Cruising With A Service Dog....everything You Ever Wanted To Know!

[MDTrip]

Going on Celebrity with my visually impaired friend cruising with her black lab, Gary, for the first time. I have two questions for those who have Celebrity experience. I have not found the answers on this forum, so any help would be appreciated.

 

1. They supply cedar chips. Is this like hamster cage shavings? or like the chunks of cedar bark you would use around landscaping? or something else? I can't picture either being absorbent enough for two days of urine. (Celebrity said they change it every other day.)

 

2. I read that Celebrity put the box in a crew closet. If Gary will not "PARK" indoors, will celebrity move the box to a deck outside?

 

3. Once we check in, who or where do we go to have someone show us where the box is?

 

Thanks very much.

 

Lynn

(Lab lover -- on my fifth lab. The last one, "Lois" lived to one month shy of 16!)

[wizard-of-roz]

We have been to Alaska twice with our dog. Once by air and once by sea. Not a problem on either trip, but for the cruise we did go through Vancouver so we needed paperwork.

 

I think it's warmer in Alaska than it's been in Maryland lately.

 

I bet you're right!

[wizard-of-roz]

We just got Ocho's advance training progress report. So far so good.

 

Ocho is now able to hold dumbbells made of various materials, and he can get a wooden dumbbell from my hand if I hold it out in front of him. He is also able to push drawers and doors shut. We are currently working on him being able to do an up on the wall and push a push plate to open a door. He is still sullen, but he is now more willing to work when I give him a high value treat for completing a command. He also has started to play fetch with a tennis ball. While on a field trip to Target he was able to complete his commands and was very calm when greeted by people.

 

I'm so glad he's doing so well! It looks like this boy is going to make it! You must be so proud. It must be a great feeling to Puppyraise and watch the young dog grow and learn, soon to become someone's forever partner in life. What a reward for such hard work on everyone's part!

[wizard-of-roz]

Going on Celebrity with my visually impaired friend cruising with her black lab, Gary, for the first time. I have two questions for those who have Celebrity experience. I have not found the answers on this forum, so any help would be appreciated.

 

1. They supply cedar chips. Is this like hamster cage shavings? or like the chunks of cedar bark you would use around landscaping? or something else? I can't picture either being absorbent enough for two days of urine. (Celebrity said they change it every other day.)

 

2. I read that Celebrity put the box in a crew closet. If Gary will not "PARK" indoors, will celebrity move the box to a deck outside?

 

3. Once we check in, who or where do we go to have someone show us where the box is?

 

Thanks very much.

 

Lynn

(Lab lover -- on my fifth lab. The last one, "Lois" lived to one month shy of 16!)

 

We really liked Celebrity, they tried very hard to please us and make our trip with Brenda a good one.

 

The "cedar chips" were more like mulch that you put around a garden and they're very absorbent. If I'm not mistaken the box was placed on an outside deck away from the public. I requested that they move it to an inside spot, and we all chose a crew closet closest to our cabin. It was perfect.

 

You go to the "Information Desk" or "Purser's Desk" when you get onboard the ship. Ask for the Hotel Manager or his/her assistant and ask to be taken to the dog's potty box. This is a very important step because you're introducing yourself, your dog and your commitment to doing the right thing while onboard, immediately. Ask that someone escort you to the potty box so that if there's a problem you can address it quickly.

 

Your dogs comfort is utmost while cruising. And, once the potty box issue is to your liking, your cruise will be perfect for all of you.

 

Make sure there is a waste disposal can [for you to pick up the solids and drop the plastic bag into the can], make sure to bring plenty of bags with you and request that an extra bag of mulch be left near the box. I found that if I sprinkle clean mulch around and make sure that the box is filled with enough of the stuff that my dog has an easier time, especially if they're the type that make a lot of circles before they go.

 

I hope some of this helps.

 

I'm so impressed at Lois' age before she wasn't a dog anymore! 16 years old. I hope my Brenda lives that long. As long as she's enjoying her quality of life, I love having her in my life! Horton's pretty crazy about her too. A 16 year old Lab is like a 112 year old person. Fabulous!!!!! You were very lucky and you must be a wonderful caretaker. :)

Edited January 29, 2014 by wizard-of-roz

[wizard-of-roz]

Cindy, where and how are you? Are you packed yet?

 

Don't you just love Princess's new phrase words ~ "Come Back New!" And, the commercials are perfect! I give the person who thought of the phrase and the commercial a very big GOLD STAR! It sure makes me want to book a cruise with Princess. Of course, for me, that wouldn't take much! :p

 

Marcia, when's your next cruise and why can't you go with me on April 19th? No pressure! ;)

Edited January 30, 2014 by wizard-of-roz

[sunshine426]

Hello Everyone and Greetings from the not so sunny south! Just wanted to let everyone know that Rich is doing great. The wheelchair is now out of the trunk and his stamina is improving. So far no colds or infections this winter. Of course we put ourselves in a "bubble" for the season!!!

My puppy in training "Bruce" is doing well. He is now 7 months old and has incredible confidence in public. Rich's disability has been an asset to his training. He is comfortable around wheelchairs and canes. Also, since Rich often uses the smart carts at stores, he is comfortable around this as well. He says bring on a power chair.

Bruce still likes a middle of the night potty run as well. I think he just hears me get up and thinks it is his turn as well. So Sandy and Bruce and I are off to the back yard around 4am. While most of my service dogs in training sleep in a crate all night, Bruce, likes to sleep by my bedside. He will often crate himself during the night as well.

Rich and I have our panama canal cruise on April 16th. We are very very excited.

[wizard-of-roz]

Hello Everyone and Greetings from the not so sunny south! Just wanted to let everyone know that Rich is doing great. The wheelchair is now out of the trunk and his stamina is improving. So far no colds or infections this winter. Of course we put ourselves in a "bubble" for the season!!!

My puppy in training "Bruce" is doing well. He is now 7 months old and has incredible confidence in public. Rich's disability has been an asset to his training. He is comfortable around wheelchairs and canes. Also, since Rich often uses the smart carts at stores, he is comfortable around this as well. He says bring on a power chair.

Bruce still likes a middle of the night potty run as well. I think he just hears me get up and thinks it is his turn as well. So Sandy and Bruce and I are off to the back yard around 4am. While most of my service dogs in training sleep in a crate all night, Bruce, likes to sleep by my bedside. He will often crate himself during the night as well.

Rich and I have our panama canal cruise on April 16th. We are very very excited.

 

Sunshine, it's so good to hear from you and hear about Rich's progress.

 

"Bruce" what a cute name. Bruce and Brenda they'd make a lovely couple. He sounds like a great pup. I love the fact that he gets the choice to sleep by you or in his crate. Your 4am potty break sounds a little trying but hopefully he'll soon be sleeping through the night.

 

I bet you guys are so excited about your well deserved upcoming cruise. I'd like to be a fly on the wall just to see the smile on both your faces. It's been a long time since you two enjoyed a cruise together!!!!

[rangeley]

Hi All,

My mom is having some major medical problems (pace maker put in and now on insulin) and during all this we (except John, crossing fingers) ended up with what we think was the norovirus. Twelve hours of anything bad that can come out of you. It was horrible!!!!!! My mom ended up back in hospital and they are taking good care of her. I have had NO time to do anything here in MA. I have appointments almost every day next week for the cruise and also need to clean the house. And of course pack!! I haven't have one minute to do anything. Poor John has been struggling to do things on his own with the help from a few neighbors. I have been back and forth a million times from CT to Bos. And thats with the virus and my mom in the hospital inbetween. We are praying she is going to be well enough for us to go on this cruise. My brother has really stepped up and is taking great care of her. But I will still be nervous the whole time we are gone. I read our travel ins and I don't think nervousness is a reason to cancel and get our money back. We have a nurse coming in a home health aid and an OT. So that helps.

 

Cindy

[wizard-of-roz]

Hi All,

My mom is having some major medical problems (pace maker put in and now on insulin) and during all this we (except John, crossing fingers) ended up with what we think was the norovirus. Twelve hours of anything bad that can come out of you. It was horrible!!!!!! My mom ended up back in hospital and they are taking good care of her. I have had NO time to do anything here in MA. I have appointments almost every day next week for the cruise and also need to clean the house. And of course pack!! I haven't have one minute to do anything. Poor John has been struggling to do things on his own with the help from a few neighbors. I have been back and forth a million times from CT to Bos. And thats with the virus and my mom in the hospital inbetween. We are praying she is going to be well enough for us to go on this cruise. My brother has really stepped up and is taking great care of her. But I will still be nervous the whole time we are gone. I read our travel ins and I don't think nervousness is a reason to cancel and get our money back. We have a nurse coming in a home health aid and an OT. So that helps.

 

Cindy

 

Cindy, I knew something was up. Oh! My gosh! You've got your hands full over there. How are you getting around with all that bad weather outside? You must be so worn-out with having that virus. Girl, you're a mess!!!!

 

I'm sorry about your Mom. I can remember all the trips and plans that we had to change when my Mom was in and out of the hospital. We once even had a CHP Officer knock on our door when we were in Biloxi, Miss. in our bus. Scared the bejeebers out of us. My sister couldn't get a hold of us and she called the CHP. Neither Morey and I were big supporters of cell phones until this happened.

 

With all the assistance you'll be getting and with your brother don't you think you can relax just a little bit? I know, I know, easy for me to say.

 

Cindy, I know exactly how you're feeling. I hope as the cruise gets closer you'll be feeling better about going. I know I'm clear across the country but if you want me to call and check in or be the phone relay person I'm happy to help.

Let me know if I can do anything.

Edited January 31, 2014 by wizard-of-roz

[rangeley]

Cindy, I knew something was up. Oh! My gosh! You've got your hands full over there. How are you getting around with all that bad weather outside? You must be so worn-out with having that virus. Girl, you're a mess!!!!

 

I'm sorry about your Mom. I can remember all the trips and plans that we had to change when my Mom was in and out of the hospital. We once even had a CHP Officer knock on our door when we were in Biloxi, Miss. in our bus. Scared the bejeebers out of us. My sister couldn't get a hold of us and she called the CHP. Neither Morey and I were big supporters of cell phones until this happened.

 

With all the assistance you'll be getting and with your brother don't you think you can relax just a little bit? I know, I know, easy for me to say.

 

Cindy, I know exactly how you're feeling. I hope as the cruise gets closer you'll be feeling better about going. I know I'm clear across the country but if you want me to call and check in or be the phone relay person I'm happy to help.

Let me know if I can do anything.

 

Thanks Roz. I appreciate everything. Unfortunately John came down with the virus around 4am this morning. I was praying that he didn't get it. He's in bed and poor Wex can't figure out whats going on. All he wants to do is snuggle on the bed with daddy but he can't right now. :( I'll keep you updated.

[trudle]

OH! Cindy,

So sorry to hear all that is going on in your life right now. I was wondering why I didn't see you on here. Hope that your mom is doing better and the rest of you too. Hope that you will be able to go on your cruise---you sound like you have everything in place. I know its hard to go so far away, when ones family is sick but you need the break , in order to keep up what you are doing. You can take over when you get home and are rested. Wish that I could do something for you. Sending hugs and good wishes.

 

Trudy

[trudle]

To everyone else out there---Hi. Hope that you all are doing well.

 

Sunshine----what great news---hope you have a great cruise.

 

Have just lurked a little since I have been getting ready for my Art show on the 9th.

If I missed something, I am sorry and hope every is healthy and keeping warm.

 

Davis is such a cutie.

 

Have a great weekend everyone.

[S.S. Cruisers]

Cindy, I am so sorry for all your unfortunate dealings. I wish I could wave a magic wand and all was well. I guess the silver lining is "You have all had the norovirus so you should be good to go on the cruise." As for your mom, been there done that. I can honestly say I know how you feel. I would be a nervous wreck, also. But, you need the break and it sounds like you have all the care for her that is possible. Is mom currently in the hospital or home? A big sigh. :(

[Insuregal]

Hi All,

My mom is having some major medical problems (pace maker put in and now on insulin) and during all this we (except John, crossing fingers) ended up with what we think was the norovirus. Twelve hours of anything bad that can come out of you. It was horrible!!!!!! My mom ended up back in hospital and they are taking good care of her. I have had NO time to do anything here in MA. I have appointments almost every day next week for the cruise and also need to clean the house. And of course pack!! I haven't have one minute to do anything. Poor John has been struggling to do things on his own with the help from a few neighbors. I have been back and forth a million times from CT to Bos. And thats with the virus and my mom in the hospital inbetween. We are praying she is going to be well enough for us to go on this cruise. My brother has really stepped up and is taking great care of her. But I will still be nervous the whole time we are gone. I read our travel ins and I don't think nervousness is a reason to cancel and get our money back. We have a nurse coming in a home health aid and an OT. So that helps.

 

Cindy

 

Cindy, I am so sorry that all of you have been so sick. I will be in Boston tomorrow through Thursday night if I can help you with anything. One of my daughters has two big medical tests and four doctor appointments during the week, we will be trekking all over the city.

 

I appreciate how you feel about your mom, with your brother stepping up to help. My mom & dad are 75 & 80 and live next door to us on the same farm. My husband and I do all we can to help them from day to day. But with our daughters both disabled and running them to doctors and anywhere else they need to go it just got a mite too much for us. Not to mention my daily commute to work. So I had a heart to heart with one of my sisters and expressed to her that my load was getting a little too heavy - would she be willing to step in. She and her husband are just terrific! Now they are the ones who take my folks to all the doctor appointments.

 

My baby sister who lives really close takes mother out to the grocery store and other shopping she wants to do. (My mom is a shopaholic and super bargain shopper!) Then she comes out every Sunday to spend the afternoon and evening with them.

 

I would like to be super woman and take care of everybody in the way I think best. It just doesn't work out best for anybody if I try to do it. So I have to be content with what I can do and enjoy all the fun things that come my way. No one is better off if I spend my "scheduled" relaxing time worrying about what might happen. (Believe me if there were a degree in worrying I would be a PhD.) Refreshment and relaxation are necessary for a healthy life.

 

Off my soapbox now. :) Please go on your trip and think only of the peace and refreshment you are getting as you sail. Allow your brother his turn to be a great caregiver. I will keep you all in my prayers.

 

Beckie

Edited February 1, 2014 by Insuregal
wanted to add a bit

[rangeley]

Cindy, I am so sorry for all your unfortunate dealings. I wish I could wave a magic wand and all was well. I guess the silver lining is "You have all had the norovirus so you should be good to go on the cruise." As for your mom, been there done that. I can honestly say I know how you feel. I would be a nervous wreck, also. But, you need the break and it sounds like you have all the care for her that is possible. Is mom currently in the hospital or home? A big sigh. :(

 

OH! Cindy,

So sorry to hear all that is going on in your life right now. I was wondering why I didn't see you on here. Hope that your mom is doing better and the rest of you too. Hope that you will be able to go on your cruise---you sound like you have everything in place. I know its hard to go so far away, when ones family is sick but you need the break , in order to keep up what you are doing. You can take over when you get home and are rested. Wish that I could do something for you. Sending hugs and good wishes.

 

Trudy

 

 

Thanks to all of you for your kind words. I just talked to the nurse and all tests for everything are fine. I did find out that they were giving her some meds that make you nauseous and thats prob why she cant eat anything. She is still in the hospital hopefully coming home by Monday. I doubt it would be tomorrow.

 

John on the otherhand has finished his 12 hours of hell, which seems to be the timeline for this illness. Of course he will feel crappy for days, he is over the hump. He just got up and is in the shower. :)

[rangeley]

Cindy, I am so sorry that all of you have been so sick. I will be in Boston tomorrow through Thursday night if I can help you with anything. One of my daughters has two big medical tests and four doctor appointments during the week, we will be trekking all over the city.

 

I appreciate how you feel about your mom, with your brother stepping up to help. My mom & dad are 75 & 80 and live next door to us on the same farm. My husband and I do all we can to help them from day to day. But with our daughters both disabled and running them to doctors and anywhere else they need to go it just got a mite too much for us. Not to mention my daily commute to work. So I had a heart to heart with one of my sisters and expressed to her that my load was getting a little too heavy - would she be willing to step in. She and her husband are just terrific! Now they are the ones who take my folks to all the doctor appointments.

 

My baby sister who lives really close takes mother out to the grocery store and other shopping she wants to do. (My mom is a shopaholic and super bargain shopper!) Then she comes out every Sunday to spend the afternoon and evening with them.

 

I would like to be super woman and take care of everybody in the way I think best. It just doesn't work out best for anybody if I try to do it. So I have to be content with what I can do and enjoy all the fun things that come my way. No one is better off if I spend my "scheduled" relaxing time worrying about what might happen. (Believe me if there were a degree in worrying I would be a PhD.) Refreshment and relaxation are necessary for a healthy life.

 

Off my soapbox now. :) Please go on your trip and think only of the peace and refreshment you are getting as you sail. Allow your brother his turn to be a great caregiver. I will keep you all in my prayers.

 

Beckie

 

Beckie, My mom is 88 and it's been tough. But with my brother stepping up it has really taken some pressure off me. Going home one day a week and trying to get everything done is rough, especially now. But I'm going to try to concentrate on the cruise this week. I really need some time to pack and get the dog all set. :eek:

 

Cindy

[wizard-of-roz]

Just got back from having a root canal......Geezzzz! It's the 21st century, does dentistry have to be so archaic? I hate the dentist and have to be pre-medicated before I can even go! When my father was in his 40's and two teeth needed root canals he told the dentist to pull them and before he was 45 he had a complete set of dentures. Here I am trying to save each tooth!

 

Cindy, give John my best, poor guy. That virus is so yucky!!!!! Boy, talk about earning a cruise!

 

Beckie, you sure have your hands full. The promises we women make to our families in the way that we help them amazes me!

 

Try to enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone!

 

I've actually got my heat running today.......L.A. is getting a cold spell.....Hallelujah!!!!!!

[rangeley]

Geez now they are predicting a snow storm for Saturday. :eek: Of course we leave Sunday. Just something else to stress about now. I already told Lee to be ready for pickup on Friday. I hope all this sickness means that we are all immune to any bugs going around on the ship. :D

 

 

 

Oh my Roz, I'm with you on the dentist thing. Sorry to hear about your root canal. YUCK!!!!

[S.S. Cruisers]

Mornin' all: OK, that's it, I am done, capute, finee (sp), finished! We all better get better and move on! I had minor surgery on Friday. Everything is fine, but had to have the dreaded IV, in the hand no less. I told her she better tape it down good, because that is the first thing I try to rip out when I am coming to. This was a breeze, the IV didn't hurt, came out of the anesthesia (which is a good thing all by itself!) and feel great. Hope every one else is on the mend.

 

Roz: Hugs that you mouth isn't still hurting.

 

Cindy: I think I need to send more than hugs! Hope everything starts falling into place. You have to get that Sexy Wexy all packed and ready to go. I can just picture that beautiful ocean air and sunshine!

 

Everyone else, hope all is well. Have a great week, all.

[Caribbean Chris]

Question for those of you with service dogs (though of course, I'll be talking with her trainer about this, and it no doubt varies greatly with each situation and each dog).

 

How long after receiving your dog would you consider taking him/her on any sort of major trip? (I have been a travel writer/editor for 12 years.)

 

Hearing Dog Raylene, a two-year old black lab, will become my partner on February 26 and our work together will begin. I have cleared the slate and will concentrate on our mutual training in the months ahead. Will stay home and do editing jobs.

 

We're going to cancel a complicated Europe trip + transatlantic crossing I had already booked, (pleasure, not business - I don't write about cruises), never dreaming my wait would be so much shorter than usual - I had been told a year minimum. But I am a planner and am thinking ahead to our plans for 2014/2015.

 

Most of my articles currently appear in RV publications, so we'll gradually introduce my partner to the RV as her second home fairly early on. But I'm just wondering about booking a cruise for next winter. Too soon?

Edited February 3, 2014 by Caribbean Chris

[wizard-of-roz]

Question for those of you with service dogs (though of course, I'll be talking with her trainer about this, and it no doubt varies greatly with each situation and each dog).

 

How long after receiving your dog would you consider taking him/her on any sort of major trip? (I have been a travel writer/editor for 12 years.)

 

Hearing Dog Raylene, a two-year old black lab, will become my partner on February 26 and our work together will begin. I have cleared the slate and will concentrate on our mutual training in the months ahead. Will stay home and do editing jobs.

 

We're going to cancel a complicated Europe trip + transatlantic crossing I had already booked, (pleasure, not business - I don't write about cruises), never dreaming my wait would be so much shorter than usual - I had been told a year minimum. But I am a planner and am thinking ahead to our plans for 2014/2015.

 

Most of my articles currently appear in RV publications, so we'll gradually introduce my partner to the RV as her second home fairly early on. But I'm just wondering about booking a cruise for next winter. Too soon?

 

 

First, congratulations on getting your dog, Raylene [isn't that a Dolly Parton song?] so soon! Amazing! You must be getting so excited.

 

I don't think it's too soon at all. It's your life, it's what you do. You travel and these dogs are used to it. As long as she's with you and you keep your commands and expectations sharp, she'll be good to go. Just make sure you don't run into any flukes, like with the potty box. On Brenda's [my first SD's] very first cruise, there were a few nightmare moments; with the potty box, with people distracting her, with me not clear on when and when not to stop and chit chat.....etc., etc.

 

You'll find your stride and what works best for both of you. Remember, you will be stopped a lot of times because your not blind and you're not in a wheel chair and people don't know that SD's can be used for deafness [i wish someone would have warned me about this! Be ready to answer a lot questions and even to be asked if they can touch, sit with and take pictures of Raylene. Be prepared for what you'll say and for how long you will allow YOUR vacation be disrupted by this.

 

Please keep us in the loop, since your time is coming-up so quickly to get her. We want to hear all about it! I'm so excited for you! :) ;)

[wizard-of-roz]

Geez now they are predicting a snow storm for Saturday. :eek: Of course we leave Sunday. Just something else to stress about now. I already told Lee to be ready for pickup on Friday. I hope all this sickness means that we are all immune to any bugs going around on the ship. :D

 

 

 

Oh my Roz, I'm with you on the dentist thing. Sorry to hear about your root canal. YUCK!!!!

 

You will so have earned this darn vacation.......that ship better throw a party for you!

[wizard-of-roz]

Mornin' all: OK, that's it, I am done, capute, finee (sp), finished! We all better get better and move on! I had minor surgery on Friday. Everything is fine, but had to have the dreaded IV, in the hand no less. I told her she better tape it down good, because that is the first thing I try to rip out when I am coming to. This was a breeze, the IV didn't hurt, came out of the anesthesia (which is a good thing all by itself!) and feel great. Hope every one else is on the mend.

 

Roz: Hugs that you mouth isn't still hurting.

 

Cindy: I think I need to send more than hugs! Hope everything starts falling into place. You have to get that Sexy Wexy all packed and ready to go. I can just picture that beautiful ocean air and sunshine!

 

Everyone else, hope all is well. Have a great week, all.

 

Oh! No! Nancy, I hope all is well with you and that your healing. My tooth is feeling sore but good! Nothing like good old Valium to take the stress and pain away. The dentist gave me an RX for Vicodin.....I'm holding off on the hard stuff, until I really need it.

 

Feel good, I'm sending you valiumizing kisses & hugs! (((((((;o)))))))

[Caribbean Chris]

Thanks, Roz - these pointers about the ship are so useful.

 

Glad you've got good drugs to tide you over. Valium helps me for rare vertigo episodes connected to my hearing. Better Living Through Chemistry.

 

Yes, Raylene might well be a Dolly P song. I keep humming Maybelline (Why can't you be true?) My sister-in-law in NC says it's a good southern red neck name. So I can introduce her to those ship people, "i'm Chris, n this here's Raylene."

[wizard-of-roz]

Thanks, Roz - these pointers about the ship are so useful.

 

Glad you've got good drugs to tide you over. Valium helps me for rare vertigo episodes connected to my hearing. Better Living Through Chemistry.

 

Yes, Raylene might well be a Dolly P song. I keep humming Maybelline (Why can't you be true?) My sister-in-law in NC says it's a good southern red neck name. So I can introduce her to those ship people, "i'm Chris, n this here's Raylene."

 

You know what else helps with Vertigo........Meclazine. You can buy it right over the counter. Some people use it for sea sickness. It's a little miracle drug that comes in so handy with nausea too! For me, it makes me a bit sleepy but I'd rather be a bit sleepy than all those things above!

 

When people ask what Horton's name is and I tell them, they ALWAYS smile!!!! He looks like his name should be Marmaduke or Goofy! But, Horton Hears a Who, is the first thing they say. I don't know why the public has such a fascination with our dogs names.

 

CCI suggests that we don't tell the public the dogs real name so they can't distract him by calling him. Sometimes I will give a fake name if the folks who are asking look like they're going to be mischievous, like calling him when I've walked past them or calling out his name when we're trying to maneuver the stairs, etc., etc. You'll need to use your good judgment on this one!