20/20 tonight on ABC

[durangoscots]

I didn't see the story. Why does alcohol and the bar staff always get the blame?

 

Well, the alcohol is her own admission. She says the bartender made her drink all those drinks. Somewhere I also read she was upset that it took so long for the ship to turn around and pick her up. (Obviously they should have just done a fast U turn!!!!

 

Susan

[TiogaCruiser]

I recently watched a very interesting news story about the infamous McDonald's coffee case that really changed my perspective. It is very much worth watching to get a more complete perspective on the case which in some way become the symbol of an era of abusive litigation. I highly recommend taking 12 minutes to watch it, it is thought provoking.

 

.

Thanks for sharing- that was interesting. And well put together.

[existentialtraveler]

I recently watched a very interesting news story about the infamous McDonald's coffee case that really changed my perspective. It is very much worth watching to get a more complete perspective on the case which in some way become the symbol of an era of abusive litigation. I highly recommend taking 12 minutes to watch it, it is thought provoking.

 

 

As for the Carnival drinking woman case , absurd. I am tired of drunk people not taking responsibilty for their actions.

 

Finally, someone who understand the FACTS of the McDonalds coffee case. The JURY in that case was absolutely correct in holding McDonalds accountable.

 

As far as drinking is concerned, in my home state, the law is very clear: the bartender is NOT allowed to serve alcohol to someone until they are inebriated. It is the BARTENDER'S legal responsibility to refuse service to anyone drunk or becoming drunk. In my home state, the bar is also held legally accountable for any drunk driving accidents incurred by patrons leaving the bar drunk.

 

I do not know what the law is for a cruise ship.

Edited January 19, 2014 by existentialtraveler

[existentialtraveler]

For those who don't like to watch videos ( although this one is very well made and interesting) , here is a written summary of the case.

http://www.christian-attorney.net/mcdonalds_coffee_burn_case_christian_bible.html

 

Thank you.

[brazilgirl]

When I watched the news program about the McDonald's case , it really saddened me. I myself used it as an example of the greedy people not wanting to take responsiblity for their own actions. The media had a field day with and unfortunately the facts got lost in the frenzy.

 

As far as the Carnival suit....while I do think bartenders should cut people off if they are past their limit , the responsibility is the customers. Many people drink way past their limit and don't show the " signs" until they get up and start walking. It is unreasonable to expect a bartender to assses the level of each customers alcohol level.

 

Apparently this woman was drinking with a group of friends. They should have been keeping an eye on their friend if she was that drunk.

 

I don't have a lot of patience with this kind of behavior. It appalls me how drinking seems to be some people's favorite sport and the only way to have fun. Then they kill themselves or others with their reckless behavior. Carnival had the expense of the rescue operation...I am sure that is a pretty penny. She should be deeply thankful to them and not be suing them.

 

However , offering $5 tokens to the casino if you drink more needs to stop . Hope it is a wake up call for Carnival that encouraging drunken behavior has serious consequences.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541485/See-terrifying-moment-extremely-intoxicated-woman-plunges-100-feet-sea-suing-cruise-company-encouraging-drunk-leaving-floating-hours.html

[mamaofami]

No, there was no lawsuit.

It was a very sad circumstance of a soldier returned from deployment who did not receive the mental health care he needed.

 

No lawsuit. Perhaps in this instance there should be but I won't go there.

 

 

I watched that show too. Very sad story .We need to pay more attention to returning veterans who suffer from PTSD.

[kazu]

As far as the Carnival suit....while I do think bartenders should cut people off if they are past their limit , the responsibility is the customers. Many people drink way past their limit and don't show the " signs" until they get up and start walking. It is unreasonable to expect a bartender to assses the level of each customers alcohol level.

 

Apparently this woman was drinking with a group of friends. They should have been keeping an eye on their friend if she was that drunk.

 

I don't have a lot of patience with this kind of behavior. It appalls me how drinking seems to be some people's favorite sport and the only way to have fun. Then they kill themselves or others with their reckless behavior. Carnival had the expense of the rescue operation...I am sure that is a pretty penny. She should be deeply thankful to them and not be suing them.

 

However , offering $5 tokens to the casino if you drink more needs to stop . Hope it is a wake up call for Carnival that encouraging drunken behavior has serious consequences.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541485/See-terrifying-moment-extremely-intoxicated-woman-plunges-100-feet-sea-suing-cruise-company-encouraging-drunk-leaving-floating-hours.html

 

I agree. I enjoy having a drink, certainly, but this was sheer foolishness. No one forced the drinks down her. She should be grateful she is alive. Too me, she can't blame the cruise ship for her own actions. but that is JMO

[catl331]

Maritime law insists Carnival turn around and search and pick up her. BUT...they can charge for gas spent and extra time for employees. Hopefully

[Rosethorn40]

Finally, someone who understand the FACTS of the McDonalds coffee case. The JURY in that case was absolutely correct in holding McDonalds accountable.

 

I know this isn't a thread about coffee, or even McDonalds, but since the "McDonald's Coffee Case" always makes me see red I just have to comment. I was already aware of the "Facts" in the article, but they did leave out one important fact. The lady was wearing pantyhose under her sweat suit that melted onto her skin, that is why she required skin grafts. I didn't agree with the jury, I think she should have been more than 20% responsible since she was the one that put the coffee between her knees and spilled it.

 

So that brings me to my question. Why are the majority of people commenting on this thread decry the lack of personal responsibility on the part of this woman getting drunk and then falling overboard, but the few that have commented on the McDonald's case seem to side the plaintiff? Is it because elderly woman + hot coffee = Sympathetic figure while younger, drunk woman + alcohol = less sympathetic figure? I see it like this:

 

Hot coffee + Between legs = disaster waiting to happen

 

Excessive alcohol + Ships rail = disaster waiting to happen

[Hlitner]

If only life were so simple. Sure, it sounds fine to say that "my state has a law which makes it illegal to serve a visible drunk." But that is only the tip of the story. Bar tenders and bar owners can (and have been) also sued for discrimination when they refuse to serve somebody who "appears" drunk. There are several medical conditions that can make somebody "appear" inebriated when they have not even had a single drink. For example, diabetes problems, brain injury, certain forms of epilepsy, etc.

 

So the bar tender that refuses to serve somebody can end up on a witness stand with questions like , "What professional and medical training have you had that enables you to determine the sobriety of a customer?"

 

And lets talk about Hot Coffee. Assume that McDonalds serves coffee that is only luke warm. They then get sued by somebody who says they got food poisoning because the coffee was at a temperature that allowed a rare type of bacteria to thrive...and since the customer has a depressed immune system they became very ill (or even died).

 

In the final result, we are all paying a lot more for everything because we live in a litigious society where many folks refuse to accept personal responsibility. The women that put a very hot cup of coffee between her legs was a total idiot! The person that drinks themselves into oblivion is also an idiot! In our country we still have the right to be an idiot...but folks need to accept that when they do stupid idiotic things it is mostly their own fault.

 

Perhaps the solution is to just toss all the tort lawyers overboard. But then again, we would probably get sued by the sharks or environmentalists for polluting the sea :)

 

Hank

[brazilgirl]

If the woman who fell overboard were a 90 year lady who had been drinking too many Long Island Ice teas and leaned way over a cruise ship railing ( or jumped or sat on the railing) , I would feel the exact same way.

 

McDonald's was serving a product at 190 degrees , a temp which could cause 3rd degree burns in 15 seconds ( testimony of a burn expert). There had been over 700 prior reports of the danger of the temperature of the coffee. The woman asked repeatedly for McDonald's to cover her medical bills , which I think was reasonable under the circumstances. The huge punitive damages ( which I agree could be questioned ) were based on 2 days of coffee sales. They changed the temp due to this lawsuit.

 

Watch the New York Times video I posted and watch the video of the 20/20 segment on the Carnival .

https://www.youtube.com/embed/z4hQVKjss28?feature=oembed

 

I think personal responsibility is a very important notion which is lacking in today's society. And lawsuits for personal gain are abhorrent. But I see a very big difference betweeen the two cases. JMHO

[OHCruiser]

Part of McDonald's judgement was the result of McDonald's own hubris in ignoring prior incidents [and not changing their procedures accordingly] and in their choice NOT to settle with the woman when what she'd asked for was completely reasonable.

The jury did an excellent job in apportioning responsibility. The final judgement amount was equal to about 2 DAYS of coffee sales for the corporation--a literal drop in the bucket & nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

 

As for the cruiser--no one forced a funnel down her throat and with all of the places she could be drinking on the ship, it is completely unreasonable to assume that "a bartender" could have/should have protected her from herself.

 

Sadly, yes, the cruise line will likely settle with her for something that she doesn't deserve. She should be thanking her lucky stars that she's alive and she should grow up and swear off booze--I doubt that she'll do either as she seems too immature [or stupid] to do so.

[RuthC]

Too bad regular cruises will most likely be excluded from her jury.

[Thebes]

If only life were so simple. Sure, it sounds fine to say that "my state has a law which makes it illegal to serve a visible drunk." But that is only the tip of the story. Bar tenders and bar owners can (and have been) also sued for discrimination when they refuse to serve somebody who "appears" drunk. There are several medical conditions that can make somebody "appear" inebriated when they have not even had a single drink. For example, diabetes problems, brain injury, certain forms of epilepsy, etc.

 

So the bar tender that refuses to serve somebody can end up on a witness stand with questions like , "What professional and medical training have you had that enables you to determine the sobriety of a customer?"

 

And lets talk about Hot Coffee. Assume that McDonalds serves coffee that is only luke warm. They then get sued by somebody who says they got food poisoning because the coffee was at a temperature that allowed a rare type of bacteria to thrive...and since the customer has a depressed immune system they became very ill (or even died).

 

In the final result, we are all paying a lot more for everything because we live in a litigious society where many folks refuse to accept personal responsibility. The women that put a very hot cup of coffee between her legs was a total idiot! The person that drinks themselves into oblivion is also an idiot! In our country we still have the right to be an idiot...but folks need to accept that when they do stupid idiotic things it is mostly their own fault.

 

Perhaps the solution is to just toss all the tort lawyers overboard. But then again, we would probably get sued by the sharks or environmentalists for polluting the sea :)

 

Hank

 

Hank,

You hit it on the nail head. Very true IMO.

[Typhoon1]

Well, the alcohol is her own admission. She says the bartender made her drink all those drinks. Somewhere I also read she was upset that it took so long for the ship to turn around and pick her up. (Obviously they should have just done a fast U turn!!!!

 

Susan

 

I've never seen a bartender make anyone drink anything. Did he stand there and pour them down her throat?

[durangoscots]

[quote name='Typhoon1']I've never seen a bartender make anyone drink anything. Did he stand there and pour them down her throat?[/quote]

I"m just saying what she said..... frankly, I have never had a bartender really push drinks .... they may ask you if you want another, you say "no"... end of discussion.

Susan

[Rosethorn40]

[quote]

[COLOR=black]McDonald's was serving a product at 190 degrees[/COLOR] , a temp which could cause 3rd degree burns in 15 seconds ( testimony of a burn expert). There had been over 700 prior reports of the danger of the temperature of the coffee. The woman asked repeatedly for McDonald's to cover her medical bills , which I think was reasonable under the circumstances. The huge punitive damages ( which I agree could be questioned ) were based on 2 days of coffee sales. They changed the temp due to this lawsuit.

Watch the New York Times video I posted and watch the video of the 20/20 segment on the Carnival .
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/embed/z4hQVKjss28?feature=oembed[/URL]

I think personal responsibility is a very important notion which is lacking in today's society. And lawsuits for personal gain are abhorrent. But I see a very big difference between the two cases. JMHO
[/quote]

I guess we can agree to disagree. I did watch the video you posted (Actually I watched both), and then did a little research on optimum coffee temperatures, on the internet I'm afraid, which is not the most reliable resource of information, so I won't stake my life on it, and this is what I found.

For coffee brewing, the [URL="http://scaa.org/"]Specialty Coffee Association of America[/URL] (SCAA) prescribes a water temperature of 92 - 96 degrees C (195 - 205 degrees F);

Optimal flavor is obtained by holding the coffee at high temperatures, at [U]least[/U] 170 degrees Fahrenheit.

Then I found this article, which I found very interesting because it had a bit of the jury viewpoint in it, and I felt it was balanced in it's findings (And pro plaintiff)

[COLOR=#009030][URL="http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm"]www.vanosteen.com/[B]mcdonalds[/B]-[B]coffee[/B]-lawsuit.htm[/URL] [/COLOR]

[brazilgirl]

[quote name='Rosethorn40']I guess we can agree to disagree. I did watch the video you posted (Actually I watched both), and then did a little research on optimum coffee temperatures, on the internet I'm afraid, which is not the most reliable resource of information, so I won't stake my life on it, and this is what I found.

For coffee brewing, the [URL="http://scaa.org/"]Specialty Coffee Association of America[/URL] (SCAA) prescribes a water temperature of 92 - 96 degrees C (195 - 205 degrees F);

Optimal flavor is obtained by holding the coffee at high temperatures, at [U]least[/U] 170 degrees Fahrenheit.

Then I found this article, which I found very interesting because it had a bit of the jury viewpoint in it, and I felt it was balanced in it's findings (And pro plaintiff)

[COLOR=#009030][URL="http://www.vanosteen.com/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit.htm"]www.vanosteen.com/[B]mcdonalds[/B]-[B]coffee[/B]-lawsuit.htm[/URL] [/COLOR][/QUOTE]


Agreeing to disagree is always good , lol!

Just for some perspective , we own pathology labs and have been the victims of abusive , money seeking lawsuits. It really gets my goat.

But while I think we all most have personal responsibility , corporate and public responsibility is very important as well. I think McDonald's hubris was their downfall.

Coffee brewed at home is around 140 degrees , Mcdonalds is no served at 158 degrees and most establishments serve coffee at between 150 and 175. It is general consensus that over 180 is dangerous. Optimal flavor is obtained at higher temps ...you can opt , for example , at Starbucks to order it " extra hot".

Anyway , fun debate!

[RSLeesburg]

[quote name='brazilgirl']Agreeing to disagree is always good , lol!

Just for some perspective , we own pathology labs and have been the victims of abusive , money seeking lawsuits. It really gets my goat.

But while I think we all most have personal responsibility , corporate and public responsibility is very important as well. I think McDonald's hubris was their downfall.

Coffee brewed at home is around 140 degrees , Mcdonalds is no served at 158 degrees and most establishments serve coffee at between 150 and 175. It is general consensus that over 180 is dangerous. Optimal flavor is obtained at higher temps ...you can opt , for example , at Starbucks to order it " extra hot".

Anyway , fun debate![/QUOTE]

Interesting...I just a new Keurig, and the default water temperature is set to 192 degrees. I am sure what ends up in the cup is a little bit less. I guess no one there paid attention to this lawsuit, or they found that coffee tastes better when brewed at a higher temp.

[djhsolara]

We watched this 20/20 clip while we were on the Carnival Splendor last Friday. Each time we see something like this we always say that you have to be doing something wrong to fall from your balcony. I've never had a balcony railing that came lower than above my waist (and I'm 5'11")...so to fall over I would have first had to have been leaning over...way over. After watching the infrared camera shot we wondered if she wasn't standing on a chair or stool on the balcony, which would give her body leverage to fall over easily.


Douglas...Sent from my iPhone using [URL=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk[/URL]