In case anyone wonders what happens if passengers are allowed onboard without the proper visas

[ontheweb]

Visa problems: Cruise ship with 1,500 passengers stuck in Spain's Barcelona | AP News

 

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

There is also a thread in Princess about someone whose MSC cruise was affected by this.

 

 

Edited April 4 by ontheweb
added second link

[Essiesmom]

Two threads on the MSC board.  EM

[Ferry_Watcher]

20 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

In Seattle (Pier 91), every passport that is collected because it has a required visa inside, is looked at three different times, by three different people before the ship sails.  First by the counter agent (who collects it); then by an 'experienced' lead/supervisor staffer; then finally by the Ship's Documentation Officer.  All this happens before the collected passports are transferred to the ship.  This is done so if there are any questions/problems, that there is still time to remove a passenger from the ship before it sails.  (Which has happened, although rarely).

[sparks1093]

40 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Visa problems: Cruise ship with 1,500 passengers stuck in Spain's Barcelona | AP News

 

I thought the people doing the checking in for cruises like @Ferry_Watcher were supposed to catch this sort of thing to prevent something like this happening. 

 

There is also a thread in Princess about someone whose MSC cruise was affected by this.

 

 

All port employees aren't created equal and nor, evidently, are the procedures used in port. I suspect that had the embarkation port been as thorough as outlined by @Ferry_Watcher this wouldn't have happened.

[Ferry_Watcher]

According to someone on the MSC board (who could translate a Spanish News Report), the Bolivians all booked their cruise thru the same travel agency, which also provided the fake visas.

 

 Post # 21 Bolivians had paid 9.000 euro to a travel agent for a cruise and a visa which was fake

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

 

In Seattle (Pier 91), every passport that is collected because it has a required visa inside, is looked at three different times, by three different people before the ship sails.  First by the counter agent (who collects it); then by an 'experienced' lead/supervisor staffer; then finally by the Ship's Documentation Officer.  All this happens before the collected passports are transferred to the ship.  This is done so if there are any questions/problems, that there is still time to remove a passenger from the ship before it sails.  (Which has happened, although rarely).

 

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

All port employees aren't created equal and nor, evidently, are the procedures used in port. I suspect that had the embarkation port been as thorough as outlined by @Ferry_Watcher this wouldn't have happened.

I think we would all agree if the checking at the originating port was more diligent, this would not have happened.

 

And if it true as a previous post said that the travel agency provided falso visas, that is really disturbing! 😒😢

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

According to someone on the MSC board (who could translate a Spanish News Report), the Bolivians all booked their cruise thru the same travel agency, which also provided the fake visas.

 

 Post # 21 Bolivians had paid 9.000 euro to a travel agent for a cruise and a visa which was fake

What training do you have where you could spot a visa that is not a real visa?

[sparks1093]

2 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

What training do you have where you could spot a visa that is not a real visa?

I was just going to ask the same thing. It might only be something that can be checked by accessing a database and they don't do that at embarkation.

[ontheweb]

5 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I was just going to ask the same thing. It might only be something that can be checked by accessing a database and they don't do that at embarkation.

Great minds think alike. 😉😉

[Essiesmom]

If you watch enough ‘To catch a smuggler’ on National Geographic channel, or similar, you will get an idea of what they are looking for in passports and visas.  EM

[Ferry_Watcher]

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

[sparks1093]

53 minutes ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

To be fair it does say on the State Department website to guard your expired passport since it is still proof of citizenship, at least it used to be there. Does sound like something I would do to test that but I'm glad that I no longer have to 🙂. (I just looked and it appears that this has been removed from the website.)

Edited April 4 by sparks1093

[Ferry_Watcher]

Yes, but if we allowed expired passports to be used as proof of citizenship, why would anyone renew their passport?  You could be using a 40 yr old passport with a photo of your 18 yr old self.  Or, maybe a super old passport that doesn't have the embedded chip that the machines can read.

 

Interestingly, we use to see more folks challenging documents (like trying to use expired passports) pre-pandemic, than we see today.  Not sure if those folks are just not traveling, or got put off traveling because some of the 'health' documents needed to board (2021-22), or whatever reason.  At the pier, we also don't take the time to engage with the debate, as there are about 75 people behind you wanting to get on the cruise ship. Rather than have a typical pier-side agent engage, the challenging passenger is walked over to the documentation area, away from the general embarking area.  Those folks have the time and resources to engage - and have the final word. 

[Mary229]

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. I do not know who covered her expenses.  We know the story as her husband, who stayed onboard, befriended us and told us the entire story.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Honestly, unless something seemed 'off', I don't know how I would recognize a fake visa, especially a well crafted one.  One time I was looking at a Canadian Visa, and something made me pause,  and I brought to to my supervisor who said it was fine.  I think what is was that I was so use to seeing the typical 'visitor' visa, that when I saw a different type (immigrant or employment visa), it just struck me a different, or for me, 'off'.  Anyway, the supervisor said it was fine and I embarked the passenger.

 

It's always good to check.

 

On a slightly different note, one day I was checking documents at the terminal entrance, and a older solo man handed me his US passport.  As soon as he put it in my hand, I knew that something was off.  Turns out it was an older (expired) passport and it had fewer pagers than current passports, so when I had my 'something is off' reaction, it was because the passport felt lighter.  He had never renewed his passport, but he was challenging me that even though it was expired, it still proved that he was a citizen.  He got walked over to the document area.  Later, I followed up with the document supervisor about the man, and she said that he had his US birth certificate all along, and he was just being obstinate.  He sailed using his US birth certificate.

I just don't understand why anyone who had the necessary documentation to board would give you a hassle. All it does is delay his boarding and everyone in the line behind him.

[CruisingAlong4Now]

The ship has been allowed to sail, albeit without these passengers.  They were "off-loaded" to an in-transit area, still not allowed to enter Spain.

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Ferry_Watcher said:

Yes, but if we allowed expired passports to be used as proof of citizenship, why would anyone renew their passport?  You could be using a 40 yr old passport with a photo of your 18 yr old self.  Or, maybe a super old passport that doesn't have the embedded chip that the machines can read.

 

Interestingly, we use to see more folks challenging documents (like trying to use expired passports) pre-pandemic, than we see today.  Not sure if those folks are just not traveling, or got put off traveling because some of the 'health' documents needed to board (2021-22), or whatever reason.  At the pier, we also don't take the time to engage with the debate, as there are about 75 people behind you wanting to get on the cruise ship. Rather than have a typical pier-side agent engage, the challenging passenger is walked over to the documentation area, away from the general embarking area.  Those folks have the time and resources to engage - and have the final word. 

Oh I absolutely get it. They probably removed that statement from the website because of that.

[ldubs]

3 hours ago, Mary229 said:

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. I do not know who covered her expenses.  We know the story as her husband, who stayed onboard, befriended us and told us the entire story.  

 

Yikes!  If I were the husband who stayed on board, I would be afraid to ever go home.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, CHPURSER said:

It is so easy to say that someone should have known better and checked more closely.

The people saying those things do not realize or understand that visa and passport rules can change from hour to hour and port to port - even in the same country.

A foreign flag ship calling at San Diego port has a completely different set of immigration rules than the same ship calling at the port of San Francisco. But not always. It depends on which Regional US Immigration Commander is in charge of those ports on that particular day.

Actually as we are in the so called information age, it is easier than ever to know the rules.

 

And since San Diego and San Francisco are both in the US, the same federal laws are going to apply. I don't know where you can get they can be different.

[MacMadame]

On 4/4/2024 at 11:00 AM, Mary229 said:

Not always does the ship get stuck. We had a Chinese national/ US green card on our ship last year.  When they reached Argentina the Argentines would not accept her digital visa, they required a physical paper copy for Chinese nationals.  She was taken off the ship, escorted to the airport and boarded on a flight back to the US. 

Why didn't they take her somewhere and have her print the document? Or did it need to come from China with some sort of seal on it?

[Mary229]

30 minutes ago, MacMadame said:

Why didn't they take her somewhere and have her print the document? Or did it need to come from China with some sort of seal on it?

It had to come from the Chinese embassy - official papers. 

[ldubs]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:22 AM, ontheweb said:

 

I think we would all agree if the checking at the originating port was more diligent, this would not have happened.

 

And if it true as a previous post said that the travel agency provided falso visas, that is really disturbing! 😒😢

 

Well, hindsight is always pretty accurate.   In this case, we should keep in mind the passengers paid a TA to among other things, provide a visa.  Most would feel reasonably satisfied they had been diligent in doing that.  How would they know the visa was a fake.  

[sfaaa]

It could be that the TA was a crook or the entire group conspired with TA to enter Europe illegally. Who knows.

[Mary229]

Just now, sfaaa said:

It could be that the TA was a crook or the entire group conspired with TA to enter Europe illegally. Who knows.

I have heard the theory that it was an elaborate scheme to illegal migrate to Europe - there has to be an easier and cheaper way to do that than cruising 

[Essiesmom]

Pure speculation on my part, but I suspect this TA has done this before, perhaps for not so large a group, but the visas were so good they have never been questioned.  Maybe some have been legit.  But I’m betting that somewhere within the group was someone whose visa application would not have been approved.  And just as from the US the manifest is submitted before departure, and further examined while the ship,is sailing.  That’s why in the US the occasional guest is escorted off in handcuffs upon return to port.

   But the scrutiny of the manifest, probably bu Spain or EU officials, picked up this individual who should have been denied.  Which led them to examine the others, and make the grand discovery.  And I’m betting also that MSC was informed midway in the cruise that these people could not be debarked, and were working feverishly for some resolution that would have avoided canceling the Rome departure.  
   And I would also bet that the people left stranded in Civitavecchia could have boarded downline in Messina, where she will be tomorrow.  EM