Who Wants an End to HAL Formal Nights Entirely?

[RevNeal]

>women can wear almost anything to formal night now. It's the coat and tie that is the problem. <

 

A jacket and tie is "formal"?

 

Technically, no, but on HAL the Formal Night Dress Code stipulates that a jacket and tie is the minimum a gentlemen should wear in order to get by.

[dadroy]

My vote would be to keep formal nights. I do not enjoy the dressing up part, but it makes my wife happy, which of course is my primary purpose in life.

 

I find it interesting that many people who are answering this question by saying to eliminate formal nights throw in "as long as it does not get to shorts and t-shirts". If HAL dropped formal night and went to country club casual, in 10 years would we not be able to vote on eliminating country club casual? Jeans in the MDR should be fine.

 

The point I am trying to make, not well I think, is we all want some sort of standard for all dining. Once you set that standard arguments can always be made for changing them. Look at all the threads on CC about dressing. Ball caps in the dining room, bare chested men in the Lido, bikini's (wet) in the Lido. I like the idea of setting those standards a bit higher.

[WhansaMi]

I appreciate your remarks and perspective. The portion you quoted actually echos the inculcation from my mother, who always assumes that when someone looks at her the first thing they're thinking is either "she's way overdressed" or "she's way underdressed" or "how could she wear those shoes with that dress!" Or other such thoughts. We just buried her mother, and my mother spent an hour prior to the Family time on Friday night debating which pair of shoes to wear. She finally decided upon a pair with heels, even though that particular pair hurt her feet terribly. When I asked her why she just didn't wear a pair of flats her answer was that she wouldn't want to be seen without the proper shoes on at her own mother's Family Night! My response was "Mom, nobody is going to notice but you. And, if they were to notice, I'd tell 'em to take a flying you-know-what. Wear what makes you comfortable." She wore the most uncomfortable, but most "appropriate-looking" pair, which goes to show that she's more concerned without what other people think -- or might think -- than with her own comfort. This reflects an attitude that was instilled in her generation by prior generations; an attitude we've (thankfully) lost. Those who don't have that attitude and concern, however, lack an ability to comprehend why someone like my mother would put herself through agony just in order to conform to propriety. In the end, it's a motivation rooted in the fear of being embarrassed in public, and often stems from a low self-esteem or poor self-image. That describes my mother to a T.

 

My personal experience has shown that there can be multiple reasons for the "looks" and side-remarks of others. On some occasions they've been the kinds of things you suggest: for example, I had one couple point at me, make remarks at each other, and such as I was entering the crows nest one evening. What flashed through my mind was my mother's predilection against being noticed; what also flashed through my mind was the thought that something was wrong with my outfit, so I glanced down and checked my fly and the buttons of my vest to make sure that everything was fit and proper. Everything was. Later the lady came over to me at the bar and asked me where I had gotten my vest ... it was precisely the kind she had wanted to get for her husband, but couldn't find anywhere.

 

On another occasion a fellow had been staring at me during dinner every Formal night all-cruise long. On the last evening of the cruise he stopped me as I passed his table and asked me if I was RevNeal. I told him I was, and he stood and shook my hand and said he was very happy to get to meet me. I thought he must be a Cruise Critic member, but it turned out that he had been been listening, for several years, to my sermon podcasts via iTunes. And, that makes sense ... most cruise critic people come right up and ask, without any hesitation. It happens every cruise, now days ... I've become accustomed to that.

 

However, there have been a few actual occasions where the stares have been directed at me precisely because the person staring thought I was over dressed. On one occasion the fellow was pissed because his wife had used me as an example for how she wished he would dress -- i.e., I was setting a "bad example" for the other men (i.e., him) by daring to wear a Tuxedo when just a jacket and tie would do! (gasp!) Yes ... I found out because he came over and told me. On another occasion -- a smart casual night -- I was standing in the elevator dressed in slacks, button-down shirt, and a jacket. Another guy got on in shorts and a t-shirt, looked me up and down, and said "aren't you over dressed?" And, on one occasion I was dressed in a suit-and-tie on one of the now-defunct "Informal Nights" and a guy (with a little too much to drink in him) came up to me and told me I was over dressed and should take off my tie, since it wasn't Formal Night.

 

So ... yes ... just because you haven't heard of it happening, that doesn't mean that it doesn't. 5 years ago I would have been (and was) exceedingly self-conscious about such things. RuthC has taught me, by precept and example, to eschew such attitude and fears and dress-up as I please. If someone else doesn't like it, that's their problem. I just wish I could teach mom to do/feel the same.

 

First, and most importantly, please let me offer my condolenses on the loss of your grandmother.

 

You are right... I don't understand your mother's thinking... it is not a decision I would have made. But, for *her* it is the best decision, as it fits in with her world view and makes her feel most comfortable (even if it the least comfortable!).

 

With regard to the people who said you were overdressed, can I ask: what was the tone of voice that was used? I mean, I can hear some guy, having been chastised by his wife, idling up to the "elevated one" saying "Hey buddy... do us all a favor and stop being so good! You're makin' us look bad!".

 

For Valentine's Day, my husband ordered roses each day for the last three days of the work week (of course, we got snow, the flowers got delivered late, the company tried to make things right by sending extras, yadda, yadda), but long story short, when I got back to work I had over 100 roses in my classroom! When the husband of one of my colleagues saw him a few days later, he basically said the same thing to him: "Hey, stop that! Yer makin' me look bad!". My husband wasn't offended.

 

Similarly, I could easily hear someone say something to the effect of "Hey! Whatcha doing with a tie on??? It's not formal night! Relax......" To me, that's not really a criticism. Most people tend to feel that having a tie on is constraining, and it is more of an invitation, especially on a cruise, where people often feel like they want to take a vacation from all of the constraining factors of their lives.

 

Maybe I'm just not easily offended? But, if someone looked at me and asked if I was overdressed I'd laugh and say "Hey.... a girl only has a few opportunities to get gussied up. Gotta take 'em when you can get 'em." ;-) Of course, it isn't likely that would happen to me.... just sayin'..... :-)

 

I think you should, indeed, dress the way that makes you feel most comfortable. If I were you, I'd probably come up with some snappy and/or comments to respond to those who may feel the need to comment, something like "Heh. This tie is the only thing holding my head on, so for the benefit of all of us, I think I'll keep it on" <wink> or "Overdressed????? Geez, I was thinking about wearing my <insert the name of expensive designer here> cashmere tuxedo tonight! I'm glad I didn't!!"

[RevNeal]

First, and most importantly, please let me offer my condolenses on the loss of your grandmother.

 

Thank you. Last week was a horrible week. We spent the first half with my grandmother slowly slipping into a coma, then on to death. We spent the second half in that mad dash to prepare for a funeral, made all the more insane for me because I was the officiating minister. Many years ago I had told my grandmother I would "preach her funeral," and I was happy to do so if only for the ease it would place in Mom's mind. However, quite frankly, I would have appreciated being just a grandson, and not the minister. As a result, I've still got grieving to do. But, it will come. And, the "good news" is that she had lived a very long and fruitful life, and I praise God for the joy of having known her and for knowing that she is a FAR FAR better place today than she was last week -- no more illness, no more Altzhimers ... just the peace of God.

 

With regard to the people who said you were overdressed, can I ask: what was the tone of voice that was used? I mean, I can hear some guy, having been chastised by his wife, idling up to the "elevated one" saying "Hey buddy... do us all a favor and stop being so good! You're makin' us look bad!".

 

That's pretty close to the way in which it happened. Apparently, I was "ruining it" for him because, by providing an example of how he should be dressed, I was just causing him trouble with his wife. It was meant partly tongue-in-cheek, however I also couldn't shake the impression that it was also intended as an honest plea. Some guys just want to hang out in muscle shirts and baggy shorts all night long; they don't want to do the "prom night date thing," even when their wives ask them to. :( Stupid.

 

For Valentine's Day, my husband ordered roses each day for the last three days of the work week (of course, we got snow, the flowers got delivered late, the company tried to make things right by sending extras, yadda, yadda), but long story short, when I got back to work I had over 100 roses in my classroom! When the husband of one of my colleagues saw him a few days later, he basically said the same thing to him: "Hey, stop that! Yer makin' me look bad!". My husband wasn't offended.

 

You have him well trained ... congratulations!!! :D

 

Similarly, I could easily hear someone say something to the effect of "Hey! Whatcha doing with a tie on??? It's not formal night! Relax......" To me, that's not really a criticism. Most people tend to feel that having a tie on is constraining, and it is more of an invitation, especially on a cruise, where people often feel like they want to take a vacation from all of the constraining factors of their lives.

 

It all depends upon setting, tone of voice, expression on the face, etc. The guy in the elevator looked and sounded sarcastic and frustrated ... perhaps he felt a bit under-dressed (which, according to the code, he was). The guy who told me to take the tie off appeared to be genuinely mad ... perhaps he's wasn't a "happy drunk"? Could be.

 

Maybe I'm just not easily offended? But, if someone looked at me and asked if I was overdressed I'd laugh and say "Hey.... a girl only has a few opportunities to get gussied up. Gotta take 'em when you can get 'em." ;-) Of course, it isn't likely that would happen to me.... just sayin'..... :-)

 

That's one way to respond. It has been suggested to me that, the next time it happens (if it ever does) I should reply "Quite" and go on about my business with a smile on my face. I probably shall.

 

I think you should, indeed, dress the way that makes you feel most comfortable. If I were you, I'd probably come up with some snappy and/or comments to respond to those who may feel the need to comment, something like "Heh. This tie is the only thing holding my head on, so for the benefit of all of us, I think I'll keep it on" <wink> or "Overdressed????? Geez, I was thinking about wearing my <insert the name of expensive designer here> cashmere tuxedo tonight! I'm glad I didn't!!"

 

LOL I especially like the head one. That's cute. I so rarely wear ties anymore -- it's almost always clerics -- that when I get a chance (and on cruises I have those few opportunities) I do. Will some people look at me and wonder who I think I am, "dressing up like that." Will some interpret me as being "snooty" ... i.e., like other epithets we've seen thrown around on this board in the past on these threads ... perhaps. But, I'll be enjoying myself with RuthC and/or other CCer friends, so it won't matter. :D

[RuthC]

That's one way to respond. It has been suggested to me that, the next time it happens (if it ever does) I should reply "Quite" and go on about my business with a smile on my face. I probably shall.

Change "Quite" to "Not at all", with an everso slightly quizzical look on your face. :D

 

We'll practice. ;)

[RevNeal]

Change "Quite" to "Not at all", with an everso slightly quizzical look on your face. :D

 

We'll practice. ;)

 

:D Yes ma'am.

[Two@Sea]

Thank you. Last week was a horrible week. We spent the first half with my grandmother slowly slipping into a coma, then on to death...

 

Please accept my condolences for the loss of your grandmother. Having our loved ones go home is always difficult, and so my thoughts will be with you and your mother.

[usha]

RevNeal, I'm so sorry about your loss of your grandmother.

But you know you'll be seeing her again.:)

[suse]

Yeah, I am so sorry too. What a drag. But, I do believe in heaven and Christ the Lord is taking her home. God Bless you.

[geniesue]

There are so many people who say they will eat in Lido rather than dress formal, that I wonder at what point, it's time to do away with formal nights - to go all 'elegant casual'.

 

Maybe it is mainly because of airline weight restrictions and people don't want to lug the formal clothing or maybe it is because formal is alien to their lives and they don't want to experience on vacation but it seems many folks say they don't wish to participate.

 

You want it to continue or not?

Absoluiely want it to continue! The formal evenings give us a chance to step out of our usual casual habits. Enjoy dressing up and enjoy seeing DH looking good!

[suse]

I appreciate your remarks and perspective. The portion you quoted actually echos the inculcation from my mother, who always assumes that when someone looks at her the first thing they're thinking is either "she's way overdressed" or "she's way underdressed" or "how could she wear those shoes with that dress!" Or other such thoughts. We just buried her mother, and my mother spent an hour prior to the Family time on Friday night debating which pair of shoes to wear. She finally decided upon a pair with heels, even though that particular pair hurt her feet terribly. When I asked her why she just didn't wear a pair of flats her answer was that she wouldn't want to be seen without the proper shoes on at her own mother's Family Night! My response was "Mom, nobody is going to notice but you. And, if they were to notice, I'd tell 'em to take a flying you-know-what. Wear what makes you comfortable." She wore the most uncomfortable, but most "appropriate-looking" pair, which goes to show that she's more concerned without what other people think -- or might think -- than with her own comfort. This reflects an attitude that was instilled in her generation by prior generations; an attitude we've (thankfully) lost. Those who don't have that attitude and concern, however, lack an ability to comprehend why someone like my mother would put herself through agony just in order to conform to propriety. In the end, it's a motivation rooted in the fear of being embarrassed in public, and often stems from a low self-esteem or poor self-image. That describes my mother to a T.

 

My personal experience has shown that there can be multiple reasons for the "looks" and side-remarks of others. On some occasions they've been the kinds of things you suggest: for example, I had one couple point at me, make remarks at each other, and such as I was entering the crows nest one evening. What flashed through my mind was my mother's predilection against being noticed; what also flashed through my mind was the thought that something was wrong with my outfit, so I glanced down and checked my fly and the buttons of my vest to make sure that everything was fit and proper. Everything was. Later the lady came over to me at the bar and asked me where I had gotten my vest ... it was precisely the kind she had wanted to get for her husband, but couldn't find anywhere.

 

On another occasion a fellow had been staring at me during dinner every Formal night all-cruise long. On the last evening of the cruise he stopped me as I passed his table and asked me if I was RevNeal. I told him I was, and he stood and shook my hand and said he was very happy to get to meet me. I thought he must be a Cruise Critic member, but it turned out that he had been been listening, for several years, to my sermon podcasts via iTunes. And, that makes sense ... most cruise critic people come right up and ask, without any hesitation. It happens every cruise, now days ... I've become accustomed to that.

 

However, there have been a few actual occasions where the stares have been directed at me precisely because the person staring thought I was over dressed. On one occasion the fellow was pissed because his wife had used me as an example for how she wished he would dress -- i.e., I was setting a "bad example" for the other men (i.e., him) by daring to wear a Tuxedo when just a jacket and tie would do! (gasp!) Yes ... I found out because he came over and told me. On another occasion -- a smart casual night -- I was standing in the elevator dressed in slacks, button-down shirt, and a jacket. Another guy got on in shorts and a t-shirt, looked me up and down, and said "aren't you over dressed?" And, on one occasion I was dressed in a suit-and-tie on one of the now-defunct "Informal Nights" and a guy (with a little too much to drink in him) came up to me and told me I was over dressed and should take off my tie, since it wasn't Formal Night.

 

So ... yes ... just because you haven't heard of it happening, that doesn't mean that it doesn't. 5 years ago I would have been (and was) exceedingly self-conscious about such things. RuthC has taught me, by precept and example, to eschew such attitude and fears and dress-up as I please. If someone else doesn't like it, that's their problem. I just wish I could teach mom to do/feel the same.

Mama always told me who gives a flying leap, otherwise known as a rats ass.

You are way too great to care about all this nonsense. Ruth is right. Celebrate today.

love to you,

Susette

[Pokeynose]

RevNeal, I am so sorry for your loss. My prayers are with you and your Mother. Barb

[Cruzin Terri]

Rev. Neal,

I am sorry for the loss of your Grandmother.

I was also very happy to have met you last year on the Voyage of the Good Nuts.

You and your family are in my prayers.

Terri

[iancal]

...if HAL execs really do read these boards then please loosen up the slots and deal out some better cards on the blackjack table. And while you are about it, get the red meat back to restaurant grade. Thank you Mr. HAL.

[RevNeal]

...if HAL execs really do read these boards then please loosen up the slots and deal out some better cards on the blackjack table. And while you are about it, get the red meat back to restaurant grade. Thank you Mr. HAL.

 

Agreed ... particularly with regard to the meat in the MDR.

[RevNeal]

And "thank you" to all of you in your prayers for my family on the passing of my grandmother. We're doing well.

[m steve]

They cover the gap where my shirt buttons due to too many cruises.

Rev. Neal, I understand your loss but did it belong in this thread?

[Texas Tillie]

They cover the gap where my shirt buttons due to too many cruises.

Rev. Neal, I understand your loss but did it belong in this thread?

 

Are you nuts?:eek: That might be the nastiest and most inappropriate response that I've ever read on Cruise Critic - but somehow saying that you "understand" makes it OK? Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[KingsCt]

"In order to complement your fellow guests, Holland America Line asks that you observe the suggested dress code throughout the entire evening."

[hammybee]

One may find themselves dining next to someone in jeans and leather or black tie and everything in between, at most high end restaurants, on shore. Very few restaurants serving the general public maintain /enforce any sort of dress code and remain in business.

 

No way any cruise line can sail with more than 1 million passengers a year and not expect to see variation in attire within and across all sailings.

 

The number of passengers , judging the book by the cover and giving the stink eye to those dressed better or worse than themselves, probably balances in the long run.

 

The trend has and will continue to move towards a more relaxed dress code. Restaurants / cruise lines either accommodate trends or go out of business.

[buckirj1]

Hammy, this makes the most sense of anything I've read on this thread. It's an emotional issue for many, but you've introduced honest logic into the equation. Thanks!

 

Rev. Neal, my condolences on your loss.

[RevNeal]

They cover the gap where my shirt buttons due to too many cruises.

Rev. Neal, I understand your loss but did it belong in this thread?

 

No, it doesn't ... but I didn't solicit it here, it's coming about because I mentioned my mother's quandary while selecting clothing and shoes to wear at her mother's Family Time last week. People are just being kind. I'm sorry if you're finding fault in that.

[RevNeal]

Are you nuts?:eek: That might be the nastiest and most inappropriate response that I've ever read on Cruise Critic - but somehow saying that you "understand" makes it OK? Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

 

Thank you ... I appreciate your defense ... but let's just let that one go. It's not important.

[Taxguy77]

Keep dressing to please yourself. If you see me in the MDR on formal night I'll be wearing a NavyBlue blazer, black or gray slacks, a dress shirt (almost new) and a tie that is still about the right width even though over 20 years old. It's the best I can do from my closet but enjoy seeing folks dressed more formally, especially Full Dess Kilts and military Dress Whites or Blues.

[Orcrone]

the more they stay the same. Haven't posted on the HAL board for several years now. Put a smile on my face seeing a "dress code" thread with several hundred posts. I feel like I'm home.