Delta partners-Air France or KLM?

[SusieKay]

Planning to book one way flights as soon as they are available from Barcelona to Atlanta. We will be traveling home in May '16 at the end of a cruise using Delta miles for business class. KLM layovers @ AMS, Air France @ CDG. Have never traveled on either carrier or through either airport. Please compare their seat comfort, airport lounge, and ease of making connections and why you would recommend one over the other. And anything else I need to know. Thanks you so much.

[RickT]

Be prepared for a long list of replies both positive and negative about each airline. I've flown both numerous times (in economy) and prefer KLM as well as Schipol.

 

That being said, I take into consideration connection time and type of aircraft before making my final decision. I'd fly either if one had a better schedule/aircraft then the other.

 

Also, don't be so sure you won't wind up on a Delta flight. We've looked at using points and although both KLM and Air France have better connections, Delta always tries to route us through Detroit onto their plane rather than one operated by their partners.

[wowzz]

CDG is an absolute nightmare, especially if you have to switch terminals. Limited seating, and not many eating places.

Schipol is designed as a transit airport, and is very user friendly and is a delight to use. No contest in my book

[4774Papa]

CDG is an absolute nightmare, especially if you have to switch terminals. Limited seating, and not many eating places.

Schipol is designed as a transit airport, and is very user friendly and is a delight to use. No contest in my book

We have been Air France a few times and still get Delta Skymiles.

 

We very much like Air France. The service, food, wine, movie selections are usually very good.

Never been on KLM.

 

We have been through GCG more than a few times. My first time was in the 80s on TWA when they had their own funny looking terminal there.

 

CGD has changed a lot since then.

 

CDG can be a problem if you don't research the geography there.

Go to the website for the airport and print out the map of the airport with all terminals and connections between them.

If you have to change terminals, you can take the internal CDG transit. It is not hard to find at all.

 

What you do is check your flight going into CDG as well as going out and find out ahead of time which terminals. With Air France, it might be the same terminal, or it might be an adjacent one. Some terminals you can walk from one to the other.

 

We did a trip from JAX, Fla to Singapore via CDG and did an overnight at a hotel near CDG and visited Versailles on the RER. It was great.

[Zach1213]

While I have done minimal connections with AF and KL via CDG and AMS, I do have some experience and prefer Amsterdam. I still do think that AMS tends to be overrated, but it also tends to be fairly efficient...just not that nice, fancy or comfortable.

 

I would lean AMS if given the choice.

 

I have not flown KLM longhaul, but their intra-Europe product has been nice. I've flown AF longhaul a few times, all in economy unfortunately, and have found them enjoyable enough.

 

Definitely keep an eye out if you're actually flying AF/KL or DL, since they all codeshare on each other and it can be confusing if you're not aware of what to look out for.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Zach1213

[FlyerTalker]

WARNING: Long detailed post to follow. Sit back and absorb.

 

OK...you are flying TATL in business using SkyTeam members. You are looking for the best experience, including aircraft, airports and service. Route will be BCN-ATL. (Thanks for great parameters).

Leaving BCN: First let's look at your options from BCN. KL has a few flights to AMS, while there is more service to CDG on AF. Both airlines use 737/320 type aircraft, have Euro-business, which is a 3-3 coach seat with moveable armrests to make a wider seat with no middle (a defacto 2-2). Both are nothing to write home about, though you do get some more attention and a nicer meal. Flew on both recently and think that AF is a wee bit better seat, but it's basically a coin flip.

 

Airports: CDG has changed mightily over the last five years. With the additional concourses added to T2E, all of the AF and DL flights are now consolidated into T2E and T2F, with F handling intra-Schengen and E handling extra-Shengen. Connections are much easier than in the past - you would arrive at F and there are several connection options to E, depending on your gate location. The new concourses for extra-Schengen are much nicer than the intra-Schengen facility in F, which is far more utilitarian in approach.

 

AMS is an airport built for connections. However, it is currently undergoing a huge construction project, so that many shops and facilities are closed off. Also, the moving walkways on "Holland Blvd" are shut down. I don't know the status of the project to know what the situation will be in May.

 

Both airports are huge, and you will do some walking at either. I like them both, so it's another coin flip, with a slight edge going to CDG because of the new T2E concourses. Had it been a straight Schengen to Schengen connect, I'd much prefer AMS over T2F.

 

Lounges: KL has two lounges at AMS, one for the Schengen area and one for Extra-Schengen. Consequently, they are huge but functional. Most all seats have a power point and lamp. There are many shower rooms but also big demand (more important in the opposite direction flights). A couple of hot food items and plenty to snack on (meats, cheeses, bread/cake/cookies) Wifi is fast. I personally find the brown seats with the adjacent "table" area to be super comfy.

 

AF has multiple lounges at CDG. In T2F, there is one at the end of each "finger". They are functional, with minimalist decor. Food is down from KL, beverage selection a bit up. The multiple T2E lounges are much bigger and nicer (perhaps a function of being newer). More food options, more comfortable seating and more space.

 

For an intra-Schengen connect, I'd be going with KL all the way for lounge. For extra-Schengen, it's more of a toss-up, with a small edge to AF in T2E.

Aircraft: Now it gets tough. You may have DL, AF or KL as the operator of your flights. Remember that I am thinking of ANY TATL routing, not just into ATL. To get business award seats at the lowest level, you may need some creative routing. Also, DL has more revenue demand through ATL (due to hubbing) so award availability is often less on ATL-Europe flights than those from JFK/DTW or other gateways.

 

DL has true flat-beds on all of their equipment. The 767 seats are the "coffin" variety, where your legs go under the armrest of the seat in front of you. 330/747 uses "reverse herringbone" with the head near the aisle, and 777 uses "herringbone" with the feet near the aisle. The 767 has lots of space with the wide armrest (though you have to have it clear to open/close the tray table). It is cramped in the foot area when sleeping. The 330/747 are more private, though the middles do have some ability for contact with the seat-mate. The 777 seats are most private, with no real ease for couples who want to chat/interact through the flight.

 

AF has mostly "angle-flat" seats, which have a flat bed surface, but are not level with the cabin floor. They are introducing a new level-flat reverse-herringbone seat on their 777s, but who knows how long that will take for implementation. One big negative to AF is that their 777s are 2-3-2 in business, which is a BIG drawback vs a 2-2-2 arrangement like the 330/340.

 

KL is a mix. They have a slanted seat akin to AF on their 330s, but are introducing a new flat-bed product on the 747 and 777. This should make the KL Boeing aircraft quite attractive. The 330 seat is perfectly servicable, especially westbound on TATL where sleeping is not as high a priority as eastbound. One item of note...even with fully flat, the KL product does NOT give every passenger aisle access. Window seats still have to climb over their flight partner in the aisle.

 

For eastbound TATL where sleep is a priority, the DL seats have the edge. Fully flat, aisle access for all in business - tough to beat unless you have a specific AF/KL aircraft to compare against. Westbound all are good, though you won't have full aisle access on AF/KL and the middle on the AF 777 is less than desirable.

 

Service and other: The DL product is Americanized good, not great. AF has some nicer food options and KL is efficient and professional. One treat on KL is that all biz passengers get one of the famed KLM "houses" - a Delft porcelain house with a shot of gin inside. (search online for more info).

 

Some additional SkyPesos redemption thoughts: In case you are stuck in finding availability into ATL, look for alternative routings than what first comes to mind. Aside from going straight to ATL or JFK, you have these other SkyTeam gateways: BOS EWR PHL IAD ORD DFW DTW IAH MEM MIA PIT CVG MSP SLC SEA PDX SFO LAX YUL YYZ YYC, YVR. One tip is to try to find the TATL segment first and then work out how to connect on both ends.

 

Award seats are always hard to find from a cruise port on day of arrival. Consider an alternative day and spend some time in BCN.

 

Alternative airline tips: You mentioned AF and KL, but you can also utilize AZ, UX, AM and VS for your trip. Alitalia (AZ) may be either an intra-Europe option (into Rome, then onward to AMS/CDG) or a TATL option itself. FWIW, flew on AZ recently and it was quite fine. The situation currently at FCO is difficult due to the recent fire, but should be fine come May. AirEuropa (UX) has service from BCN that may facilitate getting to a Euro-gateway, especially on cruise day. The DL website does not show their flights and agents often don't know about it, so it can be a useful alternative, albeit adding additional connections. AeroMexico (AM) is the unknown SkyTeam partner across the Atlantic - they service LHR, CDG and MAD into MEX. Yes, you would need to overnight at MEX, but there are hotels (Hilton and NH) in each of the MEX terminals, so no need to leave the buildings. You could route to ATL that way. Finally, a great business class option is Virgin Atlantic (VS) though LHR. Their Clubhouse lounge is worth the routing effort just to experience it. (They have a huge well-stocked bar with great bartenders, Jaccuzzi, steam and sauna, spa services, deli, full sit-down restaurant service, pool table and more). Personally, I'm trying to find a way to have about a 10 hour connect there, just so I can experience the whole product - it's like an all-inclusive luxury hotel. Yes, you would have to get from BCN to LHR, involving another connection, but you might find it worth the effort. Also, VS has fully flat on all of the TATL aircraft, so it's a great alternative to AF/KL in that regard, along with some excellent inflight service.

Final thought about convoluted routings: As Mrs FT says: "As long as it's in the pointy end of the plane, it will work out".

 

Hope this has addressed some of your questions and given you food for thought.

[iancal]

We would definitely take AMS over CDG. Cannot comment on AF but economy on KLM from NA to AMS was fine for us. Average, not stunning. We actually went through AMS to avoid LHR.

Edited June 3, 2015 by iancal

[waterbug123]

I have transited both CDG and AMS but not often. I did not care for having to be bussed from plane to terminal at CDG and inside the airport at CDG I found most staff to be in keeping with the reputation of the French: indifferent at best, downright rude at worst. That said, once on the plane the FA's on the AF flights I've been on have been wonderful, the food (even in coach) for TATL flight was very good and the wine was free flowing.

 

I found AMS easier to get from point A to point B, and all staff friendly, both in the terminal and on the plane. I've only been on KLM intra-Europe though, not TATL (yet.) I do know that in the past they have had gate-side security which is a pain, as it gets very crowded, but they are changing this and I believe it's supposed to be finished some time this month so that all security is more centralized.

[breeze123]

I've flown business through CDG and AMS on both AF and KLM. I think that AMS is much more efficient and easier to transit through than CDG. Yes, you'll walk a distance in either airport, but I do think AMS is better.

 

I do feel like service on both is fairly equal. The Delta service has always been better in my experience.

[SusieKay]

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies! A special thank you to flyertalker for taking the time to provide so much excellent, useful information. We want to minimize connections and travel time but aware that may not be possible and appreciate the options suggested.

Yes, we do plan a post cruise stay in Barcelona-not sure how long, it will depend on the flights, so we will have some flexibility when booking.

Suggestions please for a reasonable connection time to look for in CDG or AMS. We are late 60's, thankfully in good health with no mobility issues.

[4774Papa]

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies! A special thank you to flyertalker for taking the time to provide so much excellent, useful information. We want to minimize connections and travel time but aware that may not be possible and appreciate the options suggested.

Yes, we do plan a post cruise stay in Barcelona-not sure how long, it will depend on the flights, so we will have some flexibility when booking.

Suggestions please for a reasonable connection time to look for in CDG or AMS. We are late 60's, thankfully in good health with no mobility issues.

2 hours

[Ine]

The 747 and 777 of KLM in Businessclass are all beds now.

[FlyerTalker]

The 747 and 777 of KLM in Businessclass are all beds now.

Thanks for the update. As I noted, they were being switched over - just wasn't aware of the time frame.

 

This now makes the KL 777 a very attractive alternative.

[FlyerTalker]

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies! A special thank you to flyertalker for taking the time to provide so much excellent, useful information. We want to minimize connections and travel time but aware that may not be possible and appreciate the options suggested.

You are quite welcome. FWIW, even with a lot of "tools" at my disposal, I was unable to get myself and Mrs FT out of BCN last year through either AMS or CDG or FCO. I went with the combination of UX/AM/AS - AirEuropa to MAD, then AeroMexico to MEX, then Alaska home. Don't discount it, as it would only be a three-segment to Atlanta.

Suggestions please for a reasonable connection time to look for in CDG or AMS. We are late 60's, thankfully in good health with no mobility issues.

I want at least 2 hours in either location. Partially to cover inbound delays, partially to cover ground issues, and mostly so I don't have to run through the airport and can actually enjoy the break in the lounge. If I have good DF shopping to browse (such as World of Whiskeys at LHR)

add in another 30 minutes. Remember...you have a good place to spend the connection time, rather than those who are waiting in the gate areas. :)

[SusieKay]

Update: I was able to get those business classs seats out of BCN as soon as the booking window opened for the date I wanted. It helped to be flying on a Tuesday.

BCN-AMS-IAD on KLM, with a good 4 hr layover in AMS. Early am dep from BCN (yawn).

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

[Fairfield Nana]

I'm really curious-- what is the secret to using Delta frequent flyer miles to upgrade to Business class for US to Europe? I may have the world's record for creative excuses or turn-downs from them every time I've tired to do this!

[SusieKay]

It was not an upgrade. I had the required number of miles to purchase the ticket using just miles. You can see online the miles you need for the flights you want.

[alcpa1]

For international flights you can only upgrade with miles on a K or higher (cash) fare OR you can book the entire bc fare with miles.