have sailed again since December 2023. Glad we were made financially whole through this entire 4-year+ drama. We'll ride the Crystal waves till the ships, whether they be existing, proposed, repurposed, new or imagined, ain't no more.  🛳️🚢🚢🛳️

 

Rob

Edited May 31 by ryndam
typo

[Whipsnade]

Word I get is there are plenty of TAs and “influencers” on Explora. Only TAs I saw on Symphony this winter were paying Family and Friends rate. Nary an “influencer” in sight. 
Sure hope Symphony will be around in 29. My favorite ship. If not, that would leave Crystal with one ship as there will not be a new Crystal ocean ship by then unless they buy one of the Explora hulls MSC will not be needing. 
How’s that Stick?  Enough to get you riled?