Is this discrimination

[Denarius]

4 hours ago, Denarius said:

All this seems very tedious. P&O overcomplicating things again? I sail mainly with another line. When I book I am asked whether I will be in need of any mobility assistance under any foreseeable circumstances during the cruise. I answer (truthfully) no, but should I have answered yes I presume that further questions would have been asked. My booking confirmation then includes a specific section headed "Assisance" which states (in my circumstances) "We confirm that you have declined any assistance throughout your cruise. We therefore confirm that you will make your own way on board the ship upon your arrival and are happy not to receive mobility assistance at any point during your cruise." Clear and simple.

To amplify my post, I believe that if the issue is so important (and I personally believe it to be so) then

Specific questions should be asked during the booking process before the booking is accepted by P&O

The answers given and the level of support which would be provided as a result should be specifically highlighted in the booking confirmation sent to the customer even if the answer (as in my case) is that no assistance is  requested or needed. This should be in a communication sent to the customer, the customer should not be expected to root around on a website to find it.

If this practice were followed any miscommunication should quickly come to light, allowing prompt action to be taken if necessary.

[Windsurfboy]

Interesting,  it reminds me of covid and being stuck in South Africa. 

Initially Cunard said they were not responsible for getting me home, even though they had cancelled cruise said it was my insurance company. My I insurance company  said no,  it was Cunards responsibility. They were helpful, sent me a letter to give to Cunard explaining the rules governing this, and telling them it was their responsibility. On receipt of the letter,  Cunard accepted responsibility. 

 

 

[Windsurfboy]

Megabear2 said that your insurance would not pay if your medical advisor said you were fit to travel. 

 

Fit to travel all depends on the circumstances.  If your leg was in plaster and you were going on a skiing holiday,  you would not be fit to travel.

 

So for a P&O cruise,  you would have to ask can I  climb 10 flights of stairs in X minutes unaided, if the answer was no then you would not be fit to travel. Ask the wrong question get the wrong answer

[cruising.mark.uk]

22 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

Ask the wrong question get the wrong answer

Exactly.  

And its very unwise to rely on a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.  In the type of circumstances being outlined - especially where an individual's mobility changes in the period between booking and travelling - it seems to me that the question that needs to be resolved is not whether a doctor gauged the individual as fit for travel or not.  Rather, what will need to be determined between the insurance company, the cruise line and the individual is how the individual should be reimbursed if the cruise line did not allow them to travel because to do so would breach their responsibilities under international maritime legal requirements to be able safely to evacuate all passengers in the event of an emergency.  I'm no maritime law expert, but if SOLAS and other regulations say that you need a certain number of crew members available to evacuate a mobility-challenged passenger and adding one such passenger to the mix close to boarding means that the ship on that sailing can no longer achieve that required ratio, then the cruise line (any cruise line, not just P&O) has no option other than to deny boarding.  

 

Such a late change in an individual's mobility making it impossible for the cruise line to accommodate them legally depends not one iota on whether a doctor says they are fit to travel.  And, it will apply irrespective of the methodology the cruise line uses for passengers to notify their mobility difficulties.   

 

Clearly, the passenger should be reimbursed in such circumstances - whether doing that should be the responsibility of the cruise line or an insurance company will doubtless be a discussion on a case-by-case basis.  My sense is that, while the cruise line might like to make the passenger right on a goodwill basis if the insurance company would not, the passenger would have more of a reasonable expectation that this would be an insurable risk than they would that the cruise line should breach international maritime law to let them board.  I'd suggest that international maritime law trumps a note from a doctor.  

[Megabear2]

2 hours ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

Exactly.  

And its very unwise to rely on a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question.  In the type of circumstances being outlined - especially where an individual's mobility changes in the period between booking and travelling - it seems to me that the question that needs to be resolved is not whether a doctor gauged the individual as fit for travel or not.  Rather, what will need to be determined between the insurance company, the cruise line and the individual is how the individual should be reimbursed if the cruise line did not allow them to travel because to do so would breach their responsibilities under international maritime legal requirements to be able safely to evacuate all passengers in the event of an emergency.  I'm no maritime law expert, but if SOLAS and other regulations say that you need a certain number of crew members available to evacuate a mobility-challenged passenger and adding one such passenger to the mix close to boarding means that the ship on that sailing can no longer achieve that required ratio, then the cruise line (any cruise line, not just P&O) has no option other than to deny boarding.  

 

Such a late change in an individual's mobility making it impossible for the cruise line to accommodate them legally depends not one iota on whether a doctor says they are fit to travel.  And, it will apply irrespective of the methodology the cruise line uses for passengers to notify their mobility difficulties.   

 

Clearly, the passenger should be reimbursed in such circumstances - whether doing that should be the responsibility of the cruise line or an insurance company will doubtless be a discussion on a case-by-case basis.  My sense is that, while the cruise line might like to make the passenger right on a goodwill basis if the insurance company would not, the passenger would have more of a reasonable expectation that this would be an insurable risk than they would that the cruise line should breach international maritime law to let them board.  I'd suggest that international maritime law trumps a note from a doctor.  

So we are back to Mr Edinburgh and I'm sorry this is a P&o rule and we don't cover that.  Sorry P... off ....

 

So are they actually telling these people sorry we won't carry you????

[S1971]

13 hours ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I'd suggest that international maritime law trumps a note from a doctor.  

 

I'd agree, but who takes responsibility for reimbursement is a difficult one.

 

Both would have reasonable arguments to refuse given their individual policies, if both refuse then only possible option is perhaps the County Court for a judgment?

[9265359]

22 hours ago, Denarius said:

All this seems very tedious. P&O overcomplicating things again? I sail mainly with another line. When I book I am asked whether I will be in need of any mobility assistance under any foreseeable circumstances during the cruise. I answer (truthfully) no, but should I have answered yes I presume that further questions would have been asked. My booking confirmation then includes a specific section headed "Assisance" which states (in my circumstances) "We confirm that you have declined any assistance throughout your cruise. We therefore confirm that you will make your own way on board the ship upon your arrival and are happy not to receive mobility assistance at any point during your cruise." Clear and simple.

 

The part I have bolded is interesting phrasing - Do they really mean "declined" as opposed to 'not required'.

 

On the cruise line you sail with, can someone 'decline' assistance and if someone 'declined' any assistance even though it was likely they would need it in an emergency, would the ship's crew say "bye" and simply let the passenger drown? I rather doubt it, and it is likely that they would put themselves at risk trying to evacuate the passenger even though they didn't have the staff numbers to do it.

 

Is that fair to the ship's crew putting them at that risk?

 

To reduce the risk to the crew and protect passengers from themselves, P&O seems to be taking the position that in some specific circumstances such as asking to rent a wheelchair during the cruise or turning up with an undeclared wheelchair, that whatever you say they consider that it is likely you will need mobility assistance in the event of an emergency and they won't let you board unless they have capacity for the crew to safely provide it without risk to themselves.

 

Is that a sensible approach - personally I would say yes.

 

 

[Windsurfboy]

This is very different to the previous situation when they stopped you boarding because you said you had a cough in the previous week. No evidence for insurance company. 

 

In this case it is much more obvious. 

 

1 Someone either turns up in a wheelchair when they said  they wanted no assistance. 

 

2 Or something happens,  they then are in a wheelchair tell P&O,  but all assistance places gone.

 

Case 1, hard luck

 

Case 2, should be an insurance claim, you are not fit to travel in a ship.

 

One thing situation 2 is not that rare must be a few each cruise. So perhaps P&O should not fill all assistance places as booking opens , but keep a few for this type of situation .

[davecttr]

56 minutes ago, Windsurfboy said:

This is very different to the previous situation when they stopped you boarding because you said you had a cough in the previous week. No evidence for insurance company. 

 

In this case it is much more obvious. 

 

1 Someone either turns up in a wheelchair when they said  they wanted no assistance. 

 

2 Or something happens,  they then are in a wheelchair tell P&O,  but all assistance places gone.

 

Case 1, hard luck

 

Case 2, should be an insurance claim, you are not fit to travel in a ship.

 

One thing situation 2 is not that rare must be a few each cruise. So perhaps P&O should not fill all assistance places as booking opens , but keep a few for this type of situation .

To complicate matters more? What happens if you sprain your ankle aboard, do they make you leave the ship at the next port, or maybe have an accident ashore, refuse to let you board when you return to the ship?

 

[S1971]

4 minutes ago, davecttr said:

To complicate matters more? What happens if you sprain your ankle aboard, do they make you leave the ship at the next port, or maybe have an accident ashore, refuse to let you board when you return to the ship?

 

 

This is exactly what I was thinking, I would assume they have to allow and leave some room for emergency situations. 

[yorkshirephil]

7 minutes ago, davecttr said:

To complicate matters more? What happens if you sprain your ankle aboard, do they make you leave the ship at the next port, or maybe have an accident ashore, refuse to let you board when you return to the ship?

 

I am sure they have contingency plans for this onboard. In my experience the onboard staff seem more amenable to common sense than land based staff. I am now thinking that this is getting blown out of proportion and we are looking for problems when they may not exist. I will be taking my walking poles when we go as they are sports equipment and not mobility aids. Fortunately they are hollow and I recon I can get a good half litre of rum in each one😉 thus killing two birds with one stone.

[jeanlyon]

19 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

Megabear2 said that your insurance would not pay if your medical advisor said you were fit to travel. 

 

Fit to travel all depends on the circumstances.  If your leg was in plaster and you were going on a skiing holiday,  you would not be fit to travel.

 

So for a P&O cruise,  you would have to ask can I  climb 10 flights of stairs in X minutes unaided, if the answer was no then you would not be fit to travel. Ask the wrong question get the wrong answer

The majority of cruisers couldn't climb a flight of stairs as can be seen from the number who use the lift to go down one floor!!

[Megabear2]

11 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

I am sure they have contingency plans for this onboard. In my experience the onboard staff seem more amenable to common sense than land based staff. I am now thinking that this is getting blown out of proportion and we are looking for problems when they may not exist. I will be taking my walking poles when we go as they are sports equipment and not mobility aids. Fortunately they are hollow and I recon I can get a good half litre of rum in each one😉 thus killing two birds with one stone.

The trouble is that for the OP the problem did exist.  My devil's advocate question about insurance cover was simply that, to highlight there is a very grey area with the situation.  Most of the stories hitting the press are due to the passengers not filling in the forms and unfortunately that's their own fault.  I don't doubt for one moment that in my pretend scenario pressure could be put on the insurer to get them to pay out but that would most likely end up being time consuming and stressful for the person involved.  

 

On the other hand if P&O are applying very strict rules the information should be in plain and simple language. The current form is confusing to many. For instance, while walking sticks etc are mobility aids most people do not have that description spring to mind and may not believe they need to complete the form in such a way that one to one assistance is required, and yet that apparently is what P&O feel is the minimum level that walking stick users should request.

 

I have looked back at the form provided to us by Celebrity for our December cruise.  It is far better and more importantly easy to understand.

Celebrity-Guest-Special-Needs-Form.pdf

[Gettingwarmer]

11 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

For instance, while walking sticks etc are mobility aids most people do not have that description spring to mind and may not believe they need to complete the form in such a way that one to one assistance is required, and yet that apparently is what P&O feel is the minimum level that walking stick users should request.

For walking stick users one to one assistance is recommended but it is not mandatory. Most occasional stick users would not require it. 
 

https://www.pocruises.com/accessibility/emergencies-and-other-information

 

Emergency assistance

There are two different types of emergency assistance:

• An evacuation chair – for example, you would be unable to use the stairs due to mobility or other circumstances. For anyone bringing a wheelchair or mobility scooter, this is a mandatory requirement.
• One-to-one assistance – if you need someone to guide and steady you on the stairs due to mobility or other circumstance, this is a mandatory requirement. For anyone bringing a mobility aid, like a walking stick or walker, this is recommended.

Edited May 18 by Gettingwarmer

[zap99]

1 hour ago, jeanlyon said:

The majority of cruisers couldn't climb a flight of stairs as can be seen from the number who use the lift to go down one floor!!

On Arvia the lifts were pretty much empty. If the lift stopped and folk got in to go up, or down a floor or 2, why should that bother me, or anyone else. Getting back on board some folk needed 3 crew members to push them up the gangway. They expected  everyone else to give them priority and the crew to immediately appear to assist them....I can see P&O's predicament.

[Megabear2]

48 minutes ago, Gettingwarmer said:

For walking stick users one to one assistance is recommended but it is not mandatory. Most occasional stick users would not require it. 
 

https://www.pocruises.com/accessibility/emergencies-and-other-information

 

Emergency assistance

There are two different types of emergency assistance:

• An evacuation chair – for example, you would be unable to use the stairs due to mobility or other circumstances. For anyone bringing a wheelchair or mobility scooter, this is a mandatory requirement.
• One-to-one assistance – if you need someone to guide and steady you on the stairs due to mobility or other circumstance, this is a mandatory requirement. For anyone bringing a mobility aid, like a walking stick or walker, this is recommended.

It may indeed say this but I have out of four bookings two bookings as stated elsewhere in the thread which the booking agent at P&O has marked our reservation as minimum requirement one to one assistance.  This is for a man who uses a stick no more than two or three times a year.  I queried why the other bookings do not have this requirement and the answer is neither P&O or Cunard can explain why the same passenger with the same mobility/illness is required to have one to one assistance on one cruise but not another.

 

Hence my personal interest in all this as I have personal concerns about the confusions arising on this issue.

[Gettingwarmer]

12 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

It may indeed say this but I have out of four bookings two bookings as stated elsewhere in the thread which the booking agent at P&O has marked our reservation as minimum requirement one to one assistance.  This is for a man who uses a stick no more than two or three times a year.  I queried why the other bookings do not have this requirement and the answer is neither P&O or Cunard can explain why the same passenger with the same mobility/illness is required to have one to one assistance on one cruise but not another.

 

Hence my personal interest in all this as I have personal concerns about the confusions arising on this issue.

I can only think this is because your husband has a condition that flares up. Sometimes he has no need of a stick but other times it is a necessity. They are taking the point that on the cruise it could be at a time when the condition is at its worst and one to one assistance would be necessary.

On certain cruises they are taking this attitude, on others they have looked at it differently. Yours is a unique circumstance. 

Edited May 18 by Gettingwarmer

[Megabear2]

Just now, Gettingwarmer said:

I can only think this is because your husband has a condition that flares up. Sometimes he has no need of a stick but other times it is a necessity. They are taking the point that on the cruise it could be at a time when the condition is at its worst and one to one assistance would be necessary. 

I agree but there are four cruises, 2 P&O and 2 Cunard.  One P&O and one Cunard state required one to one the other on each line says not required.  I have subsequently filled in new forms for the other two cruises stating we need it.  Interestingly it is the two oldest bookings saying it is compulsory whereas the newer ones state not mandatory.  The first of these sailings is not until August on Aurora so we shall see.  As an aside Cunard require a tender test which will be carried out privately once onboard P&O however say unnecessary.

[Gettingwarmer]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

I agree but there are four cruises, 2 P&O and 2 Cunard.  One P&O and one Cunard state required one to one the other on each line says not required.  I have subsequently filled in new forms for the other two cruises stating we need it.  Interestingly it is the two oldest bookings saying it is compulsory whereas the newer ones state not mandatory.  The first of these sailings is not until August on Aurora so we shall see.  As an aside Cunard require a tender test which will be carried out privately once onboard P&O however say unnecessary.

Sorry I added to my post as you were quoting. 
I think that maybe by making it compulsory for stick users would lead to far too many one to one situations. They then maybe changed it to recommended. They do say if you are unsteady and need guidance and help it is mandatory. 

[Selbourne]

13 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I agree but there are four cruises, 2 P&O and 2 Cunard.  One P&O and one Cunard state required one to one the other on each line says not required.  I have subsequently filled in new forms for the other two cruises stating we need it.  Interestingly it is the two oldest bookings saying it is compulsory whereas the newer ones state not mandatory.  The first of these sailings is not until August on Aurora so we shall see.  As an aside Cunard require a tender test which will be carried out privately once onboard P&O however say unnecessary.

It sounds to me as though the two bookings that state that your husband requires 1:1 assistance is an error. From what you have said, he sounds as though he doesn’t need it.  
 

As for tender step tests on P&O, we tend to avoid cruises with tender ports but on our recent Aurora cruise every single passenger using a tender had to perform a step test immediately prior to boarding the tender. This seems to have replaced the previous system where those who had declared mobility issues had to attend the show lounge on a sea day prior to the first tender port to prove that they could meet the requirement (but only if they wished to disembark at tender ports). 

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, Selbourne said:

It sounds to me as though the two bookings that state that your husband requires 1:1 assistance is an error. From what you have said, he sounds as though he doesn’t need it.  
 

As for tender step tests on P&O, we tend to avoid cruises with tender ports but on our recent Aurora cruise every single passenger using a tender had to perform a step test immediately prior to boarding the tender. This seems to have replaced the previous system where those who had declared mobility issues had to attend the show lounge on a sea day prior to the first tender port to prove that they could meet the requirement (but only if they wished to disembark at tender ports). 

Yes, I'd thought they were errors and my husband got very uptight about being told he needed assistance, you may recall I started a thread when it first started.  However both cruise lines will not remove the requirement for one to one from the bookings stating they consider it mandatory, hence I resubmitted for the other two saying yes.  I felt we would be damned if we did and damned if we didn't.

 

The tender test sounds much better.  

 

[Ardennais]

I take it that a companion can provide one to one assistance and that it doesn’t have to be crew?  We clearly stated in the Queen Vic questionnaire earlier this year that we would provide one to one assistance to my mother. 
 

Single passengers requiring one to one assistance is a different matter of course. 

[Gettingwarmer]

19 minutes ago, Ardennais said:

I take it that a companion can provide one to one assistance and that it doesn’t have to be crew?  We clearly stated in the Queen Vic questionnaire earlier this year that we would provide one to one assistance to my mother. 
 

Single passengers requiring one to one assistance is a different matter of course. 

This is not correct. 

[david63]

The nonsense of that letter is that your travelling companion may not be with you, which is true but one thing that is certain is that a member of crew will not be with you and furthermore your companion stands far more change of finding you than a member of crew will.

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, david63 said:

The nonsense of that letter is that your travelling companion may not be with you, which is true but one thing that is certain is that a member of crew will not be with you and furthermore your companion stands far more change of finding you than a member of crew will.

 

Absolutely right, clearly  the travelling companion will drop everything and come looking for you. They will have a better idea of where you are than a random member of the crew. Nonsense.